New Owner 1927 Touring

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: New Owner 1927 Touring
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 06:03 pm:

Well, I have finally purchased my first model T, A 1927 Touring car. The end of the line for Lizzie. This car was assembled in January from what I have found about the engine number. Now to get it back into top shape and get to driving it, this brings me to my first problem.

It seems the transmission is way out of adjustment. I could step on the reverse or engage low speed and the car wouldn't really go anywhere. To that end, I opened up the transmission and adjusted all the bands. I turned the adjusters a full 2 turns on all bands. Now the car is very responsive and moves when the peddle is depressed. This however created another problem. The transmission now has a very loud chatter and when I try to engage high gear the car bounces violently and dies. I had to limp back home on my subdivision streets in low gear.

Did I take the bands in too far? Do I need new bands? Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

If the bands are to tight, when you have the E brake half way the car will move, if the bands are fine it should set there an idle and no movement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 08:00 pm:

The pedals should bottom out about 1" to 1 1/2 inch above the floor board. There is quite a bit of play in before it is tight against the drum. If it is too tight, it could be quite possibly be engaging two gears at once, which would lock up the transmission and kill the engine. The adjustment of the bands ordinalily does not affect high gear unless your bands are too tight. It is best not to drive it with them too tight as it could lead to overheating and cracking the drums. If you can find someone who lives in your area who is familiar with Model T's it would be a good time to get acquainted and also ask for some hands on advice. If your pedals bottom out when about 1 inch above the floor, the problem could be in your experience shifting into high. The throttle should be pushed up to idle as you shift from low to high, and then when you get the pedal all the way out, increase the throttle to reach the desired speed. If you try to shift into high with the engine reved up, it is quite likely to chatter and perhaps slip, or kill the engine. Anyway, a helping hand would be very good. It's hard to diagnose problems over the web.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:02 pm:

Joe, it does sound like band adjustments are out of spec. It helps if you do the adjustments one at a time, and bit by bit. Do you know what type of bands were installed?

To start again, I would suggest you back off all the adjustments. Then adjust the low speed band so that it has about 1" of travel left before it hits the floorboards. Test drive the car to see if bottom gear engages and does not slip. Repeat this adjustment until the car will drive in first gear with no slippage.

Then do the same with the reverse band. Both these bands are supposed to grip the drum with no slippage when you are using them.

The brake band does slip in operation, as the car slows. It will stop slipping when the car stops. If the terrain will allow it, it is best to let your foot off the brake once stopped, to allow the bands to cool. This adjustment works the same way as the others.

If you find you have Kevlar bands in the car, I would say you are fortunate, as these are far more robust at the feet of a novice driver. I adjust these only enough to get efficient operation. Avoid the temptation to give them a bit more adjustment, just to save having to re-adjust sooner. The looser the adjustment the greater the chance of cooler running bands and better lubrication, but just be sure they are efficient.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 03:13 pm:

Allen R B touched on an important point. The type of band linings makes a big difference in the amount and tendency for chatter. There are basically four types.
1. The soft cotton type. These are a woven fabric. They vary from very soft to moderately hard. Can be white to dark brown depending upon manufacturer, age, oil contamination, and other factors.
2. Woven Kevlar. Looks very similar to the cotton, but made from an extremely tough modern material. They start out as a yellow-greenish color and usually do not change a lot from oil contamination.
3. Wood bands have been around for a long time. Now they are mostly made by one fellow who does a nice job. They are, wood.
4. Other type of braking/friction materials. These may be linings adapted from automatic transmission linings, large truck emergency brake linings, hard type modern linings, etc. Many of these are woven type, they may or may not have brass fibers woven in.

There is a lot of debate about which is best. It is generally agreed that most all of number four is the worst. Most of them chatter a lot. Many of them wear the drums heavily. And if it has the brass fibers, they can work out and short the T magneto. Generally all bad.
Original type cotton is preferred by many serious model T people. They have learned the gentle touch to make them work best and get a lot of miles out of them. Many other people hate them because without that gentle touch, they wear out fast.
Kevlar is a love-hate choice. They do not wear out fast. But a lot of transmission drums are broken using them. They do have the capability of generating too much heat in the drums and denying enough oil. The debate is whether the drums break because of the Kevlar, or because of the inexperienced T driver. The trick is to use it because it is tough and lasts, but to use it with the gentle touch like they were cotton.
Wood linings are considered by many to be the best of both. Wood is less able to wipe the drum dry of oil. In part therefore it generates less heat than the Kevlar. It (usually!) wears very well.
I usually stay out of the debates on which is best. I rarely mention this, but about twenty years ago, I used a set of wood linings, and I had a bad one. About two years later, a close friend of mine had an experience where all three were bad. This soured me on wood linings. But I read from so many people that love them and they work so well and so long. I cannot say too much against them.
Cotton chatters the least. Kevlar and wood do chatter more, but if properly adjusted, and used with a proper light touch, should not chatter much.
That light touch I refer to. Mostly, do not overuse the bands. Use the throttle to slow down, do not keep hitting the bands like you would the brakes in a modern car.
When the car is stopped, and you begin to move, either low forward or reverse. It is tricky to get used to. Press the pedal lightly at first, on and off, then harder on and off till the the car begins to move. This takes practice. Then, once the car begins to move, press the pedal hard, lock that drum tight. Do not let the bands slip because that is what wears out the lining. Hold tight until you reach your destination or shift speed, then release the pedal.
When shifting from low to high, lower the throttle and release the pedal at the same time, then raise the throttle back to pull the car up to your desired speed.
The high speed clutch. There are several options on it also. I am firmly die-hard use the original model T 25 steel disc clutch. Properly adjusted, they work great, and last forever. There are several modern variations. Many people swear by them. I don't really want to debate that subject. (And people who know me know that I am an opinionated SOB and will debate many things.) Any model T clutch can chatter or slip if you do not throttle back properly.

Welcome to the affliction!
That is a beautiful model T touring car.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 04:23 pm:

Joe, that is a very nice looking first car!

By the way, my magneto Gaussmeter works great, thanks for the tip!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 07:35 am:

Joe, there's something that wasn't covered very clearly here yet. You don't operate these pedals like the clutch in a modern car, you don't 'slip' them. You want to firmly apply pressure to the bands and stop the drum from turning all at once.
When you start out, you want your engine RPM just high enough to move the car without stalling and you want to press firmly down on the pedal all at once to get the car moving forward. Once it's moving you advance the throttle. Same procedure is true for reverse but usually you won't advance the throttle. As for the brakes, apply release, apply release, apply release. allowing oil to get between the drum and the brake band to help keep the drum cool, especially if you have Kevlar bands. You don't want any more clearance between the pedals and the floor than it takes to apply the pedals without them touching the floor. About an inch is usually a good rule of thumb. It takes a few drives to get used to how to operate these cars but once you get used to it, it becomes second nature. While you have the transmission cover off is a good time to buy the aftermarket filter screen and install it, if you car doesn't already have one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 08:03 am:

Dennis

I have a question about your statement:

"You want to firmly apply pressure to the bands and stop the drum from turning all at once. "

I am not disagreeing with it ... just trying to learn. I took a ride with another (very experienced) T owner recently who used this method and it resulted in rather violet jerks as low was engaged and when shifting to high.

That doesn't seem right, and yet I understand that quick application of the bands results in less wear on both bands and drums.

So... is there a happy medium?

Thanks
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 08:39 am:

When shifting into high it's the clutch that's involved, no band. Lower the gas momentarily - you can retard the ignition too - when letting the clutch up into high and meet with the gas much like when shifting any manual trans. Jerking into high causes unnecessary strain to the clutch - and to the lugs inside the brake drum. More of a problem on earlier T's up to '25, your improved Ford has lug shoes to prevent the brake drum from looking like this:
worn lugs
(Pic by Steve Tomaso)
But 26/27 lug shoes can break causing shrapnel damage around the engine, so they should also be threated with some care


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 08:41 am:

Jerking aplication of the low speed band is going to be hard on the webs of the drums, rather, apply peddles for high, low and reverse with a minimum of slippage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 09:50 am:

Joe, you need to slip the first gear and reverse pedals as they engage, to prevent jerks. The idea is to get the car rolling and then hold the pedal down firmly to prevent more slippage and consequent wear. You will easily get the hang of it with a little bit of practise.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 11:48 am:

Thanks for all the comments so far. I have been definitely doing my homework and research on how to properly operate one of these machines.

I am working to correct my carburetor linkage problem right now. Since this car would have originally had a vaporizer, the engine is not cross drilled between cylinders 2 and 3 for the carburetor linkage. It was converted to a Holley NH at some time in its past. The linkage cable going over the top of the block, and then bent down to the throttle plate, was improperly set, causing me to have idle and wide open with nothing in between.

I'll post a more thorough update (with pictures) once I get home from work this evening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

so here is what the carburetor set-up looked like when I purchased the car

and this is what the set-up looks like now that I have converted it. My only problem is the throttle rod that I purchased from langs is a little too short, as it does not allow me to fully retract the lever to the very top.


Question on timers? I have to tackle this project next, not because I want to. the link pin that connects the timer advance lever to the control rod broke so I need to replace/repair that. I have also noticed that No 1 cylinder is not firing. I have no spark when I ground the plug out. I must be grounding out someplace? could the timer be bad? what is the real difference between the ford roller timer and the others that are available?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 12:32 am:

Check the wires at the timer to be sure the crimped sides of the terminals are facing the front side of the timer.
It's also possible to get a wire between the timer housing and block and you may not notice it.....I didn't.......
Have you tried interchanging coils?
Is the timer clean?
Are all the connections at the coil box clean and tight?
Is that particular spark plug wire good?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 01:17 am:

I can't tell from the picture how that vertical rod connects to the throttle shaft. Is any adjustment possible there?


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