Replacing Bands

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Replacing Bands
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

New owner of a 1919 touring and I am starting to replace the bands. I have a couple of basic questions.

1. Do I remove all of the bands at once; thinking it would give me more room but I am using the band tool from Langs that wraps around the drum. I only have one tool and cant thread all of them with it.

2. Reading the directions it says I need to soak the new bands in oil prior to installation. Do I soak them before or after they are riveted to the metal bands?

3. might be a stupid question but do I drill holes through the bands to get the rivets through them? Doesn't seem like they would push through easily without bending the rivets.

Thanks for the help. I have learned quite a bit from you guys and truly enjoy your posts and have learned alot just by reading and searching through old posts. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:32 pm:

Brain - remove them carefully one at a time, and dont lose washers or nuts in the transmission cavity! Be careful! If you lay the band material along the band when installing you can use a very nice sharp pointed awl of punch for the holes. And yes soak them overnight in automatic transmission fluid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:33 pm:

Remove all bands at once. Replace one at a time. Stuff trans with rags to prevent loose parts from falling in. Remove ignition key. Count rags when removed to make sure you got them all. Put in one band, slide it in to position and use zip ties to hold it closed and in place. Then put in next one and so on. Linings are soaked after installation on band and before insertion in trans. No holes drilled. Rivet will make its own hole.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:33 pm:

Oh yea, soak them after installing, and dont bend the bands!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:33 pm:

Jonn is a faster typer and has more details.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:36 pm:

but I do like Dougs rag idea - and counting them! Kind of like surgery - make sure you account for everything!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

Also a good idea to get the books that show how to do it with the service manual. Steve Jelf always jumps in with the public service announcement so I will leave that up to him. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

I just changed bands in my '27 Tudor yesterday.
It's NOT a fun job even with the "quick change" (yeah right) bands.
As you have the old style bands your procedure will be different........and a bit (lot) more difficult.
Another unpleasant job is to R&R the hogs head but that would give you the opportunity to convert the low/high adjuster for new style bands.
I suggest you beg, borrow, steal or buy the Model T Ford Service manual.
I'd scan and email the pertinent pages for you if you'd like....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

If your hogshead is a 1919 you may have to remove the hogshead to get the bands out. Does your low pedal shaft slide inside the low gear adjusting screw? Do you have quick change bands? If the pedal shaft goes through the entire length of the spring and into the adjusting screw you will have to remove the hogshead. The idea when install the rivets is to push the tangs through the weave of the band and not actually cut through it. A gentle tap on the rivet head will push the tangs through.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 12:52 am:

Brian,
You can find the service manual instructions for replacing the bands starting on page 136 at:
http://mtfci2002.readyhosting.com/manuals/Model_T_Service_Manual/mtsm.html

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:27 am:

We all forgot to ask, what type of band material are you using?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse--Granville,Ohio on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 11:04 am:

I`d only add that I never have "soaked" new bands in oil or trans fluid, prior to final installation (even wood bands). They get plenty of oil the first time you run the engine. Soaking them before installation just make more of a mess and makes them more difficult, slippery, to install.Never had any problems doing it this way,for many years, but guess its OK to presoak if this improves your "comfort index"...Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 11:39 am:

Sorry I'm late. I was busy. Here's what Doug was talking about.

The first Model T parts every new owner should buy are these.


The Model T is simple but different. Things are not always put together as you expect. The Ford shop manual and the MTFCA books can save you lots of grief, hassle, and expense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

You don't say whether or not you have the removable ears. If you do, they should be placed on the same side as the pedals. Remove the reverse band first, then the low band by sliding it forward and then the brake band. They come off best if you slide forward past the drums. Same way to replace them except reverse the order.

When you get ready to remove the nuts, washers, and springs it is best done with rags stuffed around the drums and gears. Note do not rotate the transmission with the rags in place, they could get caught in the gears making a problem when you try to remove them. The rags should also be used after you replace the bands but before you install the springs, washers and nuts.

The nuts and washers can very easily be lost into the transmission depths if you don't use the rags, as the bands are spring loaded and as soon as you reach the end of the threads the band will spring out and knock the nut and washer out of your hand. So be sure to use the rags.

When installing the bands, start at the ends. Put in the first rivet at one end, then go to the other end and place a rivet. You will think the band material is too long, but it comes from the supplier cut to the proper length. It should be about 1/8 inch past the end of the steel band when the first two rivets are placed. Then you work the band material toward the center until it is pressed flat against the steel. Do not make the mistake of starting at one end and working to the other end. If you do, the band material will be stretched from rivet to rivet and not lay tight against the steel, causing a spongy pedal and never being able to get a good adjustment leading to early failure and possible cracked drums. Next alternate between the two ends until all rivets have been placed. Next soak in oil overnight. This is important, because it takes a while to get the oil soaked into the bands and will experience greater wear, and need more frequent adjustments soon after you start driving unless the bands are oil soaked first.

This is how I place the rivets. I clamp a small block of wood into my vise and put the lining side down. I hammer the rivet into the band and into the wood, then pull the rivet out of the wood leaving it through the band. Next I turn the band over and place the rivet head on a hard surface and use a tool which you can get from the vendors with the hammer to clinch the ends of the rivet. When done properly, they will spread out perpendicular to the sides of the band, so that they will lay across the face of the drum. They will also be sunk into the band lining so as not to scrape directly on the drum.

If you use wood bands, you will need to ask someone else, because I have no experience installing the wood band linings.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 07:48 pm:

Joe,

Great looking T! Your profile has you listed in St Louis MO and there is a local T club in your town see: http://stlmodeltclub.org/index.html and there are a lot of contact numbers and e-mail addresses at: http://stlmodeltclub.org/contactus.html . Having someone who can stop by and look at the situation can be very helpful. T¡¦s tend to be noisy and underpowered compared to modern cars. What might be a good operating T might not seem that way to someone who has not had one before. And on the opposite side, if you only have ridden in one T a couple of times, you may think it is performing well and it is much slower than the average T of the same year range and body. [In general everything else being equal the lighter runabouts and tourings stop and accelerate better than the sedans ¡V just because the sedans weigh more.]

If you do not want to ask one of the folks to help you, then my "next best recommendation" would be the MTFCA Pamphlet on rebuilding and adjusting the transmission available from the vendors as well as the club at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/service-manuals title: THE MODEL T TRANSMISSION . The information is probably also on one of the CDs that the club sells, but I do not know which one covers the band adjustment. They are also available from the vendors.

If you check out the local club, in addition to having members who can be a great help, they may have a library where you can check out a booklet or video on the transmission. Many of the booklets and videos are very helpful ¡V but often times we only need them when we are doing a certain job and after that -- we may not need them again for years. For example rebuilding the rear axle. Hopefully we do that once and it will last for many years of driving.

You may be doing every thing correctly -- but if you are tightening up the bands and they do not have adequate band material left of them -- you could be causing your transmission drums some major issues. There is also a chance the person you purchased the car from would have some recommendations. For example if the previous owner had recently installed Kevlar bands and never readjusted them, it isn't uncommon for them to need a little adjusting after they have first been installed (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25760.html By Dave_Sosnoski on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 01:27 am ) See also the posting on bands at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/288351.html .

If you haven't read the safety items at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/295548.html scroll down to By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 08:00 am -- recommend you take a look at them. Especially if you have a gas or propane hot water heater in the same garage the Model T is parked.

Again great looking touring! I'm sure you will get it sorted out soon.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

Stuff the transmission when you open things up with plenty of rags!! Every little cavity and small open area stuff with rags!!
This can save you Much Grief and Misery if you drop something down in that bottomless pit and the rags catch it.
Read the instruction manuals that are shown in the pics on this thread. You can change the bands. It takes a little patience the first time around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 09:52 pm:

Paul - sorry, but as far as soaking - thats just my and many peoples preference, and it isnt messy, it isnt slippery and it isnt any more difficult. How would you know it makes them messy, slippery and more difficult if you have never soaked yours?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 10:37 pm:

Guys thanks for all the advice. To answer your questions I am installing kevlar bands and it does have removal ears. I hope to find enough time this weeks to do the install and will give you an update. Thanks again


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 06:18 am:

I've done quite a few bands and here's my take:

Kevlar does not soak up anything. It's a synthetic fiber. I've soaked Kevlar bands and let them drain for a day and they're practically dry...the only thing remaining is dampness from capillary action of the proximity of the fibers to themselves in the weave. It's much easier to pour 4 quarts of oil over the bands after they're installed. A several hour wait while everything else is buttoned up, and then a 10 minute idle after the first start, and the bands are plenty lubricated for their first gentle drive. 8 or 9 sets of bands in as many cars, lots of tours and even more miles, and I'm still waiting for premature wear or failure, though if bands aren't round or true, all bets are off.

Didn't see mentioned, but you really REALLY have to have the bands round when they're at the "installed" diameter...also need to be shaped so that they're not twisted. Find someone who can donate a transmission drum for you to fit the bands to...

Your first set of bands is a TOUGH job to do on your own and if you are doing it through the hog's head door, you're more than likely going to distort those nicely formed bands. I highly suggest going the extra mile and pull the hog's head to do the job (do it once and be done with it).

Finally, don't do the job without ensuring that the cams on all 3 pedals are working correctly and not worn. If worn, you will have to carry a very "high" pedal to get the bands to work and brother that WILL bring trouble. This is the time to make sure they're in good shape when the Hog's head is off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 12:00 am:

I have removed the bands and installed the new linings on them. So far pretty easy....just need to be patient. Although some said not to soak kevlar I am soaking them overnight. Just finished installing the linings just shy of midnight and wasn't going to install tonight anyhow. Figured soaking then can't hurt and may provide peace of mind.

Any advice on an easy installation into hogshead?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 12:39 am:

I trust you have the new gaskets and felt seal for the hogshead?
I "glued" the felt, hogshead gasket and half of a ball cap gasket to the car first and let them set up for awhile.
When I got up the ambition to wrestle with the top I slopped up all the corners real well with silicone sealer.
Have the bands centered at the top (I used plastic ties) and work the cover toward the rear so you don't screw up the ball cap gasket.
THAT part should go fairly smoothly.
Get the cover bolted down before the sealer sets up too much.
Then you can swear yourself to.......er.......get the springs, washers (make SURE they are oriented the CORRECT way) and nuts installed.
I used an the sleeve of an old flannel shirt to pack the hogshead in case I dropped something.......but I didn't....... :-)
Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 01:25 am:

Brian, just a little hint. Though the purpose of the rags stuffed in the transmission is to catch any parts it's also good to tie a length of dental floss onto the springs, nuts and washers when you go to put them in. The floss is thin and won't create an interference when threading the nut on and a good tug will break it off. As far as removing the hogshead. getting the bands around the drums and in place is the easy part. The hard part is the job of holding the ends of the bands while placing the washers and springs on the end of the pedal shafts and keeping the shafts from slipping backwards. I seriously believe it's time for someone to come up with a specialty tool like a vise grip with thin jaws to hold the bands closed while sliding the spring over the pedal shaft and putting the washer on (with the bump facing away from the spring) and then threading the nut on (with the notch toward the washer).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 11:29 am:

After you get the hogs head in place, run the car for a while, drive it around and adjust the bands as necessary. You might find some small leaks around the hogs head where it seals to the crankcase. These can usually be sealed by wiping the area clean with solvent and then smearing some gasket sealer right over the area with your finger. Try to force it into the space between the gasket and the steel parts. That will usually stop the leak without having to remove and start all over again. The two bolts nearest the engine at the ends of the hogs head are easy to over tighten, and if you do, it will crack the hogs head. especially because of the felt seal in front. It is best to tighten the bolts starting in the center and working out toward the ends. Do in several stages so as to get the tension more equally distributed.
Norm


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