Help with Transmission

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Help with Transmission
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Guy Kayser on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 02:17 pm:

Took a short ride and the transmission started clanking/rattling. I took off the inspection cover and everything looks fine. Could it be possible that the clutch is stuck in? it seems that the clutch forks don't come back or possibly stuck between high and low gears? I was able to limp home, but then I couldn't stop it. Had to shut engine off and pull emergency break to stop. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 02:25 pm:

Triple gear pin or drum broken???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 06:57 pm:

Guy, are you sure its the transmission? Noise from the rear end can transmit up the torque tube, also might want to check the u joint. Have fun , KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 07:15 pm:

I think you nailed it when you said you had to pull the emergency brake to stop. Sounds to me like the problem is in your rear axle. that sort of problem would make the clanking noise and also affect the braking. Something is bad between the universal joint and the wheels. Most likely the alignment of the ring and pinion gears caused by a bad thrust washer. A quick check would be to jack up both rear wheels and with the emergency brake off, pull out and in on the rear wheels. There should be little noticeable endplay in the axles. If they will move a considerable amount, it is your thrust washers and you will need to disassemble the rear axle assembly to further inspect for worn parts.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

Is it a rattle or a crunching sound?
If it's more of a crunchy sound it might be the drive shaft bushing flange that keeps the joint in place and holds the entire driveshaft forward.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:00 pm:

Guy,

Your profile doesn't say what year T you have. If it is one of 1909-1925 models with the cast iron style brake shoes -- recommend you not drive it until you figure out what the problem is (unless you have some good accessory brakes etc.). Any failure in the drive line from the brake drum back to the rear axle keyways can cause total loss of the normal foot brake on the transmission. Unlike today's cars that if a wheel brake fails there is a valve so the other brakes can still do some stopping on the T the transmission brake either works on both wheels or not at all. And unlike today's the 1909-25 emergency brake was really more of a parking brake. I.e. when you stop the car you could put it on and it was ok for that task. It originally was metal shoes on a metal drum. Some have been replaced with a lined shoe -- a great accessory. And of course the 1926-27 larger drum rear alxe has a lined emergency brake.

For photos of rear axle babbit thrust washer failure please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/295678.html?1339633408

You may have some other issue -- but if it is the thrust bearing failing you will soon have "No Brakes" from the transmission brake pedal [again unless you have an accessory brake system also hooked up to that same pedal].

If you look at the chapter listings there is a good chance there are some folks near you that could offer assistance/advice etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Guy Kayser on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

Thanks to all who responded with ideas. Just wanted you to know that after further process of elimination, I isolated the noise at the rear end. Is it possible to split the rear end casing without pulling out of the car? Thanks, Guy. It's a 1924 Coupe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 06:10 pm:

I figured that it would be the differential. My T had the same problem! I was lucky and I still could use the transmission brake, but if I tried to stop too fast, the pinion gear would start skipping teeth.

Also, it's not really possible to split the differential without pulling it out of the car. I know. I've tried. However, I will say that pulling apart the differential is actually not as big a task as it would seem. My brother and I rebuilt my differential in the parking lot of our apartments! Here's a picture of my brother standing next to it:

T Differential Rebuild


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 06:12 pm:

Yes, but it's more work than just pulling the rear end. IMHO.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 06:20 pm:

Wait a moment... I'm just theorizing here, so don't take this as fact!

It MAY be possible to take the rear end apart without taking it out of the car. The key would be to remove the driver's side housing, NOT the passenger's side. That way, you can pull the gear housing itself out, and leave the pinion gear in place with the 3 bolts in the other half of the housing. In all honesty, you will probably have to remove the pinion gear completely at some point in time to set the gear mesh.

And one last friendly piece of advice... When you put everything back together, make sure that you put the ring gear on the driver's side, NOT the passenger's side! If you do it the other way around, everything will go together just fine, but when you try to drive it, you'll find that you have 1 speed forward and 2 speeds in reverse!

Hope this helps!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 07:29 pm:

It's quick and easy to remove the rear end from the car. Then it's much easier to work on it. It is possible to open it up under the car, but I think it's more work that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 01:28 pm:

Guy -- page down in the 2012 forum and find the April 24 12:32 thread. It will give you some info about repairing the thrust bearings with the rear end in the car. Be sure to follow the ling in the first post for more info.

I did the thrust bearing change on the car and if I ever do it again I'll take the rear out of the car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 02:56 pm:

I'm surprised you didn't get evicted for doing that Cameron !! And no wobbley-pops to be seen !!

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 03:17 pm:

The only thing you will not need to remove if you leave the rear axle in the car is the 4 bolts around the universal joint and the right hand brake rod and spring shackle. It is saver to remove the rear end because you risk danger of the car falling on you only when you remove it and replace it, but the pulling and tugging necessary to remove one half of the axle housing could cause the car to fall unless you are able to hang the body from the roof or other such stable object. Anyway, there is more to replacing the thrust washers than merely replace and bolt up. To do a good job you need to get the endplay in the axle to a minimum while maintaining a good mesh of the ring and pinion gears. This can only be done by following the instructions in the booklet Rear Axle or the booklet Ruckstell Axle. Also, if the problem had come on gradually or even suddenly, it could cause extreme wear on the gears, and the only way to replace them would be to remove and completely disassemble.

The process of rebuilding is not hard for an amatuer to do with simple tools. Only special tools you need are wheel puller and pinion gear puller, and axle sleeve puller. The wheel puller and sleeve puller are available for nominal cost from the vendors, and the pinion puller from an auto parts store or craftsman. Some feeler gauges are a good tool to have as well.
Norm


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