On one of the earlier threads regarding Model T steering, I mentioned a couple friends of mine recommending a front end stabilizer but did not have any experience with it myself. They drive their cars a lot and said they wouldn’t be without one. These are marketed as a Fix for shimmying. The front end of my car has a recent rebuild with no problems. I decided to try the stabilizer on the safety recommendation of my friends. I found it does greatly improve the safety. I have driven T’s since 1975; I’ve come close to rolling a T several times after unexpectedly hitting broken pavement on the edge of the road with the quick steering of a Model T. After installing the stabilizer, I drove out and hit a few of these bad areas on purpose to see if it would make a difference, the steering reacted almost like a normal car. Another plus: while backing the car up, it stayed straight and stable. I would not buy one of these as a band-aid to an ailing front end. Any of the cars that I drive a lot will now have one on them.
It didn't take very many near disasters to convince me to buy a steering damper. Hit a rough piece of paving with one wheel, and your T can go out of control.
I strongly recommend the use of a steering damper. The Model T steering was obsolete when we got out of the gas-buggy era and into the 1920's, with improved streets and roads and the invention of oncoming traffic.
Jim
I've always used one. Didn't realize it helped in normal steering. Now, of course, I have modren steering, from a '37 Ford. I still use the stab. Never tried without it, I guess.
A steering damper is a "fix" for steering that is worn out and / or maladjusted. It masks the problems caused by a lack of maintenance, while making your car harder to steer. I don't think it adds anything, certainly not safety.
I recently fine tuned a gentlemans newly restored 25 T roadster pick-up. I didn't like the way the T drove with the dampner that was installed on it and pulled it off. It drove a lot better after taking it off.
The reason I started this post was to inform members of an overlooked safety feature that could possibly save you and your family from an accident or worse. I’m sure everyone would agree that added brakes have saved lives. The past few years there has been an eye opening occurrence of rolled over T’s. I’m sure no matter what else started the ball rolling it led to a loss of steering control. Now in an ideal world with ideal conditions the T was a perfect car the way it came from the factory, the trouble is the world and traffic has changed since the last T was built. If you live in an area of the country with perfect roads or you don’t put many miles on your T: no problem. I live in the Northeast where winter caused road conditions are an issue. I do put more miles on my T’s than most anyone I know. As I stated in my post, my front end was rebuilt and had no problems to mask. The increase in steering effort is hardly noticeable going down the road and the car feels more stable at speed. I just put a stabilizer on my wife’s T that she uses as a summer daily driver. She has not complained of harder steering. If your car steers a lot harder with one on it, you might want to check your front end for other issues.
The one Lang used to sell a dozen years ago was nearly 2" diameter. I ran that for a long time. Somebody on the 2000 Greatrace crew decided it wasn't working, and put on an even larger one. Shortly after that I found a skinny one from a VW bug, and it's been on ever since.
It's a hydraulic shock absorber. It keeps the steering from turning too fast, yet gives little resistance at low rate of turn. Why do you suppose VW and a zillion other cars come from the factory with them?
I use the dampers on both model T's and both model A's. They make my cars safer, and they drive better. Not alot of cost or trouble for the very high rate of added safety.
Made mine from a VW steering stabilizer and it works great. Gives a good feel to the steering and helps reduce road shock transmission to the steering wheel. It's like having shock obsorbers on a car. You can get by without them (ala Model T) but they are sure nice to have. I think they would have been a popular accessory back in the day had they been available.
There were a lot of accessories sold back in the day that were supposed to stabilize the squirrely steering of the Model T - though hydrualic dampers weren't developed just yet..
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/230574.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/116309.html?1260165378
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/233927.html?1315318765
I installed the steering stabilizer that Frank Fenton made on both my T and my A (now sold by Langs, I believe). They function great on both cars; no harder steering that I can detect and NO MORE SHIMMY. Yes, I suppose I could replace the entire front end of both cars (new kingpins, bushings, ball ends, etc.) and rebuild the A steering box for LOTS of cash but this fix suits me just fine!
The steering gear on a Model T works as well as the finest rack-and-pinion steering setup in a modern car. Like a rack-and-pinion, it gives a very sensitive feel of the road. The gearing of the Ford steering is actually better than a rack-an-pinion, because the force and wear on the rack (or, on the Ford, the internal gear) are distributed evenly among three participants, the "planets." The dimensions of front-wheel alignment, castor, camber, and toe-in, are firmly set on the Ford, and are designed to give stable, self-correcting steering, just like on a modern car.
However, a modern rack-and-pinion steering setup is un-drivable without a hydraulic stabilizer. The steering will feel good and stable for a while, but with the damper gone you will, without any warning, find it hard to stay in the road. Without the damping effect, your car will eventually hop the curb and take out a light pole.
If you've got a car with the old worm-and-sector or "circulating ball" steering, you can drive for years with the damper worn out. With the worm drive, like on a Model A, you can do fine without a damper. The worm does the damping for you.
Ironically, it's the quality of the road surfaces that have made the Model T steering dangerous. Dirt roads are a completely different matter, and when the first Model T rolled out, most roads were dirt. The fine concrete surfaces are what have revealed a treacherous aspect of steering using direct gearing.
Jim
Interesting, James. However, the Porsche 914 R&P has no stabilizer, nor power steering. Its wheelbase is also 100 inches, but that's probably where the similarity ends. It has a much higher steering ratio than the 4:1 or 5:1 of the T. They were my daily drivers for 20 years, and I don't remember any steering, alignment or front suspension troubles, ever.
One of our members steering damper came loose as he made a right turn and the car continued turning right as it had no other option. If you use a damper be sure its installed correctly and keep the bolts tight.
My problem with some of this stuff is it takes away from the feel and quirks of a real Model T. It also gives people a false sense of security. If your going fast enough that the car gets squirrelly, then your going too fast or not paying attention to the road. These kind of things make newer guys think they really need it when they really don't. The car that I drove, felt very sluggish on the steering. I didn't like the response at all and as far as I'm concerned I saw no safety aspect what so ever. With the damper it could cause guys to corner faster and cause excessive loading on the spokes as an example. Parts are only as strong as their weakest link so install modern parts and accessories and find out. Hope it works out ok.
Well Kenny, I agree with you. I know its only my opinion but if you need a bunch of modern parts to "improve" the model T, why not just buy a datsun 210? Drive a T like a T and you shoouldn't need modern "improvements".
YMMV.
Not saying all should feel this way, just that I do.
I have them on two of my three T's currently, front ends are good and dont experience shimmy, but l installed them in the event of a 60psi tire blow out with my wife driving, just stops that initial hard pull to one side... thats the theory l think.
Could one of you guys that have adapted the VW stabilizer, post a picture or two ?
Thanks
schuh
The steering on my touring was a bit too exciting until I installed new bushings and spindle pins. Since then it's been fine. When I had that left front blowout the car wanted to swerve a little, but I had no trouble keeping it on the road. So far, I haven't found any "improvements" necessary.
This crap is not an improvement. It is a crutch for those who don't know how to properly repair their cars. I feel sorry for anyone who uses one of these things. It is entirely unnecessary if the car is in proper shape. If the car is not put together right it is masking a potentially fatal defect.
Either way take it off and fix your T.
Agree with Steve and Royce. I recently went thru the complete front end on my '27, new kingpins and bushings, spring shackles and bushings and tie rod and drag link sockets. The cost was minimal. I checked the toe in, caster and camber and they were all within the specifications called for in the green "bible". It steers like new and I believe it will last another 85 years now.
Gordon
IMO, Gordon, your balloon tires and 5:1 planetary are not a fair comparison to clinchers and 4:1.
".. a potentially fatal defect."
A potentially fatal defect is a steering with no rate limiter and offset spindles that whips the wheels in any direction after breaking the driver's thumbs.
From my experience with the stock Model T steering, it makes me wonder if some of the recent fatal rollovers that have happened would have been prevented if they had a stabilizer on their T. I think from what I read here, I will try one on my T. For less than $100.00 it is worth a try.
Model T's roll over when people lose control of them because they are driving too fast for the design parameters of the car. A Model T will go 50 MPH, completely unmodified. That does not mean it is a good idea.
The Model T has enough power to pull itself through deep mud, up steep hills, with four people on board. It was never intended to drive at highway speeds.
A Model T is going to kill you if you drive too fast. A shock absorber on the steering does not change that fact, nor improve anything. It simply makes the car harder to steer, heavier, and uglier. If you have steering shimmy, it is because something is wrong with your car.
I also agree with Steve and Royce. If you are having steering issues either something is loose or out of alignment. There should be NO play in the steering. The front wheels should start to steer as soon as the wheel is turned. The wishbone ball must fit snugly inside its socket with no play but, it must be able to rotate freely. Even though there may be very little play in certain areas collectively they add up to cause a big problem. The best solution to steering issues is to completely rebuild your front end and make certain the axle is properly aligned. I have never seen a T with steering problems that did not have slop in the steering or something otherwise wrong with the front end. After rebuilding both front ends I have had no steering issues at all. The stabilizer is simply a band-aid fix that only covers up the real source of the problem.
Stephen
i havent driven alot of model ts, but i drive the heck out of mine and regularly drive over 40mph.
its not a modern car that you can drive with one finger, but it stays on the road just fine, and trust me if youve ever been to so cal you understand that dirt roads would be an improvement.
Royce I have to agree with you on one thing it is crazy to dive a T at 50mph. I do believe in keeping my T’s as stock as possible. That being said, what are the driving perimeters of a Model T? They were designed for 09 traffic and road conditions that were mostly dirt and mud. How fast could you drive on them 10, 15, maybe 20mph? I try to keep mine between 30-35 mph, probably past the design perimeters. If you go along with your line of thought of design perimeters, why do you have accessory brakes on your car? If we use your own thought process: if your stock brakes were as they should be and you drove to design perimeters you would not need them. If you read my post thoroughly you would know my front end is rebuilt as all my T’s have been. I’m not trying to mask any problems. Driving a model T in today’s world is not exactly the safest thing to do. If I hear of something that may make driving them a little safer for me, my wife and kids, I’ll try it. I tried the stabilizer after a recommendation of some friends that drive their T’s a lot. They have also toured in European rallies. I respect their opinion so I tried it myself. I put forth my opinion to help other T owners, not to be argumentative. If it keeps us from critiquing the underside of one members T on this forum it’s worth it.
People tend to generalize based on their own situation. Not all cars are alike, and not all stabilizers are equal, so not liking one you drove with should not condemn them all.
I have driven with three different ones on the Speedster. The one from Lang wore out in a short time, probably less than 25,000 miles. The guys who put on its replacement in Grand Island while I was doing something else, fitted a much larger one, which was overkill. I later found a complete VW bug kit, and it has been good.
Royce is right, there is not one accessorie, that was made for the Model T front end like that didn't mask a wear problem, mask it, and you sill had the problem, and it never gets better.
Steering dampers were made so the wheel was less likely to jump out of your hand, in 1920 road ruts, and all the drag to steer took all the fun out of driving on a good road.
Stabilizers mask many wore parts, for the price of a Stabilizer, the the front end could be fixed, and a hole lot less dangerous to drive.
Herm.
Could one of you guys that have adapted the VW stabilizer please post a picture or two ?
Dale, mine was made commercially, and I bought it used.
Think of a steering stabilizer as a rate limiter, not a normal friction device. That would be the difference between hydraulic shocks and friction shocks.
I've been driving my flivver for 33 years and I have never been happy with the steering - 1 1/4 turns lock to lock with a 13" wheel does not make sense.
My wife & I did an experiment some years ago with our Morris Minor & the T. I jacked up both cars. Linda held the steering wheel of the Minor (3 1/4 turns lock to lock) while I pushed on the roadwheel - with one finger she could stop me from turning the wheel. We swapped roles. I held the T steering wheel in a double handed 'death-grip' and Linda could wrench it from my grasp with a onehanded gentle shove on the roadwheel.
Translate this to the road. You touch a kerb or hit a pothole wrong and the T wheel will be torn from your hand: it happens and we have seen the accident reports.
I try to drive at 1909 speeds (if the traffic will let me) and everything on the front end is to factory spec, but I still worry. I have fitted a Philips Irreversible Steering clutch http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/116309.html
and shortened my steering arm to give 1 3/4 turns lock to lock, but I'd still like a steering box that would give me 3 turns lock-to-lock
I was thinking along the same line as Jem posted above.
Try this:
On level ground, put a chock in front of one front wheel of your T. Put the car in neutral, then push the car from behind, in the middle. The steering wheel will turn to full lock.
Try that again with your Model A, or other modren. The wheel will stay almost straight ahead.
That's because the T has vertical kingpins, and the wheels are offset from the kingpin axis. Canting the kingpins to put their extended axis under the center of the tire patch became necessary with front brakes.
Therefore, a steering rate limiter is needed even more by the T than by modern cars.
This is not even considering gear ratios and worm gear boxes that limit feedback.
When my T woke up from the long sleep about a year ago, the steering was pretty sloppy. I took about two months and went through EVERYTHING in the front end and replaced about every bushing/ spindle bolts, etc., etc. There is NO slop in my steering whatsoever and the car drives very tight and handles extremely well.
All that being said, I do drive the car on (well graded) dirt roads. Several times while the front tire was near a minor rut it steered itself into the rut...no problem, but....if it was a deep rut or pot hole I have the feeling the T could definitely yank on the steering wheel...perhaps to the point of losing steering control for a short time.
Enough to put me in a ditch under just the wrong conditions? ..............Maybe. If I drove with a death grip on the wheel ALL the time, probably never be a problem.
Cheers
schuh
Rick's, I don't think most people drive with a wheel chock in front of one wheel.
Bud, that is from Caster and most T's have too much of it. The strut won't help the pull except maybe slow it down, but the pull will still be there. The strut will also slow the correction when really needed.
My first double wishbone - late welded to early - has 13 degrees caster. It was really stable going forward, but Mr Toad's wild ride in reverse. After a year, I replaced it with one with standard caster.
rdr
I owned several Volkswagen beetles back when I was too broke to afford a real car. One of them had a steering stabilizer. I took it off and the front end shook violently when cruising above 35 MPH.
I then replaced the completely shot tie rod ends and replaced the scored, worn out wheel bearings and races which had never been greased since new. Spent the rest of that week's pay check on a front end alignment.
Since Ebay was not going to be invented for another 25 years I threw the steering stabilizer in the trash barrel.
Same as a Model T, a Volkswagen steering stabilizer is for people who don't know any better.
Why did you take the stabilizer off, Royce? Did you expect better performance?
Yeah, that's why they put steering stabilizers on 30 million cars, so a few clowns could continue to drive them with worn out, unsafe parts.
rdr
I took it off because it was masking the fact that the front end was shot. Once the front end was fixed the stabilizer simply made it harder to steer.
Same as Model T performance with steering stabilizer, it doesn't improve anything.
Gentlemen,
I have a stabilizer on my T. It's purpose is not to mask a worn-out front end, or for driving the car faster. Without it, the steering performs exactly as designed. It has no play in the steering wheel, nor does it shimmy or wobble. The steering stabilizer is on my car for one reason: It prevents a side-to-side, resonant oscillation of the front end under rare conditions, by limiting the rate of change. By "resonant," I mean a darting action that increases in swing with each oscillation. Whether this tendency exists in the car or the driver is not relevant. The stabilizer prevents it.
Let me explain: In 1967 I was 16 years old and I owned a like-new 1926 touring car. Channel green. I drove it daily, in Atlanta traffic, and I was skilled. It was my primary transportation.
On a Sunday afternoon I was travelling down North Druid Hills Road, east, doing about 30 mph (no speedo) in the outer lane. The right front wheel hit an irregularity in the pavement, and the car jerked suddenly to the right. I was headed into the curb. On pure instinct, I jerked to the left. I was heading into oncoming traffic, so, again on instinct, I jerked right. At that forward speed, on that pavement, I had gotten into a situation that was impossible to correct.
Next thing I knew, I was in mid air, looking at rapid closure on a manhole cover.
I woke up briefly. The car was on top of me. the only muscle I could move was my tongue, and I found that my jaw was in the wrong place. I felt a mixture of boiling water and gasoline peeling the skin off my legs. I lost consciousness.
I awoke a couple of days later in an ICU. The right side of my face was torn off, as was my right ear. My right shoulder was ground off. My left optic nerve was heavily damaged. My jaw was broken in two places, and I had a gash over my right eye. I had an indentation in my skull on the left side, and the cranium was split in back. Both temples were punctured. I was hospitalized for half a year with severe brain damage.
But, I was able to skip my junior year of high school. I went on to earn a B.S. in physics, an M.S., and a Ph.D. in nuclear engineering. My parents had an odd mindset, thinking that I should get back up on the horse that threw me. I bought a 27 tudor as a senior in high school, thinking that a sedan was safer. I never again wanted to be thrown out of a car.
40 years later, I was driving down Mt. Paran Parkway at 30 mph (speedo, this time.) The right wheel hit an irregularity in the pavement. It jerked right, and I jerked left. Instantly, I knew that maneuver! I brought the car under control, with some effort.
I immediately bought a steering stabilizer. It makes the wheel hard to turn when parking. I would not drive the car without it.
Jim
My wife and I took the 14 out today for a 60 mile test run to further check different road conditions with the stabilizer installed. In normal driving, any increased steering effort is hardly noticeable. Well worth the increased stable feel of the car.
A huge plus is backing the car up. In the picture if you notice a small cut off past the rear of the car. I backed the car up to that spot part of way with no hands on the steering wheel, the car stayed straight with no flip flopping of the wheels at all. Look closely at the picture, can you spot the stabilizer?
When you own and drive a 80-100 year old car like a Model T, and its it good mechanical shape, can you really expect it to drive and handle like a car thats 0-15 years old?
A Model T is what it is. Like the old saying goes, "a piece of tin and a piece of board. Put it together and you've got a FORD.
Its still true today whether we like it or not!
It took me a while to find these and scan and resize them from a Reid Welch post in 2001.
Sorry about the size differences. I tried to get them all close to 200 KB.
I didn't print all the replies.
Thank you, James. You're a man I'd be proud to know personally. I can appreciate and only wonder at what you've been through, without walking a mile in your mocassins. Have you ever guessed how many died in the T era, just from such a bump, hole, rut or rock?
Guys, don't try to convince anyone not to add such an important safety device, jut because you're too cheap or too stubborn. Others place a higher value on their lives than you obviously do. You can save even more money by keeping your T in the garage, where it will do no harm.
rdr
Thank you Dale, for that history refresher/lesson. I have no idea what pic I posted.
Thank you, Dan, for starting this important thread, and for stressing the safety value of a steering damper.
Reid was essentially clueless but had a certain way with words so some found his words to be interesting. I am not among that group.
Yeh, if you can't counter the message, attack the messenger.
There are explanations for everything. Ignorance of a problem or cause can try to be explained as "mysterious" but there are always reasons for shimmy and other front end issues.
I went for a drive the other day thinking of this thread, I hit every bump, irregularity and pot hole that I approached. There is no darting or shimmy on a correctly set up from axle. I took my hand off the wheel just to give the car a chance to dart, but it never veered from it's current direction.
I had a gentlemans 24 touring car in the shop this weekend that was complaining of a really bad shimmy. I checked the balance on his front tires and had to put 4 oz. on one side and two on the other. Took the car for a ride and it was smooth as silk.
There are lots of variables that can cause shimmy.
Balance - will cause shimmy at various speeds and can be fine at other speeds.
Component Looseness - can affect shimmy at various speeds but seems to show up more at low speeds. Play in the pitman arm, king pins/bushings, tie rod ends/bushing and the ball socket ends of the drag link are all areas the will cause shimmy.
Bent parts - If the tie rod or drag link is bowed even slightly, those can/will cause severe steering osolations. If the tie rod is bowed, and a bump is hit, the tie rod will compress slightly and then release and will start an osolation of the wheels going back and forth in a toe out toe in condition.
A bowed drag link will compress when an irregularity is hit in the road surface then flex back and start the condition of the wheels whipping back an forth (left and right) which to me is one of the most dangerous conditions.
That last condition is alignment - Too much toe in/out can cause darting and excessive tire wear. A lot of people think that toe can cause pulling in the steering at all times, but that is not true. Both wheels will be working against each other if the friction is the same for each tire. If one of the tires gets less friction than the other (bump, sand, water, etc...), then the car will dart in the direction of the wheel with the most friction. This in combination with some of the other items I previously mentioned will set up for some really interesting steering conditions.
Too much Caster can cause shimmy (think about the grocery cart that has the wheel going back and forth like crazy)and really hard steering when turning. Too little caster will cause the steering to wander and not want to return to center after a turn and in severe cases can make the car uncontrollable.
Camber differences will cause pulling.
There were 15 million T's made with out stabilizers and I know the roads and speeds were different then, but I don't think there is an epidemic where everyone needs to rush out and buy a stabilizer. Save that for when you really do get to the "mysterious" part.
Shimmy aside, Kenny, a stabilizer does just that. The faster the steering tries to turn, the more the resistance from the hydraulic stabilizer.
Due to vertical kingpins on the T, it benefits from a stabilizer more than any modern car.
Arguing against other people installing a stabilizer because it cures shimmy is missing the point, and arguing against safety.
Whatever you wish to do with your T is your business. I have 4 T's, and have driven thousands of miles on all kinds of roads. All of my steering components are tight, as they are supposed to be, with the proper clearance. I've never had a problem steering forward, backward, or anything else.
Ricks, Fix the front axle components correctly and they won't have shimmy is the real point.
Shimmy is not the real point: wheel track offset from kingpin axis and 4:1 or 5:1 gearing are the culprits. You can't change them without major modification.
I believe the "culprit" is a lack of maintenance and hanging junk from your car to fix the lack of proper maintenance.
Here's my 2 cents on this (and that's probably all that it's worth).
I have driven many Ts, and I have always felt that if the all the steering components are rebuilt properly and are within factory specs, then the steering is fine. Mine still has the 4:1 ratio, and I have never had a problem with it. All the bushings are nice and tight, the steering bracket has a new bushing, and there is effectively zero play in the drag link. It goes down the road as straight as an arrow, and bump steering is just not a problem. Of course trying to turn the wheels while the car isn't moving can be a feat of strength!
On the other hand, the steering components on a few Ts I've driven are quite worn and out of adjustment, and I feel that they are dangerous to drive. One was so bad that if you weren't careful, it would pull a wheel right off of the ground!
I side with Larry. If it is kept maintained properly, you will be fine. But, then again, I use my stock brakes too with no issues
WHAT, STOCK BRAKES!!! YOU CANT DO THAT!!! lol
I’m sorry I have caused such a controversy and have upset some people. That was not my intent. The pros and cons of needing this and not needing this, I guess are debatable. The only thing I can say is I’ve been driving T’s since 1975. I have driven them thousands and thousands of miles, gone through more Universal tires than I care to count, and the miles I’ve driven stretch over a number of Model T’s. All these years and all these miles, I only ran into three instances where I almost flipped the car. All the rest of the time the car steered perfect. It only takes that one odd situation. I would not put the stabilizer on a couple of original cars that I have which I don’t drive much, because my risk of a problem with them is low. On the other hand, the T’s that I put many miles on; I don’t think I want to take the chance and go through what happened to James A. Mahaffey.
I feel a stabilizer might prevent this from happening, whether your front end is absolutely, positively perfect or not, and few are. I have heard some of the experts that know so much, have been on National tours and decided the driving is to rough and loaded their T back in their trailer. So much for the faith in their T.
For those of you that have crystal balls and can see into the future, and know your perfect front end will never run into a situation to cause you a problem. I wish you luck, and safe touring!
I have owned a T now for quite a few years and used to enjoy reading this forum, but lately, it seems just about every topic turns into a pissin' match. We all know that people are stubborn and right or wrong, people will fight to the death in what they think is right. We can each do what we want with OUR cars and even if a person thinks it is wrong, we have to respect their decision. We can voice our opinions, but this childish bickering is really getting old. Respect is only given if it is received. That being said, everyone drives their T differently. In my case, I drive my T as a T was driven 75 years ago, with the exception of better roads. I like to travel the back roads and putz along at 25mph and enjoy the trip. Now I do realize I am lucky enough to have these rural back roads to travel on. That is why I bought a T. Would I consider driving a T on 4 lanes at 70-----NO WAY! I view cars as a tool. You have to use the right "tool" for the job. When I like to putz around, I jump in the T, when I want to go cruising down the road at 65 and show off, I drive my 83 mustang convertible. That is what I bought it for. If I am going across the state, I jump in my crew cab f150.
I understand the challenge of building a better "mouse trap", but when it is all said and done, you still have a mouse trap. Now I know some of you are thinking, yes, but is hasn't happened to you and when it does, boy we will be right! Well I did have the "death shimmy" happen to me about a month after driving my T. I bought the car and like most was guilty of not checking it over really well and just wanted to drive it. Well I was rolling along and the right front tire went into a small dip and it started to shimmy like mad until I stopped. So I gathered up my thoughts and rolled it into the shop and checked the toe and it was over two inches toed in. I replaced a the loose bushings and reset the toe and it has been fine since, through the same dip, over the past 10 years.
Basically you guys are scaring off new model T drivers. I think a better approach would be to come up with guidelines of what to expect out of a model t and what should be considered safe. For example, if you are going to use a T like I do, a well maintained stock T will do the trick. If you are going to drive in more traffic, then maybe some better brakes and turn signals. Going to tour, well, maybe some better stuff in the engine, some steering improvements, etc etc. I really don't like this grouping us all together and "if you don't do this you will die and we will laugh at your funeral" scare tactic that some of you use to try to prove yourselves right or wrong. It all comes down to the use and expectation of what you want to get out of YOUR T.
My 26 had a bad shimmy usually at low speeds,now this was with a new front axle,perches, spring, tie rod ends, spindles and bushings,new tie rod ball, steering gears, shaft ,pitman arm and a new bushing in the steering bracket, so we rebushed and reamed the bushings again, retightened everything, bought the big wrench to twist the axle, new wheel bearings and races properly adjusted and it still would shimmy, did the spindle bushings three times with no change in results, so i finally put the stabilizer on at the suggestion of Milt Webb and have not had a problem since. With that said i rebuilt the front end on my 24 and have not had a problem with shimmy but it is wild when backing up. The 21' wheels seem to be more apt to shimmy than the 30", i read that somewhere.
Rick
I think it's been several years ago, but I recall a similar discussion about front end shimmy, and I distinctly recall a statement by a very knowledgeable and respected and frequent "T" poster. He said, in so many words, that in some cases, a brand new, right out of the factory Model "T" would, under the right set of circumstances, have a slow speed front end shimmy, and that as far as he knew, nobody knew why. He felt that it was just the nature of the design and just another of the "quirks" of the Model T. In other words, sometimes a Model T will "shimmy" when it decides to do so, whether we like it or not. I really believe that this is true, and for that reason, I believe a "T" should be driven like most were, back in the day; i.e. between 25 - 35 mph, and always be ready for anything!
Harold,
I wonder just exactly how many new, right out of the T factory cars that imaginary person has driven? My guess would be none. Utter nonsense to imagine a Model T would have a shot, out of adjustment front end when new.
If you had a T just as it came from the factory would you know how to keep it in good condition for a year? Or would you start hanging gadgets on it the first day, because some internet genius says your car is unsafe or unreliable without it?
I do not have a stabilizer on either car and have experienced no steering issues at all. I have stuck bumps and holes at a wide variety of speeds either directly or barely clipping it from the side, while turning and going straight, on pavement and on dirt, with and without hasslers and never had the wheel try to jerk out of my hands or the car try to leave the road. As long as all the bushings and ball joints are tight with no play and the axle is aligned correctly you will have no problems. How many accessories available in model T times were a genuine improvement compared to those devices that are designed to rig a T rather than repair it correctly?
Stephen
I should have said "I have struck bumps" not I have "Stuck bumps."
Stephen
Royce - I guess I'm not very good at explaining myself. I did not mean that there were new Model T's with anything in the front end (as you said),..."shot, or out of adjustment".
What I meant was that Model T's were designed by Henry Ford and his engineers to be as inexpensive and simple as they could make them and still function properly.
The design was very simple and in some cases, you might even say "crude". Let's face it; the front suspension was not much more sophisticated than the wagons and carriages prior to the "horseless carriage" days; merely a transverse buggy spring with no shock absorbers! And I still think that under some conditions, it will shimmy, just like when the electric starter came out in 1919 and once in awhile, the starter bendix will stick, even if everything is put together in accordance with factory standards.
Now then, having said that, certainly, in the event of a shimmy situation, everything should be checked, but I still think that it's just possible that you won't find anything wrong! I guess to say it another way, I certainly would NOT say that it's impossible for a Model T, assembled properly with all components meeting factory specs' to ever shimmy.
One other way to say it, and then I am DONE!
I love my Model T's, but I'd NEVER say they're perfect!
Ralph,
I agree that the king pins are vertical, but the spindles have camber built into them. Does that not put the contact point back underneath the kingpin centerline?
Hal, the kinpin axis hits the ground at the inner edge of the tire track, about 1 1/2" inboard of the centerline of the wheels.
Here's the kind of accident that might have been prevented with a hydraulic steering damper:
David Cockey, 2009 Jun 3
"As you may have heard our 1916 touring car overturned in a traffic circle Sunday afternoon. It's a fairly large diameter circle and we almost stopped before entering to let another car go past. I've been through it many, many times in the T, our Model A and other cars and trucks. My only memory of the incident are of the steering wheel being jerked out of my hands and car feeling like it was rolling over. A quick inspection of the car shows everything in the front suspension and steering in place though a number of parts are bent. The Noah Stutzman wheels are intact with the tires still on the rims and inflated. The car was rolled into our garage. I really don't know what happened, and can't offer any speculation."
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/94146.html?1244132815
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A reinforced wishbone may have made a difference, too.
Where are you, David? You haven't posted since Jan.
Obviously every Model T owner should run right to his phone and order a steering stabilizer, an E Timer, a set of disc brakes, a Model A crank and a '28 Chevrolet cylinder head, and then start fabricating a second wishbone so they can be just like you Ralph.
Come on, give it a rest pal.
Royce,
I don't think Ralph wants us to all be like him and he does't need to give it a rest any more than you do.
Still there are many of us who can't get away with driving 25 or less where we live. Is Ralph pushing limits many find unacceptable - sure.
Where I live (and true for many others), if I want to drive my cars, I must be able to do 35 with confidence and stability or I need to leave it in the garage or on a trailer. Because of that, like many others, I have added some accessory items. Both of my "stock" T's have auxiliary brakes. Both are later vintage so have the under axle wishbone but I would certainly add one if they didn't. Both have stock T steering and while I've never felt a need for a stabilizer on my touring car, my '26 coupe steering seems more "twitchy" and I've been tempted to try one on it. Both stock T's have fresh bushings and tight steering.
I see absolutely no problem with suggesting a device that can enhance the stability of the car.
My speedster is a totally different critter with a more modern steering box, modified suspension, and 4 wheel brakes but then I drive it differently than a standard T. You and probably many others wouldn't care for it or how I drive it but then I didn't build it for you or them.
I know every nut and bolt on all three of my cars and take personal responsibility for them and what what happens when I drive them.
Walt
I bought my first model t out of a barn in 1984. It was a true barn find, right out of the era. The font end would shimmy occasionally, so I rebuilt the entire front end.This cured pretty much every thing....Except every now and then, primarily coming out of a corner and hitting a bump while correcting your steering, there could be a dart and the beginning of problems. I have an original hydraulic stabilizer that I think was for the Model A, because it has the model A type zirk fitting, that I am going to try.I am curious if this (close to) period cure will help.
I'm reminded of one of the many maxims in racing/performance which says you can study everything others do, ask many, but in the end, on your car, "you have to do your own thinking".
Some things you just know how you feel about. Other ideas you may need to try for yourself. Some sound good till you try them.
Happy T-ing all.
I am going on a long club tour tomorrow in the sunny outdoors here in the Pacific Northwest with a good old friend of mine. We plan to have a great time and I can promise you I will not spend one more second worrying about this topic.
Why do these threads go so long? If a person likes a stabilizer then they can use one. The way i see it is if the spring shackles are in perfect shape but not frictional tight allowing the axle to move sideways ever so slightly as the spring limited this would move the axle in relation to steering shaft & pitman arm which would cause the car to turn ever so slightly away from the bump which is normal and expected. After doing so the weight of the car would try to force the shackles to their lowest position and it would all straighten out again which is ideal. Now if the weight of the car pushed the self centering effect of the shackles a little past center causing the wheels to turn a little the other way, This might cause the weight of the car to shift again and it would keeping trying to center itself which would be a tiny shimmy that could continue if the road surface let it, Or if the tire rode in a rut like a record player needle. This might be the factory shimmy the ancient texts told of. If a part such as a spindle bush was worn this might increase the shimmy effect to the point of it being a problem which is something some people might want to correct. Even without a shimmy some people might like the feel of the stabilizer but i guess it would be personal preference.