I've got a question. Does anybody know how much pressure it takes to keep to keep the water (coolant) in a radiator from boiling at 212 degrees at sea level? Does anybody have a graph on something like that?
No, it doesn't have anything to do with my T, that's all stock. It has to do with that one of a kind 'Hot Rod' Rambler of mine with the Chevy 350 in it.
I want to put a radiator cap on it that has pressure release lever on it and just like with everything else on this car, the radiator isn't an 'off the shelf' item either. It's developing some minor seepage where the core meets the tanks on both sides of at the top. Needless to say, the radiator is going to have to go into the shop but in the mean time (while I save up my change for another expensive project $$$), I'm going to slap a can of Bars Leaks in it and I only want to pressurize it enough to run at somewhere around 220 like 'modern' cars do. If this thing wasn't so darn much fun to drive, it could go back to being a 'trailer queen' like it was designed to be in the first place.
My one experience with stop leak ended in disaster. It was on my 68 GTO convertible. Wish I was more help though...grin..
Radiator Ralph (retired) got lots of business via Stop Leak. He recommended Aluma-Seal, which is powdered aluminum. Works for me.
Anti-freeze raises the boiling point a few degrees without pressurization. You should be able to get by without a pressure cap.
Be sure your timing is not retarded.
rdr
I'm on my phone or I would post a link. Google "boiling point of water at various pressures". The first link has a graph.
I've also had great luck with aluma seal.
1 psi = 2 degree rise of boiling point at sea level. So at 1 psi, your boiling point is now 214. This is rule of thumb.
If the car isn't overheating, you can put on a radiator cap to the first detent this will keep the coolant inside, yet not pressurize the system. If you need the pressure for temps of 220, nevermind.
Dennis, I too have had success with Aluma seal, But having said that, It's residue must be flushed out of the engine block and heater coil when a repaired/new radiator is installed. We see quite a few cars temporarily repaired in this manner at our shop these days and the flushing usually adds $50 to $100 bucks to the final repair bill.
Just from past experience, we always used a 12-14 lb cap when we ran our muscle cars. I personally had (3) 69 Mach 1's, 69 GTO, 69 Z28, 68 Corronet RT, 70 Challenger, 70 Charger RT, 71 Cuda, 70 AMX (I still have that one). That's all that I can remember off the top of my head. But its been a long time ago too. Oh, and a 68 Lincoln Continental (was my dads car, now mine and I still have it too.) Besides owning these, I used to be a Body shop repair & re-painting and mechanic.
That's my two cents worth.
Good luck!
I said Bars Leaks because that's the first thing I thought of. Alum Seal was more what I had in mind.
I used to work for NAPA and AutoZone so I've been doing my homework in their sites. I'll make sure it gets flushed out good. It doesn't have a heater core (or defrosters or functioning windshield wipers, or even an emergency brake). Like I said, I 'think' this thing started life as a car show 'trailer queen'. This thing has a Camaro front sub-frame under it (or so I'm told) and I'm guessing that's a customized, maybe 70's era, Camaro radiator which calls for a 16 LB cap which is what's on it. I might go down a couple LBS. This car is very light, that engine doesn't doesn't have anything better to do than to put the back tires up in flames, which it will do with almost no effort at all. It's got a Dakota Digital instrument panel so I get numbered temp. readings. In stop and go heavy traffic, it's gets up to 220 once in a while. The temperature wanders all over the place, I doubt it's even got a thermostat in it.
I appreciate the replies so far. I completely understand this is a Model T site but many of you have other classics and those dreaded 'Hot Rods', so it never hurts to 'pick brains', right? At least with a Model T there were 15 million of them. This thing is one of one.
You don't get an idea how 'modified' this thing is until you look at a stock 60 Rambler American.
There's virtually nothing 'stock' about it and I mean nothing. Even the inside window cranks are custom. That said, I take you back to your regularly scheduled Model T site.
If water boils at 212 degrees F it is under 1 atmosphere of pressure. Or, if you use metric, like in a barometer, it is 760 mm of Mercury or almost 30 inches of Mercury. Or, in otherwords, Standard Atmospheric Pressure...... an average day.
Hal, thanks I found that chart. Bill, I got the 212 at seal level (1 atmosphere of pressure) part down. Now what I have to go looking for is how many PSI '1 atmosphere of pressure' is? There are other 'issues' going on here. Kind of like Model T and water pumps. This car has 2 electric cooling fans on it where one ought to be sufficient. I'd almost bet the 2 fans block more air than they move under certain situations. I'm sure I'll get it all figured out. It's only a matter of time (and money).
Dennis, it gets a little whacky...
1 atmosphere is 14.695 PSIA. We 'read' in PSIG. Yeah the engineers went a decided you need a super-decoder ring....
So to get from PSIA to PSIG (the 'g' stands for gauge) just subtract 14.695.
Yeah, why did they even bother, eh?
Dennis another thing to consider if you are concerned about the temp is the fan. Is it electric and thermostatically controlled? You can buy a fan switch that is temp adjustable to kick the fans on at a lower temp ,this has a BIG affect in bringing the temp down.
George, I had it in my head that it was something like 14 lbs. So, technically putting a 14 lb cap on a radiator raises the boiling point to 2 atmospheres.
George H, like I said nothing about this car is 'stock'. It has a Ron Francis wiring in it. The electric fans are not on when you start it cold and they're always on when you shut it off hot, so there's a thermostatic switch in it somewhere? I'm just going to have to start it up sitting in the car port and observe when the fans come on and take a look at the temp gauge to figure out when. Then trace the wires back to see where they come from in that maze behind the dash.
Dennis,what I was trying to say was Hayden the maker of electric fans,trans coolers etc.does or used make a adjustable thermostatic fan control.You can adjust so the fans come on at anywhere in between 160 and 210 degrees.If your car doesn't have one it could help.If you want one,I have a brand new (but made in 1998)I would be happy to give you. If you want it just send me a pm with you address and I'll send it to you.
Dennis, I'm not sure if a sealant is going to do any good. Aside from some weeping I'd be more concerned with the temp fluctuations as you seem to be. The "mood swings" seem to be the fans going on and off there fore they are controlled by a sensor. Without a thermostat and possibly a hyper active fan sensor you're going high on temp then low after the fans kick in. A 'stat might regulate the temp better. Since it's all non stock the sensor might be adjustable too. Once you find it that is. They will run after the engines off to get rid of the excess heat because the coolant's not circulating any more. They are, generally, close to the therm. housing. You know the fan manufacturer. The set up was probably a kit. Why not contact them?
Each pound of pressure on your radiator cap raises the boiling point three degrees. A 7 pound cap will raise your boiling point to 233 degrees. A ten pound cap will raise the boiling point 30 degrees so add 30 and 212 and you get 242. I think that is the answer you were looking for. Water wetter helps sometimes.
But and it is a big one. A pressure radiator cap will not help a radiator that is connected to ambient pressure.
The radiator core cleaners do not like to work on radiators that have been loaded with fixer uppers.
Charlie, the fans are mounted between the grille and the radiator. The small block Chevy takes up every inch of the engine compartment. The Rambler (unibody) engine compartment was cut completely out and hand fabricated to make room for the engine and the 'block hugger' headers. I don't know what make or model the fans are yet. I was driving it around yesterday just observing the temp. under different conditions. The only time it reaches 212 is once you start it up after being briefly parked. I bought a 13lb cap, a 160 stat, a can of Alumaseal and a gallon of antifreeze. After breakfast this morning, I'm going to dig into it.
George, there is no visible fan control in the engine compartment. In fact the only thing in the engine compartment other than the engine, is the starter solenoid (see first picture). I'd be glad to have that fan control, I'll PM you. I know now that the fans are coming on below 212, I just don't know when yet.
Dennis I don't mean to be arguementative but there has got to be some kind of sensor operating those fans. Especially it they don't run constantly as in whenever the ign. switch is on. You said it yourself: they run for a while after you shut the car off. That's normal and it's being controlled by some temperature activated device. Trace the wiring starting at the fans. It may lead to a relay. The relay is used to turn the fans on. It is a heavy duty switch to take the elect. load of the fans. The relay is controlled by a sensor. A light duty switch that operates the relay.
No, that's just it Charlie. When I said they were running when I come home and shut it off, I meant they shut off when I turn off the engine. I would prefer they weren't hooked up through to the ignition key and did stay running when I shut the car off hot. You're right though, there is a temperature control somewhere and I am going to have to trace the fan wiring down to find out where. I'll be looking into all of that here shortly today. The Mrs. has a hair appointment and grocery shopping to do so I have an afternoon all to myself. Might even get the time to tighten the exhaust manifold pipe nut up on 'Lizzie' again too.
The temp switch is either in a head or the intake manifold. It's most likely in the head between #1 and #3, or #6 and #8 plugs if it's not clearly visible on the intake.
It should have a wire going to the keyed terminal on the fuse block, and another going to a relay on or near the fans. The 12V to the fans should go directly from the battery to the relay so you're not running all that power (fused to 40 amps most likely) through your whole wire harness.
If you want it to run the fan even after your ignition is turned off, you should be able to move the wire from a keyed terminal to an always-hot terminal, but if the switch fails they could run your battery dead. Another option is to splice the wire so it's keyed, and on a manual switch to the hot terminal. This way, you can manually control it to be on when the car is off, but can't be forgotten and left off when the car is running.
Also, the switch could be in a radiator-probe as well... almost forgot about that type. Check for wires going to the radiator.
Wasn't thinking when I typed that first response... can't splice the wiring with the switch, or you'd backfeed 12V to the keyed terminal. It would need to be on a separate relay.
If the core is leaking at the tanks there is not much stop leak will do with a 10 lb. cap unless it leaks just places that are not soldered well.
If the core tubes are rusted where they are soldered to the tank plate and eaten through by the solder flux from sitting empty too long it will be new radiator time.
If you insist on it running 220 degrees why install a 160 thermostat? Why not 220?
If you run a 13 lb. cap. a 160 T-stat and drive down the highway at 30 MPH it should not get over 165.
If it does you've got other problems.
Best you get a 4lb. cap, a 180 T stat and see exactly at what temp. the fans come on.
They better come on at around 200F.
Derek, this thing has a Dakota Digital dash board and Ron Francis custom car wiring. It has a fuse panel but not in the classic sense. The battery is in the trunk with the 400 watt 'Boom Box' for the Alpine sound system. I'll figure out how the fans are wired, I just didn't get to it today.
Aaron, I'm not sure where the leak is. All I know right now is I have a white, oxidized stain going down the core on both sides right at the tanks.
The fan comes on at 190 and it did have a (180) thermostat in it. Now that it's all back together it operates at about 198 to 207 in 30 to 45 mph city traffic and it starts to climb around 80 mph and it's up to about 230 around 100. I'm just not that interested in finding out how much farther the temperature climbs above 100 mph, though it's got plenty of gas pedal left. Once I get back down to a 'legal' 70, the temp settles down around 215, 220. I can live with all that. I was fooling around with the distributor timing and I might have to advance it a couple degrees. I retarded the timing because it was starting hot like a car that has too far advanced timing. I don't know what year the engine is or what's been done to it internally, so I'm playing all of this by ear. I'm going to research the block number and try to find out if it's really a 350, like I was told. For all I know right now, it could be a 283, a 305, a 327, or a 350? I think the car was built in the 80's.
Are you sure your temp gauge is accurate? Them temps seem awful high.
Ken, I'm not sure about anything on this car but you're right, I probably ought to stick a meat thermometer in that radiator one of these days and check the accuracy of the temp on that digital instrument panel. I already have my suspicions about the speedometer being a little high. The whole car is a 'hoge poge' of unrelated parts.
K&W Block seal, Aluma Seal, and Bars Leak now sells the good stuff.. DO NOT USE THE PELLETS they will ruin your entire system. The others require to flush and run straight water until it is sealed then drain and let dry for a day. I have also run the engine a few times to keep it warn to aid in the drying process.
V-8 Vegas and Monza's had overheating issues due to not enough air passing thru the radiator.because the engine is so tight in there... Your car might have the same trouble..Are you inner fenderwells cut out ??
Oh what I would have given for electric fans on my V-8 Vega back in the day.
Jerry, the fender wells are cut out about even with the top of the headers with the front suspension exposed so there's ample room for air to get out. The front of the radiator is covered by 2 fans and a trans cooler, I'm more concerned with the ability for air to get to the radiator. For the moment, I'm content with the way the cooling system is working. I used the powdered AlumaSeal and took the car out and put it through it's paces in every possible traffic situation for about a half hour. I'm going through this car system by system (brakes, suspension, steering, cooling, etc.), fixing or modifying things I don't like and putting check marks in boxes. Since there is no handbook for a one of a kind car and it's not my first one, I'm fully aware that I will have to go through every system more than once as I make changes to other systems. A long time ago (80's) I had a tube frame, fiberglass bodied T roadster with a 392 'Hemi' and a 2 speed Powerglide in it. It was absolutely lethal and it never made it to the state of being road safe to drive. This thing isn't quite that bad and I'm no longer quite that young and immortal, so I'll just take my time with this car and get it to a state where I'm willing to bet my life (and the lives of others) on it.
Doug - anyone with a V8 Vega needs more than an electric fan - I was thinking more along the lines of a new brain!
How about 427 CuIn ?
That 'Rat Motor' Vega about as much Vega as my Rambler is Rambler.
That looks scary, mine was a 327 with dual quads. Fun times back in the day. I sold it when I started a family as the "responsible" thing to do. My 22 year old daughter always reminds me how much she wishes I hadn't been so responsible.