Is it my imagination OR...................

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Is it my imagination OR...................
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen E. Kelleher on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 12:53 am:

Are we facing in 2012 a drop in prices in Model Ts. Is this because the older enthusiasts are dying off and creating a glut of cars on the market. A similar thing happened with old tin toys in the 1980s that has continued to the present. Please do not shoot the messenger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 02:14 am:

The rich don't buy Model Ts, for the most part.

The Middle class is shrinking, especially the private sector jobs in the Middle Class. I'd like to see the percentage of private Middle Class jobs today vs. 30 years ago. Govt jobs are taking a hit the last couple of years, but nothing like the private sector.

They say that without job outsourcing, the average wage today would be like $80-90K.

We need 100% inspection of imports - paid by the importers.

That would employ many thousands of people of many disciplines.

That would make imports more expensive, and domestic production more competitive.

Oh, and that would make our foods, drugs, and all imports safer.

We inspect about 1% now.

Sorry for the economics stuff, but you can't look at the value of old cars without being aware of the economic state of buyers. Nothing else has changed that much.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 05:53 am:

Stephen,

where are these cheap Model T's that you speak of? We have a member who has been looking for a deal on a 1922 or earlier, ready to tour touring.

If anything brass Model T's (real ones, not made up of parts speedsters) have gone up sharply, while black Model T's are better than a CD at your bank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 09:43 am:

I collect antique radios and equipment. The prices are dropping fast there also. Money is hard to get, and people that want the money are parting with items and turning them into cash and gold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 09:45 am:

Ricks, are you saying that the private sector is not alright???? Are you defying the anointed one?? The man who owns the military and the white house and air force one?? oh, My my my


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 09:52 am:

Of topic but-

Ricks,

I agree with most of what you said regarding the private sector. I do have a different opinion however than the popular thought these days that the middle class is shrinking.

I think the definition of the middle class changed over the past decades, and is now changing back as a result of so much debt.

When i was a kid back in the 60's/70's, the middle class was a group of hard working people that had a mortgage on a small 1,200 sf older home, a car that you self maintained, maybe a john boat, and one television. Enough savings to take one vacation a year, and get the kids through school.

That all changed. The new definition of Middle class became two cars - one luxury with a personal mechanic you know by name, several state of the art televisions, in ground pool, new 2,500 sf house, lawn care service, and children that you support until they are 25....the upper class of the 1960's.

With the debt crisis in this country, the middle class is not shrinking, it is going back to reality.

We are a spoiled nation that is starting to realize being a citizen of this country doesn't guarantee middle class.

I am sure many will disagree.

Vince M


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 09:54 am:

So Ralph, can you elaborate on what happens to our exports when we put in place the import inspections and the like you mention? I always like hearing your views on economics.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 10:11 am:

Vince, about the only people I see here that live like that are the ones with either a government job or a welfare check. Even here, in semi rural Montana it seems like nobody builds a little 2500 square foot house. This is the state capital and headquarters for all sorts of Federal government programs and operations. Anybody who is working a regular job can't afford your definition of middle class.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 10:18 am:

I don't see a drastic drop either. I've been through 3 T's. All bought fairly low, (in need of some work - get running ect. nothing major) and sold each on for a profit. The last at a handsome profit. People will pay for a good running car. Where I've noticed what I consider high prices are with some of these barn find rust buckets with a buyer that has to have it. perhaps it's the first one they've come across and they jump at it. I live in an area that's considered light on T's but I refuse to jump yet I've managed to find 3 with good paint, bodies and interiors within 35 miles of home and all were well under $6000. A 3 or 4 grand barn find isn't worth my efforts and as Rick from Pawn Stars says: " Every body thinks What they've got".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 10:27 am:

Import inspections paid by the importer is nothing more than a tariff where the money goes to the private inspector instead of the government. What happens? Our exports get whacked with an equal or greater duty.

What happens when foreign importers decide to boycott us due to high tariff? I'll bet we'll be sorry we sent all of our manufacturing and technical support jobs overseas.

Obligatory T content: What happens to the price of model T's? They continue to plummet, but not as fast as the fall of the average man's income. It won't matter when you can't get fuel, oil, or a permit to drive that antiquated machinery on the government owned roads.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 10:40 am:

I've got two 26's that I can't get what I have in them, even though I reduced one of them $1500.00 because I removed and swapped out a Ruxtell that was in it. I had a chance to part them out, and I guess I'll end up doing that, since it is the only way that I'll ever get back close to my investment. I live outside of Houston and there just doesn't seem to be much interest, here, except from Hot Rodders, and then they want it for scrape prices.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 10:44 am:

The MIDDLE CLASS is a toss around title. Anyone earning over $40,000 or under $250,000 is middle class and that makes up about 90 percent of us. In the depression it was $1,500 and $4,000 so it moves around from time to time.

Our government wants us to need them and their programs. The way they do it is to make things cost more money and reduce jobs so we don't have the money to buy things. Then we need them to bail us out and them is actually us but with service fees and taxes added. We spend the money that we had under the bed and then we have to borrow, that is their goal. It all works until they run out of our money.

There is a vast underground of bartering going on. Uncle Sugar is planning on charging a sales tax to the buyer and to the seller when a dwelling changes hands. There is a move afoot to change the way internet purchases are taxed. As it is you pay taxes on items sold to you in your State. They want taxes charged interstate and not just intrastate. Please vote carefully and often because they do.

I have heard that there is even a ploy afield to get rid of cash money so that each transaction must be done electronically and taxed both ways sort like the B. J. Auto Auctions just going on now in New Port Beach or Costa Mesa California this last week end where the car sells and then there is a 10 percent buyer and seller fee added on.



In California we have a vast multimillion count population working on a cash basis with fake S.S. numbers. The Government loves it because the f.i.c.a. money is paid in but can't be taken out because the paper work doesn't jibe. The workers get started with this system and then they get around it by getting paid with short jobs using 1099's. Or simply cash. One family member has the paperwork and so has a lot of expenses and a lot of dependents so gets deductions. The whole thing is real sweet. . . . for them. Please vote carefully and often because they do.

I just purchased a boat a couple of days ago and am taking it to our other home in another County. I was asked if I wanted to register to vote in that county, no other questions, just give them an address when you register any item that requires a license and you can register to vote. . . . again. I hope you understand where this leads to. No S.S. number, just an address.

They call it the motor voter clause and some folks love it because it lets them vote their own special self serving agenda. Please vote carefully and often because they do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 10:55 am:

Good question, Doug. Since we import $6 of goods for every dollar we export, and they say it will cause a trade war, BRING IT ON. The majority of our exports are raw materials and scrap, like a third world country. I may have to give up bananas and coffee, but little else. How about you?

Good observation, Vince. I've read that in 1972 the average man could support a family of four and put away 14% in savings. If his income was lost, the wife could step in and bring in at least half as much, keeping them in the middle class.

Now it takes two incomes to just hold on.

We should not be distracted by all the electronics we have today. The cost of a single tv back then would buy all the electronics in the same house today. Electronics is the only thing in life where you get more for your money every year.

Most of the job growth from 2000-2007 was govt jobs. Remember, Cheney said in 2001-2 deficits don't matter. Since 2007, govt jobs have been cut, and the private sector number of jobs may have increased, but at lower wage.

Leming, your sarcasm is ill-aimed. Obama is mostly Bu$h III, just not quite as much sociopath as the Village Idiot Draft Dodger. He got elected by Wall Street, and can't get re-elected without Wall Street. Money will buy the election of the next Prez, again, and will continue to own CONgress. The people buying our govt will get fat returns on their investments, at our expense.

It follows that toys for the rich will increase in price, while the Middle Class scrambles to slow their losses.

We the people have less influence than any time since 1914, which was the start of the $5 day, and the Middle Class. Don't thank Henry Ford; thank James Couzens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 11:03 am:

I think it is a combination of several things.
1. Those who remember when Model T's were everyday transportation are getting few in number. The large majority of collectors remember the 50's and 60's "Muscle Cars" and so they are most popular these days.
2. People who have lower incomes today,some of whom have lost homes and jobs, and a higher cost of living, just don't have as much to spend on toys.
3. The uncertainty about the future causes those who still have means, to be very cautious about their investments. Some don't even buy new clothes until the old ones are in rags. They are just waiting to see if they too, will suffer from the hard times.

Hopefully, all this will change with time, but whether the Model T hobby will regain its popularity, is a question only time will answer.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 11:07 am:

And possibly this:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 11:15 am:

Terry interest isn't high here either. None of the cars I had/sold stayed in-state. All went to rural areas. Where have you advertised? (if at all). There aren't many free sites but there are a couple of cheap ones like Old Rides where you can run forever for about $10.00. I guess you can part them out but I also think you'll be storing an assortment of stuff for years in the process. Some of it will go quick the rest will gather dust. If it's a "clean out" you're looking to do keeping them whole might be best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 11:33 am:

Most internet quotes are bogus. ~ Abraham Lincoln

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/private-banks-quotation


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 12:08 pm:

Abraham Lincoln Vampire Killer. What bloody genius thought that up and better yet what Einstien backed him with $$$ ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 12:55 pm:

Lol I think the title ruins it for people, but I actually went and saw it. It's a pretty neat idea, it just wasn't packaged to get people on board very well. I think they gave away too much in the previews instead of enticing people. I have not read it, but apparently there is a book that is an excellent read that the movie is based on.

Just FYI, when I first heard about it, I thought the exact same thing: "Seriously? That has to be a bad spoof" Not suggesting everyone rush out and see it, but it's not nearly as bad as it looks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 01:30 pm:

Thomas Jefferson said a lot of stuff, but he didn't say that stuff....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 01:53 pm:

Thanks to Bushobamanomics, personal wealth has gone down substantially and with it, the purchasing power of the dollar for everything from real estate to vintage cars. Since the value of most things of value has gone down, so too, has the price they can be sold for. Add to this, the fact that unemployment has stayed at an all time high above 8% for the longest time since the Great Depression (more if you figure in part-time workers and the folks who have stopped looking). People who are having a hard time keeping food on the table and a roof over their head will naturally, not have enough to purchase non-essential luxuries such as vintage cars. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 02:35 pm:

I think they count people who have exhausted their unemployment compensation as "stopped looking." Sure, they have probably stopped reporting to the govt which jobs they have applied for, but you can bet most of them are still looking, and would take a job if they could find it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 03:26 pm:

Stephen in answer to your question you are partly right as the people who grew up with and drove Model T's are dead or their going to be pretty soon.
Model T's are a "poor mans" or lower middle class hobby car. Their will always be interest in them for old car guys as they were what put America on wheels. But not at really big prices. A nice restored average black era T goes for around 9 to 15 thousand depending on what extent it was restored.
Right now though the big money cars and most popular are the cars from the 50's thru the 70's. These cars are what the guys who are in their retirement years or close to it grew up with.
They have money to spend and some of them a lot of money ! The cars from the muscle car era are the hottest right now and getting hotter. Check out some of the car auctions on TV and you will see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 04:15 pm:

A rare penny that is worth 4 cents, is worth 4 times its original value.

A model T is worth on average 20 times its original price.

Its all relative to the original value of the object as a general rule.


Vince m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

If you're in this hobby for the investment and money, join the fellows on the stock exchange.

My 0.02$

PS: Problem with western economy is that the danish economy is so small. We have record trade balance these years so something we must have done right. (sarcasm may be found in this post)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 10:40 am:

Michael,

It must be all those Danish cookies in tins we buy that are making your economy so strong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 11:40 am:

Hmm... Michael, Strong economy, good cookies and Model T Fords... Denmark sound like a pretty nice place to me! (sarcasm optional)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 12:03 pm:

You forgot that they have national health insurance. Everyone is covered. Visitors from the states included.

And the prettiest blond girls on the planet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

Dave, Your last sentence is reason enough for a young single fellow to visit. As for me, I don't need to since I married a beautiful blond in 2006, with ancestral Scandanavian roots. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

Jim,

That doesn't look like kransekage to me.

Beuatiful blond, yes she is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Hey Michael would you like to join my club IBMers get in for free!


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