Ethanol dissolving galvanizing in fuel tank

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Ethanol dissolving galvanizing in fuel tank
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clayton on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 07:44 am:

my 1914 speedsters carb has a buildup of white material in the intake side of it.carb cleaner and brake cleaner wont take it off.i had to bead blast it to get it off.is there anything that will clean the internal passages.the car has lost a lot of performance due to this problem


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:05 am:

It is corrosion. I've been having a lot of trouble with water in my gas since the move to E10 at local gas stations.

Luckily the T sediment bulb is a very effective water seperator. If you drain a teaspoon or so from the tank every so often you will have less trouble with these sort of problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:36 am:

Royce, Would it help to add a small amount of water neutraliser or dispersal product, like is put in diesel to rid them of water, or do you think its necessary?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:59 am:

Terry,

The problem is that E10 attracts water, much more than the previous E5 did. Then, if the car sits still in the garage for a few days the water settles out to the bottom of the tank. If I drain the water before driving the water seems to be harmless. If I don't the car starts running poorly and the water collects in the float bowl.

The products you speak of are made for diesel. Probably not a good idea to mix with gas. I hesitate to add anything to the fuel since the side effects might be more corrosion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 10:14 am:

The white material is due to leaving gasohol in the tank too long, it has nothing to do with moisture. I can not understand why people think that using alcohol in gas will attract water, the water must be in the tank to be attracted. Why is it that people will add "Heat" to their gas tank to disperse moisture, and then complain about alcohol attracting water to their tank. "Heat" is the same kind of alcohol found in gasohol. Gasohol will remove any moisture from your tank, helping to avoid corrosion. You can add 2 cycle oil to the fuel to help avoid the reaction of the gasohol to the galvanize tank.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 11:11 am:

Gus, ethanol is hygroscopic, so it absorbs moisture from wherever it can get it, including the atmosphere. With the open vent, the humidity does not have to be in the tank to be attracted into the ethanol. It will pull moisture into the tank from the air around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygroscopy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 11:43 am:

Derek,
The moisture must be in contact with the alcohol for it to attract it, there is no gravity field put out by the alcohol to attract the moisture, it must be present in the tank for it to be absorbed, if you have a vent in your tank, moisture will enter the tank and condense inside the tank (the reason for keeping a full tank) and that condensation will be present whether or not you have alcohol in the tank, the only difference is that alcohol will absorb the moisture and disburse it with the gas thus keeping it from causing problems in the fuel system. If you have 10 gallons of gas with 10% alcohol in your tank, you will need to have a gallon of water enter the tank before it separates from the gas if the gasohol has not been "watered down" by you supplier as alcohol used in gasohol is required by law to be anhydrous, that is 200 proof.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clayton on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 02:02 pm:

the fuel in my tank is only a couple of weeks old.i did however drain it out and then put in five gallons of new fuel.i then bead blasted the carburetor and put everything back together.it still wont run down the road at forty miles per hour without acting up.how do i clean the passages in my holley nh.is there a product i can soak the carb in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

Brian.....forget about soaking to "FIX" anything.
Unless you want it look nice soaking will help looks but not function.
Take it apart (all 4 pieces...lol) and wire out every passage and hole you find.
Follow up with some blasts of brake or carb cleaner afterward which will do more good than 3 years of soaking....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 02:35 pm:

Brian,
I understand that galvanization and ethanol are not friends. Meaning it produces an unwanted byproduct of white chalky junk.

The solution I have heard (on modern cars) is to change your filter a few times an after about 1000 miles (5 tanks?) your galvanization is all gone and you don't have to worry about it.

Though I am in favor of ethanol as an alternative, I agree with others it shouldn't be forced (and wasted?) in all gasoline as it is. Personally I think it is just a way that supports oil companies monopolies.

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 03:13 pm:

I agree with Gus. I do not believe that ethanol actually 'attracts' moisture. I believe it only 'absorbs' moisture that comes in contact with it. I do not believe it ever 'separates' out either, unless as stated above, the amount of water exceeds the amount of ethanol, as water and ethanol are 100% soluable in one another.

I just got done running E-85 exclusively for a year in my TT with no corrosion of my galvanized fuel tank. I do not know what has deposited itself in Brian's carb, but given that I had no such problem with E-85 over the course of a year, I find it hard to believe that two weeks exposure to E-10 caused it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:40 pm:

Hal, your experiment was very nicely documented...... :-)
The ethanol will clean up a "corroded" tank.
I don't know what the brownish, sandy, stuff that forms inside is but the ethanol does a bang up job of removing it and keeping the tank clean.
I try to avoid having less than half a tank full of gas at all times.
More gas = less evaporation and less tank surface exposed to the atmosphere.
I haven't had one second's worth of trouble using our "may contain up to 10% ethanol" fuel ever.
We run some of our old OLD tractors, sometimes, as infrequently as once a year and have not experienced any difficulty due to gasoline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 05:05 pm:

Craig that residue could very well be what we used to call varnish (wrong name). It is the remains of dried (pre ethanol) fuel. Pre ethanol fuel won't disolve it but ethanol fuel will. Marina's went wild here when ethanol was introduced. It seems the plastic (nylon ?)tanks used on boats is very prone to this and the filter companies made out quite well because of it. Some filters were actually changed daily until the tank cleaned up. After that it was OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 05:11 pm:

AHA! Thanks Charlie....... :-)

We had just finished getting a late 20's Minneapolis 17-30 tractor running and it went to a show, on a trailer, about 50 miles away.
When it got there they had a terrible time starting it and it ran like crap.
When it came back we found the fuel strainer and inlet to the strainer completely plugged with that fine. sandy, residue.
Then it dawned on me that the ethanol had cleaned up the tank.
After a little flushing it was perfect again and, two years later, we ran it again just last Saturday........ :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

I use Star Tron in every fill up. Can't over treat it. Its made for Marine applications but can be used in any engine. No problems here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:52 am:

Well......

I have lived in dry Denver with E-10 for the last 8 years. My T's have had no problems with E-10 and I have never had problems with water or corrosion in the fuel system even if I don't drive them for the 5 or 6 months of winter. But I always add some 2 cycle oil to the gas at every fill up! Blue gas will not pass muster with the self appointed expert on this forum but for some reason I never have any problems with floats sticking or water in the gas!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 01:19 am:

I've only ever run my T on E10 and after 10yrs still no problems. Never seen any water in the sediment bowl (mine is glass), or had any kind of corrosion or other problem. Inside of the petrol tank looks the same as the day I got it.
And, I run my my mower on the stuff when it's been sitting in a can for a year and it starts first time. No probs with E10 here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 09:25 am:

If you run E10, you will never see water in the sediment bowl, the alcohol disburses it. The way to test for alcohol in gas it to take a glass container and fill it part way with water (about 20% if you suspect the gas contains more than 10%)mark the level of water in the container, then fill the container with gas, seal and shake. Allow the mixture to settle, and check the mark, if the water line is the same, there was no alcohol in the gas, but if the water level is higher than the mark, there was alcohol there. If you have 10% Gasohol, you will have to add at least 10% of the volume in water to get the alcohol to separate, so if you find water in your sediment bowl, you will either find a whole lot, or the gas did not have any alcohol in it to begin with.
An ounce of water in a gas tank with out alcohol will kill and engine, and cause corrosion, but it would take a gallon in a T tank to do the same if you have it filled with gasohol, this urban myth about gasohol separating was started by the big oil companies and a lot of people bought into it.
Best
gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 09:38 am:

Over here in Sweden before gasohol we had to spend a lot on small ethanol bottles to pour in the gas tank of daily drivers during wintertime just to prevent freezeup in the carb. Now it's not needed, the ethanol in the gas takes care of the atmospheric humidity that may condensate in partly empty tanks in the cool weather. I had a beater Opel ten years ago that stopped in traffic several times while cold - as soon as I learned to fill some ethanol in the tank the problem disappeared and never happened anymore.
If there are any real problems with water separation from gasohol, then I think it's restricted to really really humid areas. Just like with the carb stove/pre heater issue - your mileage (and climate) may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:05 pm:

One of the required preflight procedures pilots perform before flying is to check for water in the fuel by means of a small drain at the bottom of the fuel tank. Due to its' penchant for absorbing water from the atmosphere, fuel containing ethanol are forbidden from being used not only in planes, but in boats as well, so it is not supplied to airports or marinas. If it was a safe and reliable fuel source for planes and boats don't you think it would be recommended for use in boats and planes instead of discouraged? For that reason, as Purchasing Director, I purchase only non-ethanol gas for the vehicles where I work. Yet another case where the government needs to butt out. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

You can get an APP for your I-Phone that will direct you to non-ethanol fuel sellers nearby. We have a number of places here and that is all we buy. No need to take the mileage hit for the privilege of driving up the price of corn, feed, and food.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 01:15 pm:

Gus,
I agree with you 100% and thank you for explaining how alcohol will absorb 100% of its volume in water. Most people don't believe me when I tell them that.
I used to laugh years ago when people would talk about "watered down gasoline", but now, with the alcohol, it is possible to water down gasoline up to its percent of alcohol content. This leads to more questions; is a little water in the fuel mix good? Some of the early oil burning tractors, including the Fordson, added water to the fuel/air mixture. On the other hand, how much water is too much for combustion in modern engines?
In the old days we used to check for water in our storage tanks by putting a paste, can't remember the name of it now, on the end of a stick that would reach the bottom. The paste would turn a bright red to the level of the water, if present. Now, with gasohol, that won't work unless there is so much water there the alcohol is full. With gasohol it would be very easy for it to have a high water content either accidently or on purpose. The best way to test for water content in gasohol is with two graduated cylinders.
If you read this Gus, maybe you would explain The Reed Vapor Test and the difference between summer and winter gas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 01:57 pm:

Hey Jim,
I think yo will find that the reason alcohol is not allowed for general aviation is because it dissolves some rubber components, not because it absorbs water. Again, alcohol can not absorb water in a gas tank unless it is present, and if it is present, the water is a bigger problem than the alcohol.
Hey Randy,
I know very little about gasoline, the winter blend has an oxygenater added, in the past they used MBTE, but it was a major health hazard. Now alcohol is added in place of MBTE, it is cleaner but lowers the power of the gas, as was shown in Hal's test. Alcohol is a good clean fuel, but it is expensive to produce, and it takes food from the mouths of starving people around the world, and for that reason alone, should be used sparingly.
Best
gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 02:48 pm:

You don't want to burn winter gas in the summer in any car, especially a Model T; it will vapor lock. In the spring and fall major suppliers pick a date when they change the additives that control vaporization, they want the winter gas to vaporize easier than summer gas. Different parts of the country will have varying additives. Up here in northern Minnesota there is a big difference between summer and winter gas, where as southern states may see little difference.
When we used to burn a lot of gas on the farm we would get it by transport load and had separate tanks for summer and winter gas. Now we burn more diesel and only use one tank for gas so we watch the calendar and don't get over stocked with the wrong gas.
The Reed Vapor Test is performed by placing a sample in a large test tube with a stopper and pressure gauge. The test tube is placed in a container of ice water till it gets cold (32 degrees). Then the test tube is placed in a container of 160 degree water. The rise in pressure on the gauge is your vapor pressure. You want low pressure for warm conditions and higher pressure for cold conditions.
Gus, I agree with your views on alcohol in the gasoline, it's not working out very well on many levels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 02:57 pm:

A. Gustaf.

Scientific tests have confirmed that fuel containing ethanol does absorb water. Water is present in the atmosphere and does not have to be physically introduced into the fuel tank in order to be absorbed into the fuel. It can be absorbed from the condensation in the atmosphere.

I looked at your profile and can see that you are a farmer in Idaho, which explains your defense of ethanol. That is not a criticism. If anything, I respect you for what you do. Farmers are the most hardworking and perhaps the most beneficial occupation in the country and if I were a farmer and could benefit from the conversion of my crops into ethanol, I'm sure I would be all for it too, as farmers don't get paid enough for all they do as it is. Respectfully, Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 03:18 pm:

Gas already in the tank is constantly evaporating and pushing air out of the tank.
The only time "new" air enters the tank is when filling or driving.
The tiny amount of air that enters the tank through the pinhole of the vent doesn't amount to peanuts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 03:30 pm:

Here is just one of hundreds of articles and reports that can be found in an internet search of "ethanol absorbs water": www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/Ethanol.html.

Do your own search and read more about it. The links are too numerous to post here. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

My grandson and his Dad are fixing to resurrect an 84 Ford pickup that's been sitting for about 5 years. Any suggestions as to what fuel system problems we might run into and what can be done about them would be welcome.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

Hey Jim,
I have to admit that ethanol in gas has benefited farmers, although I do not produce any crops so used. But I will still argue that ethanol can not absorb any moisture that is not in the tank, it is physically impossible. The moisture must come in contact with the fuel to be absorbed, and the tank wall stops that from happening. Granted, moisture can enter through the vent in the cap, but that will happen whether or not you use an alcohol blend. As far as hundreds of reports on the webernet stating it can absorb moisture from the atmosphere, well, there are hundreds of reports on the webernet that say Elvis is alive and held captive at area 51. If you put a tray of ethanol in a humid room, I think you will find that it evaporates long before it has a chance to absorb any moisture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 05:11 pm:

If ethanol is as hygroscopic as some believe, you could check your fuel level today and again in the morning and have more then than today. Do you really think alcohols is going to suck moisture from the air in your garage through that teeny vent hole? The moisture that it absorbs is what moisture that is present in the air that comes in that vent hole to replace the fuel that was burned. When that air gets cold, the moisture in it condenses and gets in the fuel. If you have pure gas, the moisture goes to the bottom to be drained off by the cocky on the bottom of the sediment bulb. If you have ethanol, it just mixes. I'll find a psychometric chart later and see if I can determine how much water ten gallons of 100% relative humidity air contains. That is a very unlikely scenario, but is the worst possible case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

Dang autocorrect spell thingy on my new phone!

That should be cock and psychrometric.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 07:54 pm:

OK, somebody check behind me, as this is a lot of math.

From psychrometric chart:
At 89F (Highest on my chart) and 100% relative humidity, there is .0298 lbs of moisture per lb of air.
At 35F (Lowest on my chart) and 100% relative humidity, there is .0042 lbs of moisture per lb of air.

So say you filled your 10 gallon tank with fuel and ran it all out in a 100% relatively humidity atmosphere. As you used the fuel, air at 100% relative humidity took its place. Now say you parked your car and it got down to 35F overnight. The air originally able to hold .0298 lbs of moisture per lb of air is now only able to hold .0042 lbs of moisture per lb of air. That means .0256 lbs (.0298-.0042) of moisture condensed in the tank for every lb of air in the tank. So now the question is "How many lbs of air are in the tank?" The density of air at 29.9 in Hg and 35F is .080 lb/cu ft. 10 gallons is 1.337 cu ft. 1.337 x .080 = .107 lbs of air in a 10 gallon tank. .0256 lb moisture/lb air x .107 lb air = .003 lb of moisture in the tank, which is .0003 gallons or .042 fl oz. That ain't about CRAP!

Now until some more moisture laden air gets into the tank, I don't see it getting anymore moisture into it. Yeah, it can 'breath' as it warms and cools and yeah the moisture probably doesn't breath out once it's inside, so yeah, over time, it could build up, but I don't see it sucking the moisture out of any air that isn't already in the tank.

If I feel like it later, I'll calculate how much moisture could get in due to 'breathing'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:04 pm:

On the subject of hygroscopy, but with a substance I have more experience with than ethanol, DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air right through a sealed plastic container.

It's not a big deal in a regular street car, but in a racing environment where moisture lowering the boiling point of the fluid can have catastrophic results, any race car driver or engineer will tell you they only use high-performance type brake fluids that come in a metal can with a foil seal.
If hygroscopic fluids can absorb moisture through a sealed plastic bottle, what can it do through an open hole?

Gus is right though that the moisture will stay dispersed throughout the fuel, and will not separate to the bottom of the tank until there's more water than alcohol. Using brake fluid as an example again, DOT 5 synthetic brake fluid is not hygroscopic, so any moisture that enters the system settles to the bottom, and can cause calipers and wheel cylinders to rust, as well as having small pockets of water in them with a much lower boiling point than the fluid which can lead to brake loss.

While a DOT 3 or DOT 4 system is more likely to get moisture in it, moisture in a DOT 5 system causes more problems. The same can be said about E10 or pure gas from a strictly moisture-related standpoint.

Corrosion of other types are a whole different discussion, but luckily we don't have much for rubber, cork, or paper materials in a typical Model T fuel system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clayton on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:08 pm:

my 1914 speedster is relatively new with only 500 miles on it.the fuel tank is also new.when i drained the fuel i noticed the inside of the tank was covered in white blotches.that is why i thought that the galvanizing was coming off the tank and being suspended in the fuel only to be deposited on the inside of the carburetor.if this is the case then i might have to consider flushing the tank with acid to remove some of the zinc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 02:09 am:

Hal,
I love your calculations!

People can follow your test or calculations.

Either way for normal running water absorption is not a issue.

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:13 am:

Water (H2O) contains 2 atoms of hydrogen to 1 atom of Oxygen. Just because you can't imagine two gasses making up water, doesn't make it not so and to some, it might be just as hard to imagine that water is present in all air, everywhere, even in your gas tank. It doesn't have to come in through that tiny vent hole in its liquid form, it is already there on a molecular level in the form of hydrogen and oxygen and only needs the right conditions to re-form into water.

Ever see a glass of iced tea on a warm summer day with water condensation forming on the warmer outer surface of the glass? Same thing can happen in your gas tank. The cool night air mixing with the warmer gasoline in the tank and voila. Water condensation on the interior of the tank. It is a common problem which should be familiar to us all.

This is the water pilots need to watch out for and ethanol loves to absorb 50 times faster than non-ethanol gasoline, before the temperatures equalize and the water condensation goes back into the atmosphere. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:47 am:

The E 10 here has a bunch of water in it. The procedure I use is to drain the fuel the day after I fill up. I got perhaps 8 oz of water from the 8 or so gallons of gas. It is easy to see in a glass jar.

I did try a different gas station to see if the busiest station in Dallas had more water than the other one but the amount of water was similar.

My garage is air conditioned on weekends, and relative humidity id often 50% or higher here in Dallas. We had 100 degrees here yesterday for the day time high.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 07:04 am:

When I was a kid in the 60's and toys weren't banned because they might contain something that, God forbid, might possibly scratch a kid, I had a chemistry set. One of the experiments I did demonstrated how gasses, hydrogen and oxygen, make up water.

It involved taking apart two old D-cell batteries and removing the small 1/4" x 2" rod of solid black carbon from the center of each, then taking glass and two test tubes filled with water and positioned upside down in the water. A 6 volt lantern battery was used and the positive battery contact was connected to one carbon and the negative was connected to the other carbon and each inserted into the down turned opening of each test tube. As soon as the carbons made contact with the water, thousands of small bubbles immediately began to form on the surface of the carbons and float to the top and collect in the closed bottom of the down turned test tubes. The negative side collected twice as much gas as the positive side which means that the negative was the hydrogen gas. As soon as enough gas had formed the top of the test tube, the experiment suggested that the test tube on the negative side carefully be removed and the opening held close to the flame of the bunsen burner. A small pop would ensue indicating that was the flammable hydrogen gas side.

This illustrates that the same two ever present gases, prevalent in the air we breathe, are what water is made up of. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 07:31 am:

Jim, your post about the water condensing on the glass is exactly what my calculations are showing. But the moisture laden air has to be in the tank before any condensation from said air will form in said tank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 07:52 am:

Hal. First of all, thank you for your experiment. It takes alot of perseverence to perform a reliable experiment that takes in all of the necessary variables that are needed, in order to draw the proper conclusions.

With all due respect, though, as I said, moisture laden air is everywhere at the molecular level and, not necessarily in liquid form. Of course in some areas such as Arizona the level is much less, as opposed to Florida and Texas where the humidity is more.

If the humidity level could be different inside the tank, as opposed to the ambient air, as you seem to indicate, I suppose one could make the argument that the moisture level inside the tank could be more than outside the tank but I would surmise that the humidity level both inside the tank and out would, more likely than not, pretty much equal. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 08:55 am:

Jim and Royce. There can be up to 10% water disolved in E-10 without any free water visible in the tank.As Roger explained earlier - in the Nordic countries it was normal practice to add alcohol to the gasoline to both absorb and hence remove condense water from the tank and avoid icing in the carburator.
Of course a gasolene with 10% Ethanol and 10% water will not fire as easy as 100% gasolene.
When you have as much water in the gas as ethanol, the ethanol is saturated with water and will neither absorb more or disolve more. If more water added (through condensation most likely) you will start seeing free water in the gasolene. Now THATs no good.
Royce, ifthere is so much water in the gas around your place, the dealers and the distributors have problems, but who wonders what they had before the alcohol.

Galvanising are a thin layer of pure zink added either by dipping in melted zink or by electrolysis. Ethanol cannot disolve zink, but sour water may. Water disolved in Ethanol is not very chemical active, so again - if you have free water in an E-10 quality, you have other problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 08:57 am:

Jim,
Moisture laden air is everywhere, but you seem to forget that the steel gas tank does not allow the moisture to penetrate to the fuel. That same fuel tank stops the gas and alcohol from evaporating.
Royce,
If the E10 has 10% alcohol in it, you should be draining nearly a gallon from your 8 gallon fill up. I suspect your gas supplier is already adding water to his gas (or his tank is allowing water to enter), and the alcohol has separated in his tank, the only other possibility is the E10 does not really have any alcohol in it.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:09 am:

OMG. I can't believe what you just wrote, Gus. I give up. I guess the old saying, "There is none so blind as he who will not see", applies here. You guys go on with your love fest for ethanol and the belief that water condensation cannot form inside a sealed fuel tank. The facts are there for those that can see, can read and can understand. For the rest of you, enjoy your ethanol. I don't have to use it and I won't and will rejoice the day when a common sense Congress reverses one of the worst, most harmful and most intrusive laws they ever passed. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:22 am:

Jim,

I understand that the moisture is in the air and is not in liquid form. It only goes into liquid form when the air cools and can no longer hold it. That is what is happening on the outside of your glass of ice water. If air is cooled, its relative humidity increases until it gets to 100% (ie, its dew point). At that point the moisture begins to condense out of the air as it can no longer hold it. The cold surface of the glass cools the air around it until it can no longer hold moisture and it condenses on the surface of the glass. The same thing will happen to the air inside the fuel tank. In my little math problem above, I was not assuming a different humidity level inside than outside, but I did try to make it the worst case scenario by assuming a really hot and humid (100% relative humidity) day and a really cold night. The temperatures were the max and min that were on my psychrometric chart. That would produce the most condensation inside the tank.

The one thing that I did not consider in that first set of calculations was how much additional air would be drawn into the tank as the air inside cooled and 'shrunk' if you will. That turns out to be a little more complicated, as the humidity ratio (Lbs moisture/lb air) changes with temperature. So I took the average humidity ratio between 89F and 35F which came out to be .017 lbs moisture/lb of air. Using the Ideal Gas Law and assuming constant barometric pressure (V1/T1=V2/T2), I calculated the volume of the original 10 gallons (1.337 cu ft) of air to shrink by .811 cu ft when going from 89F to 35F, which means .811 cu ft of air would have to come in the vent to take its place. Assuming an average density (.076 lb/cu ft) of the air at its two temperatures, multiplied by the .811 cu ft gives .062 lbs of air. Multiply by .017 lbs moisture/lb air gives .001 lb moisture divided by 8.34 lb water per gallon gives .0001 gallon or .016 ounces of condensation from 'breathing' in more air at night as the warm daytime air in the tank cooled. That gives us .058 ounces of water condensing in the first night. If you did nothing else and let the tank 'breath' for 59 more days of 100% relative humidity weather at 89F in the day and 35F at night, you would get 1 ounce of condensation.

For the life of me, I don't see how you could get any more moisture into the system than that. With the exception of a tiny vent hole, the tank is sealed. I think we can all agree that any air or moisture that gets into the tank, must come through that hole. I also think that it is a pretty good assumption that the only moisture that comes in, comes in suspended in the air that comes in. We say that ethanol 'attracts' water. My calculations (Assuming they are correct and someone please check behind me) show what moisture is available for the ethanol to attract. I just don't see where any more moisture can come from.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:31 am:

Air comes in whenever you unscrew the fuel cap and it does not take much for the air to enter and fill the space inside the tank even through that "little vent hole". Stop thinking of water in the liquid form. That is not what enters the tank through the vent hole Think Molecular, molecular, molecular. In a molecular sense that little vent hole in the gas cap is the size of a the state of Florida in comparison with a grain of sand. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:42 am:

Another way to illustrate the size of an atom is: If an apple were enlarged to the size of the earth, an individual atom would be the size of an apple. With such a size variant, that makes that tiny vent hole pretty gargantuan and the space inside the tank able to hold a whole lot of H2 and O atoms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:46 am:

I know this may sound like a contradiction, but I'm really not a proponent of ethanol. I do see it as a renewable energy source and I would love for us to not be dependent on foreign oil, but I guess for me, it comes down to the almighty dollar. Contrary to some wild estimates of reduced gas mileage, I believe mileage on E-10 to be in the 97% of E-0 range. Therefore, in the $3/gal range, you can afford to spend roughly 10 cent more a gallon for E-0 and still break even. For that reason, I run E-0 in everything except my TT for the experiment and that will change with the next fill up.

While not a proponent of ethanol, I am a proponent of the truth. Therefore, I don't care for wild claims of gloom and doom even if they are against something I am also against. Hence my accepting the challenge to run E-85 for a year to prove it wasn't going to rust out my fuel tank. Same applies to wild claims of greatness. If something is so dang great, let it stand on its own merit. Don't pump it up to be something it is not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:58 am:

Jim,

You made your last two post while I was typing my last one. I am NOT thinking of water in the liquid form. I don't know what makes you think I am. I specifically said the moisture is coming through the vent suspended in the air. My point is that the air only contains a certain amount of moisture. Once that's inside, that's all that's going to be there until some more air comes in. The only thing that can cause air to come in is for you to use some of the fuel and the air come in to take it's place, or else for the air to cool, and therefore shrink, and draw in more air. I accounted for both of those in my calculations. Yes, you can take the cap off and make it a little easier for air to get in, but it won't be much easier, as some has to go out before some can come in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:14 am:

Dry air draws moisture out of humid air, so while the air in the tank might not be changing, the moisture will continue coming in through that hole, albeit much slower than it would through a bigger hole.

While it's a pretty insignificant amount, it occurs continually until the alcohol is saturated, which can take several months to a year or more depending on how much fuel is in the tank, how much moisture was in the fuel to begin with, and how much moisture is in the air.

It's never been a problem for my Model T even when it sits, because its the easiest thing to drain the gas out of so it gets emptied every time I need gas for the tractor or lawnmower and don't have any in the cans.

I have only experienced ethanol related problems with the snowblower, and that I believe was caused by the rubber hose from the tank degrading and particles ending up in the carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:15 am:

Hal, I think in a way we are saying the same thing in a different way and are typing over eachother in an effort to convey our point. I know you understand where I am coming from and I understand where you are coming from, but in my effort to try to illustrate my point in the simplest possible terms to others who don't seem to understand, you incorrectly assume I am speaking directly to you, which is not the case. You get it and my statements were not directed towards you. My apologies if you took offence. None was meant. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:20 am:

None taken Jim. On the contrary, I find this a very interesting discussion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:20 am:

Royce, are you sure it is water you are draining out? What have you done to determine that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:25 am:

Even supposing that ethanol attracted water as strongly as is being claimed by some here. It shouldn't absorb any more than it is capable of dissolving. At that point there is no gradient to drive the process. And by definition, no water would settle out, as it is all in solution with the ethanol. At that point, only the addition of liquid water (via condensation perhaps), or removal of the ethanol (by evaporation, for instance) could produce a water phase.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:43 am:

I agree, Hal. It appears that, if the water laden E-10 has not achieved its' saturation point, the water remains soluble in the alcohol and cannot be seen, which does not lessen the harmful effects on a running engine it is fueling. With this in mind, is there a way to determine how much water the E-10 contains? ie, In regular gasoline, water is insoluble and thus, sinks to the bottom of the tank. Can the water be separated from the E-10 and pulled to the bottom of a sample by centrifugal force? If there is anyone who works for a lab that has a motorized centrifuge who can put some E-10 in a couple of test tubes and see, that would be very enlightening. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 10:55 am:

One major problem with water (even if it absorbed completely and doesn't settle out) is with microbial growth. Anytime you introduce moisture you raise the risk of of this contamination. If you have ever seen the tanks of an aircraft that had this problem you wouldn't be proponents of anything that raises this risk.

Read on any of the two stroke forums and you will see that even 10% is detrimental to them. I had a good Homelite weedeater for about 10 years, then TN mandated 10% and it ate the fuel hoses in the tank. I replaced them and the carb diaphram went bad along with the fuel primer bulb later that season.

My big question is really this. If ethanol is such a good thing why can't it stand on its own without subsidies? Without being subsidized, none of you would pay more for it than straight gasoline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 11:05 am:

I don't pretend to understand all the chemistry concerning air, water, gasoline, and ethanol. But, this is not a new problem. It did not just begin with the new ethanol fuels.

My personal experience was 50 years ago when I owned a Volkswagen Beetle. That car had a standpipe in the bottom of the tank and no gas gauge. When it got down to the point of sputtering, you kicked a lever and you had another gallon of gas to get you to a gas station.

Where we lived was near the ocean and we didn't drive very many miles, and so we filled the tank about once per month. I used to top off about once a month and did not use that extra gallon at the bottom of the tank. Well one day I got low on gas and kicked the valve. It sputtered to a stop!. You see, the bottom of the tank was filled with water which is heavier than gas and settled to the bottom. Eventually the tank rusted through and I had to replace the tank.

I think we have a similar problem with the Model T's. We only drive on occasion, and so they set idle for months at a time and pick up water through condensation.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 11:49 am:

Jim,

I have read where you can mix water with E-10 until it separates, then drain off the water laden ethanol from the bottom, leaving you with gas on top. What I'm not sure of is whether the water laden ethanol will actually settle to the bottom. Obviously any excess water will settle out, but I don't know that you would actually have three different layers (Gas, then moisture laden ethanol, then water). But some say so. Might be a fun experiment. I do believe you could determine the amount of ethanol in gas by adding water until it began to separate. The amount of water added before separation should be equivalent to the amount of ethanol originally in the fuel. You could check before and after doing the other experiment and see if it worked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:23 pm:

That would be an interesting experiment Hal. Take a gallon of E-10 and carefully mix in water until you reach the saturation point then determine how much water it took to reach that point to find the ratio of water to E-10 to attain the saturation point. Then I wonder if you could use the results on a smaller scale to determine the amount of water in any source of E-10 by taking say, a 1/2 a cup (4 ounces) of E-10 from your tank and carefully pouring in water until reaching the saturation point then divide the difference by 32 (128 ozs in a gallon divided by 4 ozs.) to determine how much water is in the smaller sample of E-10.

How would one go about distilling the ethanol out of say 20 gallons of E-10 so that you had just gasoline. Of course with gasoline, one would not want to use fire like the moonshiners distilling whiskey, so is there an inert chemical that one could pour into the E-10 that would cause the alcohol to separate? If so, which would be heavier? The alcohol or the gasoline? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:31 pm:

I read in this thread about the water problem with the new Ethanol Gasoline blends and the E-85 fuels but my issue is the terrible mileage and power loss with Ethanol.

My question is why would anyone want to use on a regular basis, fuels which are 10% to 30% less in power and fuel mileage.

I have always wondered about the Air pollution argument for cleaner fuels such as the popular Ethanol. I have a question for those in the know.
If a vehicle has to burn 20 gals of Gasoline to make a trip to City X, and it takes 22 gals or more to make the same trip with a Gasoline Ethanol Blend. Are we really being so called Greener when we have to use so much more fuel to accomplish the same trip than if we are using straight Gasoline?

What do you think?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

Hey Brian,
Sorry this thread has stayed off topic, I will try to get it back on topic. I have not answered your question because you do not want to hear my solution to the same problem. I had hoped someone else may have offered a better solution. Years ago, I had the same whit bloom develop in the tanks on several Honda 3 wheelers over the winter. I was unable to satisfactorily clean the mess from the tanks, so I replace them. The carbs required disassembly and cleaning. I had never had this problem before, and it occurred over the winter when the ATVs were unused. I did ad a product called Stabil to the gas tanks of the ATVs that had the bloom, but I do not know if that aggravated the problem or not. The white stuff is evil.
Now back off topic,
Hey Hal,
Water and alcohol will mix completely, if you add enough water to E10 to get it to separate, you will have two layers, one of straight gas and one of a mixture of alcohol and water. as for Jim, I can understand his frustration with me not getting his point, he is right, alcohol will absorb moisture from the air, but I can not understand why he would be removing his gas cap thousands of times between fill ups to allow moisture laden air into his tank, and even then, he is going to experience more loss of gas an alcohol from evaporation than he will have water absorbed.
Hey Norman, you are right about the condensation, it adds up over time, and that does prove that Jim is right that moisture does enter the tank and condense, but if there was some way to get that moisture that is in the tank to be absorbed by the gas, so it will burn with out killing the engine would be a great thing, there is a product called Heat that can be added to the gas to do just that, but you do not need to add it to gasohol, because it is the same thing that is already in it.
Best
Gus
PS does some one know a way to get rid of the white powdery stuff? I am sure Brian is not happy with my solution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:42 pm:

Here is the address for an article at EPA about ethanol containing gasoline.

epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

It confirms much of what is written here concerning the dangers of long-term storage and the dangers to both two- and four-stroke engines.

Per the article, absorption of water from humid air alone would not occur fast enough to be an issue. The temp-change condensation condition would be more likely to introduce water into the mixture.

If Royce is experiencing phase separation overnight in his tanks, it looks like that solution he's seeing would be mostly ethanol, and would probably ignite. But you wouldn't want to do it in the engine of a Model T. The bigger question is where is the water coming from that could cause that separation. It's not coming from the humidity in the air if this happens overnight and we can presume he's not splashing water into his tank. So perhaps it is inadequate purging of the underground storage tanks at his local gas station?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:51 pm:

Jim,

The test for water content in ethanol is a very simple one; all you need is two graduated cylinders. Lets say you are testing some E10. Put 10oz. of E10 in one cylinder. Put a measured amount, lets say 5oz. of water in the other. Slowly add the water to the E10 till the volume just starts to increase. 10oz. of E10 should absorb 1oz. of water. If you add only 1/2oz. water and the volume begins to increase, your ethanol sample has 5 percent water in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:52 pm:

One wonders, too, if we should consider the potential benefits of phase separation. Before embarking on a long tour, you could drain the ethanol/water mix from the carb or the sediment bowl and have a quick snort before cranking. One for the road, if you will.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 01:18 pm:

Going back to the iced tea example, where the water condensation can get so heavy that the water runs across the table I can see where on a cool night the condensation could get so bad that quite a bit of water could run down the sides of the gas tank and into the gas. After many days of this, the volume of water could be quite substantial.

Now as to the subject of separating the ethanol from the gasoline... Am I understanding this correctly, that, if one were to obtain a clear 30 gallon capacity tank with a spigot at the bottom for draining and fill it with E-10, are you saying that you could add enough water to achieve saturation/separation thus allowing one to drain off all of the water-saturated ethanol leaving 100% gasoline? If that is the case there just might be a run on industrial sized aquariums among T guys. :-) LOL! Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 01:31 pm:

Condensation in the gas tank was an issue in the early days just as it is now, perhaps we are over thinking things a bit. Doesn't the Model T manual recommend that you keep the tank full to avoid condensation getting in the tank? And if water is present drain sediment bowl when water gets in the tank.

I know that Ethanol absorbs water, but wouldn't keeping the tank full help the issue Royce is reporting?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 01:49 pm:

Matthew, I think the difference is that in regular gasoline, the water goes to the bottom and can easily be removed either by draining or by running through the engine with a short period of spit & sputter until the water is gone with no danger of degrading the entire tank of gasoline, whereby, in E-10, with an absorption rate 50 times greater than straight gasoline, as time goes by the E-10 becomes increasingly saturated with water until the entire tank is contaminated and degraded, with no way to remove it except to dilute it with fresh E-10 thus contaminating the fresh fuel, or to run your engine with it until gone.

Either way with a car that sits for any period of time, like our cars sometimes do, it seems like the E-10 will, at some point, become contaminated and perpetually degraded.

Studies have shown that even under the best condition, E-10 has a shelf life of just three months. Even though it does not remain in most car tanks that long, I'm sure there are E-10 fuel storage tank farms in which at least some of the E-10 has been in there that long in that, when delivered to the service stations, degrades the good E-10 that is in the underground tanks, making it even less efficient. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 01:49 pm:

It happens when I fill the tank and then let it sit overnight. How would I fill a full tank any further?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 02:15 pm:

And with a full tank, the condensation pathway is closed. Per the article, the humdity-scavenging pathway is too slow to occur overnight. So the only explanation would have to be a contaminated fuel storage tank at the gas station.

Jim, to your question about using water to "scrub" out the ethanol, there will always be *some* ethanol remaining in the gasoline. The ratio of partitioning would depend upon the relative affinities between the compounds. But in the end you are also mixing some water into your gas/ethanol mix that you won't be able to remove. That is to say, when the gas/ethanol solution has dissolved all the water it can, additional water does not cause the dissolved water to come out of solution and join the water phase - it will remain in solution with the gas/ethanol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 02:37 pm:

I believe the volume of the fuel will change as soon as the water is added. I just think they will mix until saturation occurs, not that the volume remains unchanged until saturation occurs. You guys are gonna make me go fill glass jars and experiment, aren't you?:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 02:47 pm:

Yes Hal. Like Ron Patterson is known as "Ron The Coilman", we may, yet, succeed in christening you as "Hal The E-Tinman". :-) Let us know what you discover on this latest E-10 adventure. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 03:43 pm:

I can think of 4 ways moisture laden air can get into the tank. 1: driving the car draws air in through the vent. 2: Opening the cap to check the fuel level. 3: Changes in bariatric pressure which will draw air in as the pressure rises and force air out when it falls. 4: Fuel expansion when parked in the hot sun which will force air out, and contraction on a cool night which will draw air in. I know that in some areas the temperature difference between day and night can be very little, but in the Southwest, it can sometimes be over 100F during the day, with freezing the next night. personal experience, a coffee pot of water frozen solid during the night while camping. By 10:00 AM we were going around in our shirtsleeves. Fortunately, however, our humidity is quite low so would not draw in much moisture.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Solak on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:35 pm:

Norman,

There is another way besides the introduction of fresh air via the 4 methods you've described above. Theoretically, with a T's tank always having an open vent, just by sitting in your garage water will enter the tank - in vapor phase. Water vapor in air (humidity), just like every other chemical, will seek to be the same concentration everywhere, and accomplishes this through diffusion.

As the gas/ethanol mixture removes water in the vapor phase from the headspace of the tank, the humidity in the tank's headspace drops below that of the ambient air outside the tank. That will create a differential between humidities, and nature will seek to remove the differential (or gradient) by driving water vapor through the vent into the tank headspace, irregardless of the flow of air caused by other reasons. The only way to stop this is to seal the tank.

BUT this is not necessary, as per the EPA article I referenced above, someone has looked at this phenomenom and concluded that it is, in effect, negligible. The rate of absorption of water from the air is too low to worry about. The greater concern with humid air, etc. comes from condensation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clayton on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 11:07 pm:

i changed my carburetor and the car runs fine.i appreciate all the insight.thanks Brian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By HARRY A DAW on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

I have not seen anything about what is generally referred to as fuel stabilizer. I use one that is pink in color and ad an ounce per 5 gallon of gas which is what is recommended. Does anyone have any "facts" on the positive or negative of using this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 11:45 pm:

One of my other collector cars is a 1968 Mercury Cougar with a factory installed 427 side oiler. The carburetor keeps screwing up in the past year from the crappy E10 gas. I have to disassemble it every 2 - 3 months to clean all the corrosion off the accelerator pump dribble pin and the main jets. The needle / seat assemblies clog and stick open or closed from the corrosion on them. As you can see the cadmium plated float bowl bolts corrode severely, these were new in February of this year.



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