Rookie with a Tranny

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Rookie with a Tranny
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

Ok, I removed the floor mat and boards and found this. For those guys with similar set-ups, this red wire is coming off the relay(?) to the left of the screen. It was laying loose on the shroud like that. Any idea where I should put that thing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 03:34 pm:

I'll bet your E-Tranny is not shifting properly anymore, is it?:-)

Seriously, my money is on that wire going to whatever you are using for a starter switch. Push button? Third key position? Power to that wire should engage your starter. NOT original, by the way.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 03:39 pm:

Grin...

Yes, not original, Hal. The previous owner bypassed the foot switch on the floor and put a button on the dash. I'd like to hook the floor switch back up but that is a task for another day.

The reason I'm going into the tranny today is that it barely moves in low gear so this is my first attempt at adjusting a band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 03:50 pm:

Is this amount of crud in the screen normal? Abnormal? Seems like most of the holes are clogged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

Wrap it in tape, and get on with the low band. . You're burnin' daylight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:03 pm:

Houston, we have a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Fenton on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:15 pm:

Looks like that wire is off the magneto terminal. Where is the other end? John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:18 pm:

There should be a spring in between the low band ears like the other bands. If that spring fell into the transmission, you have a problem. If someone in the past left it out, you should put it back in. The adjustment for the low band is that screw with a nut on it at the right side of the transmission on the outside. It's possible that someone took out that low adjustment screw and the spring fell down in. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you need to find out exactly what happened to the spring. If you can't fish it out of the transmission, you might need to pull the engine and transmission to find it or verify that it is not down there and while it's out wouldn't be a bad idea to reline the bands. From the picture, it looks like you still have some lining left on the low band. If you can find the spring, put it on and adjust. You might get lucky.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:22 pm:

Ah, just checked John. I had made an assumption that it connected to the other side of that relay or whatever it is, but it does not. It goes into a wiring harness where it has been taped off at the other end. It was a nonworry as it turns out.

But now...the question remains, can I adjust the low speed band with that spring missing??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:30 pm:

Apparently the band is springy enough that it's been working OK and the pedal stays where it's supposed to stay.
Run it........but order a spring....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

NOrm, I just talked to the previous owner on the phone. He owned the car since 1957. Although he's approaching 90, he's a very coherent guy.

I asked him about the spring and he said he doesn't recall one way or another whether there was a spring in there last time he had the cover off. But then, he couldn't recall the last time he had the cover off, either.

But he also posited that if the spring was still in there and dropped to the lowest point of the pan, he wondered if it would present a problem.

Off to the web to look for an exploded view of the tranny....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

Craig, is that band adjustable without the spring? I know it sounds like a silly question, but I am a near-total neophyte when it comes to these all things T.

I'm not turning a nut until I get clearance from you experts...grin....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 04:55 pm:

Danial you're either the luckiest T guy around or that spring was never replaced. I would drain the oil and go into the pan with a mechanic's magnet (on a stick) and try to find if it's still in there laying in the bottom of the sump. If it's there and hasn't caused a problem yet it's just waiting to happen. I don't believe it will fit through the drain hole but you might be able to hook it with a long piece of mechanic's wire. Hook the spring & twist the end of the wire so you won't lose the spring then pass the free end of the wire back up through the drain hole keeping to the side of the case as much as possible and pull it (hopefully)out. You've got to at least try to find it in case it's there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 05:00 pm:

The purpose of the spring is to relax the band around the drum and return the pedal back to it's original position. It also keeps tension on the band ears so the band doesn't rattle around when your foot is off the pedal.

Because the clutch pedal is also linked to the clutch, the clutch spring is also involved in returning the pedal partway to its original position, at least the distance from low to neutral position.

You can adjust the band without the spring which determines the amount of pedal travel it takes before the band locks the drum. Without the spring, that is only half the equation because you don't want the band to drag on the drum when your foot is off the pedal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 05:02 pm:

Danial- I'd be willing to bet that because you're running a distributor, that red wire is the wire that originally came off of the magneto plug as John mentioned. If so, just tape up the end and secure it some way.

Totally off the subject, and I'm sure you've noticed this, but just in case, one of the bolts that secures the top of the hogshead to the back of the engine block is very loose. (???)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 05:39 pm:

Charlie - I have been fishing with my piece of mechanics wire for the past 30 minutes, literally. I'm not hooking anything nor am I getting the sense that I was moving anything loose around, but of course, that's hardly conclusive. It appears that the plug hole in the bottom may be big enough to pass the spring. I will try that another day as I do not have the oil to put back in the tranny.

Erik - Thanks for the input. I will make an attempt to adjust the band since I have it opened up and see if that gives it enough grippage to drive it back into the portable garage.

Harold - Good eye! Grin...I didn't catch that myself until I looked at the picture when I edited it. I have since tightened it. Thanks.

As always, thank you everyone, for your assistance...you gotta love the MTFCA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 06:06 pm:

RE: drain plug at the bottom of the sump.

The drain hole is not actually as big as the drain plug because there is a baffle/slot at the bottom of the sump at the drain hole. By looking at the drain plug, you would think you could easily put your finger into the hole but that is really not the case.

If you have skinny fingers, you may be able to poke your pinky up there and feel for the spring at the bottom of the sump. Otherwise, you may need someone with really skinny fingers (wife, girlfriend or neighbor kid) to stick their pinky in the slot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 06:16 pm:

I have fingers like Roseanne unfortunately.

Ok, adjusting the band. Ford Service Manual says, ""Adjust low speed band by running in the adjusting screw on outside of cover and running down the lock nut tightly against cover."

So...do I just basically tighten the adjusting screw in as far as it will go? Snug? Reef on it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 06:35 pm:

When adjusting the bands tighten them just enough so that when you push down firmly on the pedal the pedal stops about 3/4" from hitting the floor boards.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

Thanks Stephen. I did exactly that and now it moves around like new again! But I'm not moving it much until I can make the determination as to whether the spring is still in the pan or not. Saving that project for another day.

I pulled it out in front of the house for a quick photo-op...grin...will leave it parked there for the gawkers until nightfall and then pull it back under cover.

Thanks again to everyone for the help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 07:55 pm:

Dennis: If you lay under the pan and look up through the drain hole (oil drained obviously...) with a good flashlight, you may see the spring, or who knows what.... Using a plastic mallet and tapping around the bottom of the pan may "move" the spring or whatever into view. Then it's fairly easy to "wire" out the little offender. Using a magnet on a bendable wire (with a 90 degree bend) you can rotate it around in the bottom of the pan and possibly snag something and pull that into view, also. It works, I've done it for a band nut. Good luck! I might ad, that the best advice this forum has to offer would be for you to try to get in touch with a T guy near you, and thus, a T club. They'd most certainly help you out in any way they could, and T'ers are a very friendly, generous bunch!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:10 pm:

If the magnets are still on the flywheel, they could pick up the spring. In fact, that might be why the magneto is not working. If the magnet picked up the spring, it could sever the magneto coil. It could also break off the teeth from the starter ring. I don't want to be an alarmist, but I have had both those things happen to a Model T. Not by a spring, but by a bolt which came out of the driven plate. You might be able to see better what you have there if you remove the hogs head and drain the oil. Then use a flashlight. Also a probe with a magnet on it could be helpful. If you can't find a spring, at least your mind will be more satisfied.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:12 pm:

Thanks for the suggestion, Joe. I'm going to do just that when I get some replacement oil for the pan. Something I may not be able to do until this weekend.

I have tried without success to get in touch with local T'ers. And the nearest club is 1409+ miles away...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:14 pm:

As I understand it Norm, the previous owner purposely caused the magneto to stop working for reasons unclear to me. He said it was still in the car however.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:44 pm:

Danial, a couple weeks ago I relined the bands on my '27 Tudor. I got a set of Kevlar linings from Rocky Mountain.
WONDERFUL service I might add too along with plenty of rivets! Not counted out to the EXACT number needed!
When I got the bands in I set them up pretty loose.
I'd rather readjust the bands 12 times than run too tight and ruin something.
When I adjusted the low band (the one you are talking about) the spring was floating on the pins.......not doing anything.
All three bands have plenty of tension by themselves to operate well without any springs at all.
I wouldn't lie awake nights worrying about the missing spring but I would get one....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

Indeed, thanks Craig. I just want to make sure it isn't rattling around in the pan. My sense is that it is not, but I need to be sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 02:19 am:

Danial,
That photo looks great! I like it. Odds are that the spring is not in there, but then again?
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 09:22 am:

Thanks Wayne! I hope to find out this weekend for sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 09:50 am:

Daniel: Here's a picture of the inside of a pan. This one is a four dip, and I assume they are all a little different, but basically it should look like this. I put a magnet in to show how it can be done. Good luck!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:22 am:

Thanks Joe. The visual helps. Looking at that, it looks like I will have a tough time pulling the spring through the bottom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:28 am:

Truthfully I've never stuck my finger in there. Never had a reason to but what was the purpose of that slotted plate? Was it just something to back up the threaded fixture that held the plug?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:51 am:

After seeing that picture I went out and looked at a half dozen pans. Most of them have the slotted plate, but it's missing on a couple. Your car probably has it, but might not.

Charlie, the answer is no. It's held in place by only the two rivets, and isn't connected to the plug hole in any way that I can see. What's it for? Beats me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:59 am:

Danial -- According to info on the MTFCA home page, there are 4 Model T clubs in Oregon and 4 in Washington.

http://www.mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm#wa


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:38 am:

Thanks Mike. The closest one of those four is still over 80 miles away from where I am unfortunately. Just not close enough to be very convenient with a 60 hour work week.

On a related tranny question...when I buy the oil for this thing, what should I get?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:09 pm:

LOL There's whole threads and threads on what oil and what to add or not add. It's CRAZY. I roll with Rotella T 10w30 (diesel engine oil) with some Marvel Mystery oil. (I add a bit of that to the gas too). So far she runs and drives like a dream. I recently had the oil pan off and everything looks awesome in there.

I've seen where one guy replaces a quart of his oil with ATF to help the transmission and bands. All kinds of stuff.

Personally, the engine and trans are so simple, and the stuff that Henry had on hand back in the day was so much less engineered and developed, virtually anything you can put your hands on now will work and isn't going to hurt anything. Just pick what makes sense to you and roll with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

If you already know this then just slap me, but just inferring from the way you talk about the transmission in your posts, I wanted to add a note:

The engine and transmission in a T share a common oil system. The transmission doesn't get its own special oil that is different from what the engine gets. You fill the oil from the breather at the the front passenger side of the engine and it flows past the crank and pistons and then down into the transmission area. So when you drained the oil from the transmission, there's virtually no oil left in the engine either.

Not trying to be captain Obvious, just making sure.

Happy T'ing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:19 pm:

I can tell you this: Though it's the recommended oil (from days of yore) you'll have a heck of a time starting in the winter with straight 30 wt. non-D. A good multi grade, 10-40 for instance, is fine. I'm not one for additives my self but a lot of guys here like to experiment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:20 pm:

Danial,

Looks like a good time to take your engine apart for a full inspection. I will only take a week to have it back in and running well and you can paint things while you are at it. You don't have to take the whole thing apart, just remove the head, hogs head, and pan. Check for loose bearings, extra parts in the pan, missing parts, clogged oil pipe, etc. Always a good idea with an unknown engine.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:27 pm:

Grin, no worries, Seth. I appreciate all advice. Even though I have owned this T over a year now, this is the first season I have had a chance to dig in and get my hands dirty and learn something about her innards.

And thanks for the oil advice guys. I think I will keep it simple for now and go with the 10-40 as Charlie posted.

As for taking it apart and going through it - I'd love to, but not ready to take that plunge yet..grin..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lorenzo leon on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 08:04 pm:

Danial is that a loose bolt i see on top of the trans.cover? where the hogshead bolts to the engine ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

The rear supports are missing too.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

Thanks Lorenzo; I did indeed get that taken care..after I DLd the pic into my computer.

Peter. Can you take my pic and draw arrows pointing to the spot where rear supports are supposed to be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

T Straps.jpg

There should be two straps from the back of the engine to the rear engine mounts. These were added to the '26-'27 year cars to help prevent the rear engine mounts from breaking.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:24 pm:

The crap in the screen is normal. It is from the bands, and other crap that floats around. Clean it out regularly and clean the magnet that sits on the screen too. I do mine at each oil change, it gives a good excuse to have a look inside to see what is going on and do any adjustments if required.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:46 pm:

Much thanks, Peter! I'll find out what those look like and see if I have a pair here. I have a dozen boxes of miscellaneous T parts.

Also thanks for the info on the screen. I scraped some of it off and it looked like band material. I then used compressed air and blew the rest of it out of there. (I don't recall seeing a magnet though.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:58 pm:

No trouble!!!
If there is no magnet on the screen, find a strong small magnet and sit on the screen to catch the metal floating in the oil. You will be amazed as to how much there is in there and this just helps to remove it so it does not float around as there is no filter to screen it out. I have had one in my '23 for years and still amazed at how much grey looking crap it catches.
This is normal and unless you find huge chunks of metal inside of your engine, nothing to worry about.
The straps should not be hard to find. I would put them on as they help to prevent the cracking of the rear engine mounts.

Peter

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

Indeed. I will definitely add both, and soon. Going to be ordering the missing spring soon and if I can't find the straps here, will order those as well. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:19 pm:

If I were missing a spring in my transmission I would be in panic mode - always wondering where it might be and when it might show up in the wrong place.
When It might do a bunch of damage!

I was somewhat that way with the rear end thrust washers.
Every time I drove the car I worried about them.
I finally pulled things apart and found that they were ready to fail.
Boy was I glad I fixed them.

As I get older - Peace of mind is important.
There is less mind so it takes less for it to be at peace. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

Part number for the braces is T-3116.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

I have original braces and new springs available danuser88@ktis.net Fulton Mo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:32 pm:

Danial, If you go to you local car dealer(a Ford dealer if possible) and ask if they have a Flexible Shaft Borescope. Most of them have one. The good ones have a little video camera at the end of a flexible shaft that you can stick down into the transmission or up thru the oil plug. I had a spring pop off and fall up into the front of the triple gears(in front to the trans. and it was not to hard to get it out with the scope and an extra set of hands. If you can borrow one or buy one if you can't borrow. It might save you a lot of work and worry, and can be a very valuable too to have!
Just my thoughts! Good Luck and Happy Fishing!....Chip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 11:57 pm:

Harbor Fright sells a borescope or two.

If you're still fretting with it in a couple of weeks, I will bring my borescope. I'll be at a family reunion in Lebanon on the 21th. Will probably stay with my sister in Springfield.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:45 am:

Fred, that was kind of the mode I was in when I took that cover off and realized that the view in the pan did NOT look like the picture in the book (sorta like my mom's cookin').

That's a good idea Chip, thanks. And it just so happens there is a Harbor Freight in Eugene.

Ricks, great of you to offer your time, sir. Carol and I are going to be on the coast the 20th and 21st. I'm really hoping to have this wrapped up this weekend. I can't let another summer slip by without getting this thing out and about a bit.

If I'm still fussing with it by the time Sunday the 22nd rolls around, I'll send you a note and invite you out. Of course, you'll be welcome to come out either...grin..


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration