Trany trouble

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Trany trouble
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 10:39 am:

I AM NEW TO THE TEE'S I PURCHASED A 27 ROADSTER AND HAVING TROUBLE WITH THE HIGH GEAR IT WORKS FIN IN LOW AND REVERSE. BUT WHEN I PUT IT INTO HIGH IT SLOWS DOWN, ALSO WHEN I START IT UP IT WANTS TO GO FORDWARD. I HAVE READ THE MODEL T TRANSMISSION BOOK AND COULD NOT FIND ANTHING.
HELP NEEDED
ROGER


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:51 pm:

Roger:

1. Please take the capslock off.

2. I must ask this, are you sure you know how to drive the T, how low and high gears work? I am trying to confirm that you description is accurate and not confused by incorrect application of the controls. You do have the lever forward when trying to shift into high --- right?

3. The fact that it wants to creep forward when you start and that the high gear appears to be slipping are somewhat contradictory. The forward creep indicates the clutch plates are grabbing, putting it in high indicates they're slipping.

4. I'm sure you will hear disagreement on this point, but ever since I started to use 5W-30 in my T, I have had NO trouble with creep when starting.

5. BTW you do have the lever all the way back when starting?

Fell free to elaborate on your problem, there's lots of help available here !!

Welcome aboard!

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

When you put it into high, WHAT slows down? The car? Is it actually slowing down, or just not accelerating as fast as you think it should. Acceleration in high is pretty anemic, but it should eventually go faster.

Creeping forward when the engine is cold is not uncommon, especially with single grade oil like SAE 30, although a maladjusted clutch can also be the culprit. A dragging low band COULD cause it, but probably not as common as clutch out of adjustment and certainly not as common as thick oil dragging on the clutch plates. You might be surprised at the improvement when using 5W-30.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 03:19 pm:

I am assuming that you are driving on a level road or area. You first rev the engine in low and then push up on the throttle as you let the pedal all the way out into high. After it engages high gear pull down the throttle and let it speed up to the speed you want to drive. There is quite a difference between low and high, and if you don't get going fast enough in low before you shift, it could bog down.

If you are going uphill when you shift into high, it is entirely possible that the car will slow and stop. In that case you will need to pull the hill in low.

All this assumes that the engine is in reasonably good condition. If it is not running on all 4 cylinders, you might not even be able to run in high on level ground.

When you shift into high the engine will be going must slower to keep the car running at the same speed in low the engine will go quite fast. It is normal for the engine to slow down when you shift into high, but the car should gradually pick up speed.

Please post more details describing exactly what happens. If the engine speeds up in high but the car slows down, your clutch is slipping and needs some work done. It's hard to understand exactly what is happening from your description.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

WHEN I START THE CAR I PUL THE LEVER ALL THE WAY BACK. IF IF PUT THE LEVER ABOUT HALF WAY FORDWARD AND TRY TO START THE CAR IT WILL CREAP FORDWARD. WHEN I PUT INTO REVERSE IT WORKS FINE THE SAME IS FOR LOW. BUT WHEN I AM ON LEVEL ROAD I GET GOING GOOD SPEED IN LOW AND THEM THROW THE LEVER IN FORDWARD AND IN ABOUT 30 SECONDS IT WILL GO FASTER IN LOW BECAUSE IT IS SLIPING OR SOMETHING. AM I CORECT IN THINKING THE THE CLUTCH DISK ARE OK BECAUSE IT IS WORKING IN REVERSE AND LOW. IS THERE ADJUSTMENTS THAT I NEED TO MAKE ON THE HIGH LINKAGE OR SOMETHING.I AM GOING TO CHANGE THE OIL. AND PUT IN DIFERENT OIL.
ROGER


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 07:50 pm:

Roger,

You ought to get a copy of the Model T transmission booklet from the MTFCA, or, find some model t folks near Nevada, Iowa. The booklet will clarify how the Model T transmission works. It is not the same as a modern stick shift. It is really more like a modern automatic where you do the "automatic" part.

Basically, Low gear does not use the clutch, only High gear uses the clutch. The Low, Reverse and Brake drums are constantly in mesh with the output shaft. Low gear tightens a band on one of the transmission drums and stops it from rotating. That causes the triple gears (in mesh with the Low drum gear) to rotate about the Low drum gear. That causes your car to go forward slowly.

Reverse does the same thing with the triple gears, only now they rotate about the Reverse Drum gear. Because of the relative sizes of the drum gear and the triple gears, your car now goes backwards slowly.

The brake pedal tightens a band on the Brake drum and slows your car down. This band is your only brake on a Model T.

Now, for High gear. To engage High gear you must put the parking brake lever all the way forward. When you do this, you need to keep a foot on the Low /Clutch pedal to keep it about halfway down. That is neutral on a Model T. To engage High gear, simply release the pressure on the Low /Clutch pedal and allow it to come up. Back off on the gas at the same time and you are now in High gear. Do not slip the clutch like you are used to on a stick shift. You want to engage the clutch quickly, and minimize any jerkiness by backing off on the gas, then accelerating once the clutch is engaged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 08:08 pm:

I'm still not clear on what is happening. You say you get going in low then throw the lever forward. I assume you take your foot off the pedal when you do this. If so, that would put you into high. What happens then? Are you closing the throttle when you shift into high? If you shift into high without closing the throttle, the clutch can slip and it probably won't stop until you do close the throttle. When you shift into high, does it sound like the engine is revving? If so, that is a sure sign of the clutch slipping. If this sounds like what is happening, try closing the throttle when you shift and see if it helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

Also check for your pedal hitting your floorboard when in high gear. My pedal was hitting my floorboard so high gear wasn't totally engaging causing it to slip a little.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:23 am:

Roger - Driving a T can be a challenge even when everything works and is adjusted correctly.

Think of it this way -

The brake handle locks the clutch up and put the transmission in high gear when it is in the forward position.
When it is in the middle or fully back the clutches release and the vehicle is in neutral.
When it is fully back the parking brake is activated.

To move forward you release the brake by going to the center position and press the low peddle.
To go backwards you put the brake in the center position and press the reverse peddle.

Now comes the fun part ---

When the brake is fully forward you can get to neutral by pressing half way down on the low peddle.
Push too far and you engage low gear! Release the low peddle and you’re in high gear

When the oil is cold the car will creep forward in neutral –unless the brakes are on – because the oil is viscous enough to cause drag between the clutch plates.
Many of us jack up a rear wheel and move the brake handle to half way when starting a cold T so we don’t have to overcome the drag of the clutches.

To drive the car you put either put the brake handle half way forward or all the way forward with the low peddle half way down to get neutral.
Then press on the low peddle to get going. Try not to slip the bands too much as it is not good for them.

Once you get going accelerate with the gas lever.
Then when you're moving along at a good speed you simultaneously release the low peddle thru neutral to high and retard the gas lever.
It can be a bit jerky until you get the timing correct.
The motor will seem to lug down a bit because the T only has two speeds not 2 or 5 like modern vehicles.
If it lugs down too far you need to adjust your brain to accelerate more in low before going to high.

Getting low peddle and brake handle adjustments correct is the first place to start if you’re having trouble.
If the clutches are slipping you need to adjust them in the transmission or in some cases replace them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 11:36 am:

I think Fred explained it very well. It takes some practice to shift the T. It is really quite easy, just different.

One thing which I will add, which can sometimes cause a problem. If The parking brake rods are adjusted too long, they will actually push the brake lever back when you go into neutral. This will make it impossible to shift into high. You can discover that by simultaneously pushing forward the parking lever as you let the pedal out to high gear. If it goes into high that way, but does not go into high when you don't push the parking brake lever forward. the rods are too long and need to be adjusted to there the clevis pin will easily push through with the brake rod all the way back and the parking lever all the way forward. After doing this you might need to adjust again to get both wheels to stop evenly. When you are all through adjusting, the clevis pin should go in easily and the brake lever should stay all the way forward when you shift into high.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 04:16 pm:

Roger, it sounds as if your low band may be a little tight, try starting the car in neutral and then back off the low band adjustment screw until the car stops creeping and it should be adjusted about right,that would cause it to slow down when going into high, it will also get hot quickly, there are as usual a lot of good suggestions to try,
Good Luck,

rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 04:43 pm:

RICK WHEN I PUSH IN ON THE LOW PEDAL I GOES ALMOST TO THE FLOOR. THERE IS ABOUT 3/4 INCH FREE MOVEMENT IN THE LOW PEDAL WHEN THE PEDAL IS ALL THE WAY RELEASED


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

RICK SENDING A PICTURE OF THE CAR AND A COUPLE OF THE TRANY. THE FINGER THAT THE LEVER FOR BRAKES AND HIGH GEAR LOOKS LIKE IT IS HOME MADE. I AM GOING TO CHANGE THE OIL IN THE ENGINE. JUST PURCHESED THE CAR AND WAS TOLD THAT THEY CHANGE THE OIL AND SERVICED IT BUT WHEN I TOOK TEH COVER OFF THE TRANY THE SCREN HAD STUFF IN IT. THE CAR COME FROM YOUR WAY SOUTH IND.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 05:00 pm:

FORGOT THE PICTURE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:28 pm:

Are you sure that your parking brake or transmission bands are not dragging? First check your bands. Push each pedal down one at a time they should stop firmly about 3/4 inch from the floor boards, no tighter. Next put the brake lever halfway forward and try and push the car. It should move with very little effort. As far as your play in the clutch pedal goes the linkage needs to be re-adjusted. I will see if I can find the picture on adjustment. Let us know what happens.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:45 pm:

I should also say make sure that when you throw the lever forward that the clutch release bolt is no longer in contact with the cam on the lever. Put the floor boards in then throw the lever completely forward. Next pull the lever back gently, it should come back slightly before you feel slight reistence and before you see the clutch pedal start to move. If the pedal immediately starts to move make sure that the floor boards are not preventing the lever from moving all the way forward.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 07:29 am:

Will someone please post the low peddle neutral adjustment drawing? I am on my iPad and can't do it .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 10:32 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 06:51 pm:

Any progress?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 02:15 pm:

SOME THE ADJUSTING BOLT THAT GOES ONTO THE CAM FOR THE NETURAL AND BREAKS IS FARTHER BACK OF THE CAM SOME ONE HAS MADE A FOOT THAT GOES FORWARD AND CATCHES THE CAM. LOW ADJUSTING BOLT WAS WORE BAD AND THE HOLE IN THE LOW PEADLE WAS EGG SHAPED. I PUT A BUSHING IN THE HOLE AND FIXED THAT AND GOING TO ORDER A NEW ADJUSTING L BOLT.
BUT WHAT I CAN NOT FIGURE OUT IS THE BRAKES THERE IS A EXTRA BRACKET THAT GOES ONTO THE BREAK CRADLE SHAFT THAT GOES BACK TO BREAKES ( OUT SIDE OF THE BRAKE BANDS, (TAKE THIS IS ROCKEY MOUNTIN)IT DOES NOT TOUCH THE CRADLE ON THE BRAKE CROSS SHAFT TO APLIE THE BREAKES.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

Could you take some pictures and post on the forum? It's hard to understand what you are trying to describe. Maybe some pictures would help. The Rocky Mountain brakes had a separate set of rods which connect to the outside bands on the rear wheels. From there they go to an equalizer shaft which hangs on the cross shaft of your parking brake. The original rear brakes are connected directly to the shaft. The left one is right under the brake lever, and the right one is opposite on the other side of the car.

If you could take pictures of all the parts from the brake lever, and transmission pedals, and the cam and clutch mechanism. Take pictures with the brake handle all the way forward, and half back and all the way back it would help.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 04:42 pm:

Roger......PLEASE take off the CAPS LOCK?
Pretty please?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 07:55 pm:

HOW DO I POST PICTURES ON THE PAGE? I TRIED ONCE BUTT SAID THAT FILE WAS TO LARGE.

ROGER OLIVER

ALSO I DO EVERY THING IN CAPS SORRY IF THIS UPSETS PEOPLE!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

TRYING TO POST PICTURESPICTURE 1PICTURE 2PICTURE 3PICTURE 4PICTURE 5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

First you need to change your resolution to 72. I make a separate file for pictures I want to post and put a copy into the separate file which I title "to web" Then I bring the picture up and change the resolution to 72. At least on this computer it works. You click on upload attachment below your message and browse till you find the picture you want to post and click on that picture and it will say upload. Then it goes right into your message. To take off caps lock, the key is left of the A on the keyboard. Just hit that key once and you will have lower case. Caps don't bother me, but some sensitive people interpret it as shouting at them.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

TWO MORE PICTURES CALL ME IF YOU WANT TO

ROGER OLIVER
515-231-2500
CENERAL IOWA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 08:26 pm:

All of your pictures look like the parking lever is all the way forward. I can't tell whether the adjustment is in contact with the cam or not, but that part welded to the bolt is not correct. It could make a difference, but if the lever is all the way forward and the clutch arm (the part with the bolt on it) is all the way down and not being lifted by the cam, then it should be OK. The problem could be the length of the rod between the low pedal and the clutch arm needing adjustment. It should be adjusted with the pedal all the way back, and the brake lever all the way forward. The play should be 1/16 inch in the direction shown. That is the rod between the low pedal and the clutch lever should be 1/16 inch short. You might try shortening that rod one half turn and see what happens.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 09:09 pm:

When the lever is all the way forward there is supposed some free play in the lever.......around 1 1/2" at the top of the lever.
I can see the purpose of the "foot" on the adjusting screw but get rid of it so you set up correctly.
You'll need a 3/8" fully threaded, fine thread, cap screw unless you can save that one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 09:25 pm:

NORM I HAVE ADJUSTED THE LOW SPEED LINKAGE WITH 1/16 INCH BUT IF THE BOLT THAT IS ON THE CAM ON THE BREAK WAS NOT THERE THE BOLT WOULD GO BEHIND THE CAM ALSO THE CROSS ARM FOR THE BRAKES THAT GOES ACROSS TO THE OTHER SIDE THE ONE THAT THE CAM IS ON DOES NOT TOUCH THE ROCKEY MOUTAIN BREAKS LEVER IF YOU CAN SEE THIS IN THE PICTURES THE HIGH PARKING LEVER IS ALL THE WAY FORDWARD. IT LOOKS LIKE THE LONG LEVER IS WRONG OR SOMETHING. IT IS HARD TO SEE ON THE PHOTOS. IF I WOULD PULL THE PARKING BREAK BACK TO MAKE THE PARK AND ROCKY MOUTAIN BRAKE MAKE CONTACT THE PARKING LEVER WOULD BE ALL THE WAY BACK OR IF IT WOULD GO BACK FAR ENOUGH.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Roger

It appears in one picture that your parking break is disconnected on the drivers side,is the other side disconnected also.
Just means that your parking breaks are not working.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 10:18 pm:

The parking brakes on both sides are disconnected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 04:10 pm:

When the brakes are properly adjusted, the parking brake should be tight when you pull the lever back. Then the Rocky mountain brake should be adjusted so that it will be tight when you pull the parking brake lever one more notch. So that when you pull hard on the parking brake, it will apply both the wheel brakes and the Rocky mountain brake. Next the foot brake should be adjusted to apply the transmission brake with the pedal about 1 inch from the floor. Then the link between the Rocky brake and the foot pedal should be adjusted so that the Rocky brake is applied just before the transmission brake. Both the rods for the parking brake and the Rocky mountain brake should be connected.

After all these adjustments are made, the bolt should not hit the cam when the parking brake is all the way forward, but when you pull it partway back the transmission will be locked in neutral and all the way back the brake will be on.

There is also an adjustment of the clutch fingers inside the transmission, which could need some tweeking.

I hope you can find someone who lives near you who is familiar with Model T's to help you get everything right. There are so many things which could affect the way the transmission operates everywhere from driver technique, to adjustments or to worn parts. It would be a shame to try to fix something but actually make it worse. I wish I were near you so I could help.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

l think my hearing has gone !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

Question? If that bracket were not on the bolt, would the bolt ride on the cam? The bolt should not touch the cam when the brake is completely forward. The bolt should be turned in less than yours appears to be. When you pull back on the brake lever, the cam should not stop at the bolt, but should go under the end of the bolt and the bolt should then raise the clutch lever. It could be the whole problem is that the bolt is interfering with the cam. Notice how it appears in the picture posted by Dan Treace. If it is adjusted like that, the cam will go under the end of the bolt and lift it as you pull the brake lever. It might help to put a dab of grease here to make it easier to move. In some cases if the cam is quite worn, the bolt can be threaded from the opposite direction and the head of the bolt then rides on the cam.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 03:09 pm:

found my trouble the bronze bushing was installed to tight and froze up and burnt the clutched up. going back together


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 06:11 pm:

Thanks for the update Roger.....but which bushing?
That's what happens when things fit TOO good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Holger T. Berthelsen on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:29 pm:

I would look again at your transmission lining & bands.I don't recall seeing lining like that in a T.It appears to overlap the bands quite a bit.That could cause some lubrication problems to the clutch assembly and bushings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 01:33 am:

Roger Oliver:

There are 7 bushings in a transmission. Which one was too tight?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROGER OLIVER on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 10:17 am:

THE BUSHINGS ON THE PLATES AND THE END PLAY MUST OF NOT BE SET RIGHT BECAUSE THE THREE THRUST WASHER WAS BURNT AND STUCK TO THE BREAK DRUM. ALSO IT WAS CONVERTED OVER TO THE TURBO DRUM HAD TROUBLE GETTING IT OFF BUT I PURCHASED A NEW TURBO DRUM AND INSTALLING IT, IT HAS HOLES IN THE SIDE TO PULL IT OFF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 10:39 am:

Thats a great title, its justgone 12.30 in the morning and if you quickly read that title, you ( maybe not you exactly ) could picture a cross dressing man constantly knocking at your door !!!!!! tranny trouble... just a thought..


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