Excesive rear axle sleeve wear

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Excesive rear axle sleeve wear
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:23 am:

I was working my '26 brakes and noticed that there was play, so I put an order in for Chaffin's axle book. David, who works at Chaffin's, gave me some input and I ordered a few things I was sure I need including the bronze thrust washer;) One thing Dave said may happen is I will have a difficult time removing the roller bearings because they will wear a grove in the sleeve. He mentioned that this can happen if due to a bent axle housing. This is exactly what I found as I took things apart this evening. I had a really hard removing the drivers side bearing. And there was a larger grove worn into the top of the sleeve on both sides.

Now my question: Is there any reason I should wait to get the book before disassembling the housing? (I don't want to take things apart and find I should have waited and done a measurement.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:34 am:

I don't recall anything that needs to be measured before disassembly. Go ahead and take things apart, get everything nice and clean, and when you get the book start inspecting and measuring. My one quibble with the book is that it's impartial on whether to use the stock pinion bearing or the Fun Projects replacement. Most "improvements" to the Model T aren't, but this one really is. I don't intend to ever use the stock pinion bearing again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 12:52 am:

Thanks Steve,
I now have my weekend project- I can have things clean for inspection;) I imagine my order will come early next week.

I looked at the fun project site. Does the spool come with the bearing? Is an original spool the "core?"

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 09:29 am:

Matthew -- You send your spool to Fun Projects and they do some work on it and send it back to you ready to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 01:22 pm:

Okay I got the housing apart.

I found this on the axle. It looks pitted from rust, but when I put my finger on it it feels like lots of sharp edges cutting my finger:


How do you like this safety wire job?


Or the pits on the gear?



I also found the washers on each outside seal to be much different:

One was thick and smaller, the other was thin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

I expect you'll get widely varying opinions on the axle and the ring gear. Some will say, "I've used worse and they were fine. Keep 'em." If the car is driven only a couple of hundred miles a year, maybe they're right. But I don't like the look of either one, and I'd replace them, especially if the car will get much use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 02:36 pm:

Steve,
It is likely I will use the insides of the 1918-21? axle that I opened up for practice:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/291352.html?1341445967

I was told though the housings are different the insides should be the same. On that one the axle surfaces and ring gear look nice.

I am still scratching my head on the "safety" wiring that was put in place.

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 03:14 pm:

Matthew:
It was hard to tell, but the ring gear in the trailer rear end looks like it has LOTS of wear on the gear. You might be in the same boat I was in a couple of years ago, having to find a decent used gear.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 08:01 pm:

Matthew, as for the safety wiring, you just never know what you'll find when you tear into a T. An old friend of mine once took a T engine apart and found the flywheel bolts neatly cotter keyed. Not keyed to each other, but just a key neatly installed in each bolt head and crimped over. You can't make this stuff up. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

That safety wire technique, bolt heads 2x2 is what Ford Service recommended and pics in the book show that method.

I use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 02:56 am:

You can use a ring gear like that for a few years but not a pinion that bad they wear faster i know from experience if that helps you at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 03:57 am:

Dan, I'll bet that you don't use a single wire such as the ones in Matthews post. I'd also bet that you don't install the safety wire to pull loose instead of tight, even though that is what the Ford Service pictures appear to show. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 06:45 pm:

Dan, hard for me to believe, but you are right! I wonder why they don't recommend tying them together.

David, That is funny. When I took apart an old engine and saw what the cotter pin can do on the piston rod bolt with years of wear, I hand more respect for wiring the bolt to the rod.

Bill & Steve, thanks for your advice about looking for a new ring gear. I can see this maybe more of a project than I hoped for.

Kep, When I look at your profile photos I am not surprised that you are optimistic about my ring gear. Please don't take offense of this, if you look at my profile you can see that I enjoy rust too:-) I may go with your advice and do the ring gear job in the future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 04:24 pm:

Steve,
Can you tell me more of why you advocate the fun projects bearing? I know everywhere people talk about the bronze trust washer. Is there similar trouble with stock pinion bearings?

Thanks,

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 04:57 pm:

New parts for the stock pinion can't be found these days. The hardened sleeve is difficult to fit, the replacement rollers are solid, unlike the flexible original ribbon Hyatt pinion bearing. And facing of the tolerance on the front brass bushing at the univ joint is needed to retain gear mesh.



When you use the modern bearing set-up, its real easy and works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

Okay I got only so far on my project.

I started by taking off the outside sleeves with no problem, but the inside ones...

Well this is what happened...



I made this "vice" to hold the axle...


Any words on removing stubborn sleeves?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 10:44 pm:

Those sleeve tools are somewhat flimsy...have several of them now...

Best results seem to be rotating the sleeve in the direction of the narrow 'arrow' V split of the sleeve. That V cut collapses in that direction best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

humm... flimsy? breaking on my third try:-)

thanks Dan, maybe I went in the wrong detection.

Actually, I tried both ways and kept getting harder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 12:20 am:

The inside sleeves are likely just fine. They do not carry near the load that the outer sleeves do. You probably have no real need to remove them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 12:25 am:

The bearing sleeves only remove one direction. I always have to look inside to see which way it needs to go.
Ted D is likely right. I have only ever had to replace a few of the inner sleeves.
My sleeve removal tool looks a lot like yours did before you bent it. But mine is not flimsy at all. I guess they made them better forty years ago. This past weekend I twisted the 18 inch long steel rod into a pretzel shape trying to remove a rusted sleeve. It did not hurt my sleeve puller at all.
Inner sleeves usually come right out from a greasy recently used housing provided you turn the correct direction.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 08:19 pm:

Wayne,
Thanks for your insight. At this point I may make my own tool or re drill the one I have.

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 11:59 pm:

Okay I made my own tool:

here I have it apart:

It is made from a hack saw blade, socket (cut in half), bolt, a piece of wood and tube. The wood makes the spring action work. I did not bolt the blade in the tube, so it has a feature of releasing by just shifting the blade a bit :-)

The tube came from a weight lifting bar. Here is the rest of the bar:


It worked good, but I still was not able to get out the stubborn sleeve, but that was from an axle I was just trying to practice on.

The one thing I found was that following the arrow did not always work. I found I had to turn in the direction of the shortest distance from the hole to the slit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 03:31 am:

Mattthew G (three ts?),
You found the right direction. Sleeves come in righties and lefties, hence why I always have to look inside.
If I recall correctly, old ones came in at least four variations. A righty Vee high and a righty Vee low. Lefties also came in Vee high and low versions. Inner sleeves should be Vee up and forward. Outer sleeves should be Vee down and back. Many rear ends do not have all the right ones in the right places. And many rear ends do not have four different ones. I have always suspected some of the differences were after-market replacements.
I have one rear end that has inner sleeves that do not have the hole in the sleeve. It is a good thing that they are in good shape because I have no desire to figure a way to pull them without spending a lot of time and ruining them.
When you put them in. The two most important parts of all this is that the hole in the outer sleeves must line up with the grease cup/fitting hole. That is hard to get wrong because the detent is 180 degrees from the hole when installed. The Vee slit needs to be down in the outer sleeves, towards the back is best but forward will work okay. The Vee slit should be forward and up for the inner sleeves, but niether one is nearly as critical.
I misplaced my sleeve puller for a few years and made one also. Yours looks a lot better than the one I made. I later found my bought one and keep them both on the same nail on the shop wall.
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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