Hi all. I've noticed some differences in 1926-27 Tudor Sedan bodies. These are:
Doors
-latch mounts on top of inner door skin
-latch mounts under inner door skin
Door hinges
- hinge pin barrel has 3 sections
- hinge pin barrel has 5 sections
Windshield header panel
- recessed style (outer skin only - top in photo)
- enclosed style (inner and outer skin - bottom in photo)
Sub frame rear crossmember
- 3 sections of channel with tabs inserted into ends of sub frame main rails
- 1 section of channel with gussets that attaches to inner side of subframe main rails.
Door garnish (door pull).
- Tapered end (no photo)
- Square end
Can anyone tell me when these different styles were used? Better yet, can owners of unmolested cars advise what combination of features they have?
Andrew
One more variation - rear window panel. One style had a wood frame:
Another style had a steel frame:
Andrew
Andrew, I don't have a tudor; only coupes, but it is well documented that running design changes were made during 26-27, not only mechanically (frame, engine), but body wise, too. I have a 26 and a 27 coupe and there are differences in the floor pans and other things which I haven't closely observed. Thanks for pointing out the tudor changes.
windsheild hinges
windsheild side garnish, screws and shapes
windsheild header garnish
sill plates
alot of things that will make u go HMMMMM thats different
Found a photo of the tapered end door garnish:
Andrew
I forgot to mention the things that Mike mentioned. Add to that the amount and places that wood was used in the body. Some still had wood around the windows, and I think there were differences in the top bow spacing.
Andrew, don't forget that if if you are going Canadian and right hand drive you will need to find a source for the square drive screws that are unique to the Canandian cars. I think they are called Robinson screws and are used to fix all thos moldings on the door tops etc. in fact nearly every screw head you can see inside the Tudor is one of that type. I am unsure where my old Tudor is now but it was a good Canadian example. I will see if I can track it down. Last I heard it was in Mildura.
Warwick... that's close. They are called Robertson screws.
Andrew,
I don't know much about the details of the 26-27 Tudor. I do know that Ford did a re-design of at least the Coupe and possibly the Roadster and Touring during either March or May of 1926. The overall design stayed pretty much the same, but some of the construction and the details changed. My guess - and it's only a guess - is that the Tudor was also redesigned during this same time.
Dave S.
Yes, the tudor was apparently changing all though the production. I've never seen this addressed or put in chronological order, if there is such an order.
I bought my 27 in 1968. In the restoration, I was frustrated by a lack of door sills. Obviously, I thought, a previous owner had taken them off and thrown them away. I looked for replacements for decades. Now, you can buy reproduction 26-27 tudor door sills. They bear no resemblance to the sills in my car.
With the introduction of eBay, I was finally able to find a NOS pair of these peculiar door sills in Canada. When preparing to install them, I noticed something: Each mounts with four 10-32 screws into threaded holes. On the passenger side, only 3 holes were punched. On the fourth hole, the punch didn't make it through the steel. No holes on this side were threaded. On the drivers side all holes were punched, but none were threaded. The sills had not been installed at the factory!
This particular variation of the tudor sills (I've counted three different sill designs) is very similar to the 28 Model A tudor sills, only not as wide. They are made of zinc.
Jim
The early 26s also had a carpeted rear seat heel panel. The carpet was held on with steel spread rivets so the heel panel had holes around the perimeter.
By the way, I reproduce these in the correct reverse 4-panel scheme, the seat brackets and the ankle panels.
James , i dont think all the screw holes were threaded, they used a wood screw style on a lot of them, with a domed head.
Thanks for the responses guys.
Terry - I hadn't thought about the coupes but would be interested in the changes in those too. Some (cowl/doors) would be common with the Tudors.
Mike - I knew there would be more! I'll look at my examples of the windshield garnishes to see if I have different styles.
Warwick and John - there are Robertson screws throughout the body (it was an original Australian delivery right hand drive car).
David and James - running changes makes sense. Hopefully by comparing to complete original cars we can get an idea of when some of them happened.
Ken - thanks for pointing that out. My rear seat heel panel doesn't have the holes but its not from the same body. I suspect there were differences in the angled rearmost seat support also - to match the different subframe rear crossmembers. Mine is like the one you make but doesn't seem to match the 3 supports on the rear subframe crossmember I have. Your new panels look nice. I don't have the ankle panels so will contact you about those.
Andrew
A couple of things that I've noticed. Some cars, I presume early ones, only have one "click" on the gas tank door. The later ones have two. Really late bodies (I presume) don't have the holes for the firewall brackets. It is a good idea to leave them off in any case as they'll cause the firewall to crack. The late cars (again, I presume) have a pad between the gas tank and the firewall, the early ones have two strips of welt and hence, four holes in the firewall.
I have a early 27, engine number oct 26 sold jan 27 it has the open windshield header. A friend has a 26 and it has the closed header. I have wonder if place of assembly may have any thing to do with the difference in cars.
Hi Tom. Thanks for pointing those differences out. I'll check my cowl to see what features it has.
Tim - good info! If enough people comment we might be able to identify a pattern. Good point re place of assembly being a possible factor too.
This has the potential to be a monster thread!
Andrew
My car was assembled in Columbus Ohio.
The Tudor I just did had a "H" body number. It also didn't have any sill panels at all and no screw holes. So not all bodies had door sill panels either.
Besides the carpeted rear seat heel panel mentioned earlier, it had the closed windshield header and all steel around the rear window. The only wood was the body blocks, top frame and the shoulder brace for the upholstery.
While talking with Steve at Lang's, it appears that there are differences in the doors too. I couldn't get the correct lower bumpers for the glass.
I suspect the variations may be related to the body maker rather than Ford assembly location.
My '26 tudor, a barn-fresh survivor (I bought it off the farm where it had set for decades) has two different doors on it!
T'
David D.
How does one find where a particular body was built?
My, new to me, '27 Tudor (Dec. '26) is a totally unmolested car so I'm very interested in the variations.......
Craig,
Find the body serial number. It's on the cross-member under the driver's seat. The number is proceeded by two letters. These letters are the first and last letters in the name of the city in which the car was assembled. AA, for example, means it was assembled in Atlanta. My tudor was assembled in Louisville, or LE.
I wish the car could talk and tell me how it got from Louisville to Atlanta.
I find this thread very interesting. When doing a recent re-restoration, I noticed that the inside panels and door frames in the body were assembled using nails! That is, steel nails were driven through at least two layers of steel to hold the body together, probably with an air-tool. Not bolts, not welding, but nails. Has anyone else seen this?
Jim
James:
Has anyone assembled a list of the abbreviations with the corresponding city? I wonder if they did the same thing for Canadian cars, which is what I have.
I believe my '26 to be early production; it has the simple back seat support 1 section of channel pictured above. I can't report on the back window area nor the header, as the cardboard is still in place there. I found (so far) no numbers on the cross sill under the driver's seat. The passenger door has upholstery around the window opening, but the driver's door has a metal garnish there. This is one piece that seems very odd--perhaps an early replacement? The family members who might remember such stuff are long gone. I only got the car because the only family member who was interested in it wanted to hot-rod it, and the oldest Uncle said, "NO WAY!" He knows me personally and knew I would never do that, so the car came to me.
T'
David D.
Craig (1927) and David (early 1926)
What are the door sills like on your cars?
Kelsey,
I don't know if Canadian cars were body-numbered the same as US cars. It would be interesting to know. A list of 2-letter abbreviations could be constructed from the list of assembly plants in the US in McCalley's book.
Jim
Jim,
I'll have to go up to the "storage garage" and check that out, also will look at the window "sills" to see which type they are.
David
Jim......here are pics of the window garnish and the sill. Both sides are the same (and I JUST noticed the missing screw.....not MY missing screw......the garnish).
I think when everyone knew the T days were numbered they used whatever was handy.
That happened a lot with the old tractor manufacturers.
It keeps life interesting figuring out the whys and hows.......
Craig,
Your 27 looks very interesting! Looks like original floorboards, with a provision for snapping down the carpet. Your door sills are exactly like mine. Is that original upholstery?
I would like to see more photos of this car. What is the carburetor? Is the body color originally black? Where was it assembled?
When I removed the dash for restoration, I noticed a few assembly errors underneath. I agree, the assembly plants saw the end coming, and they were using up whatever parts and paint were on hand.
I also agree with Mike Peterson - the screws that hold the door sells were most likely self-threading, or sheet metal screws. The unmolested holes in my car were perfect no. 21, which is the correct size for a 10-32 tap. All the other interior hardware is fastened with a 10-32, oval-head screw, but the sills are a special case of screw-into-sheet-metal.
Jim
James, I believe the car is totally unmolested.......except for the paint.
It may have been green........
I'll be happy to photograph anything you want to see.
Here are a few more photos that may (or may not) answer some of your questions.
Well, I made it to the Tudor today. Did some more cleaning of the front seat crossmember, and no signs of any numbers there. My car is, I believe 12,56X,XXX, so pretty early in '26 production run. It has the square end window sills, the sill plate is the long wrap-around zinc one with "square" ends. The back window is the metal type (lower pic that Andrew posted) and I THINK the solid windshield header (still covered in cardboard, but when rapped, it sounds like metal behind it all across the header.
Wish my car was as nice as Craig's. Decades of storage in a dirt-floor barn with rodents has pretty much decimated the upholstery, and anything else of cloth.
T'
David D.
David, mine isn't quite as nice as you think it is......but it sure is dandy driver!
Thanks to John Danuser I'm getting a really nice fender to replace this ugly thing.......
Great thread, with lots of good information.
For Andrew – I would think that in addition to USA Tudor variations you would want to capture Canadian variations since they may or may not be the same as the USA variations and may or may not have occurred around the same time, earlier or later. Again great information!
Minor correction. I’m 90% sure that most of the numbers stamped into the metal channels that hold up the front floorboards on the 1926-27 USA cars are the Assembly Plant numbers and NOT a body number. It indicates which Assembly Plant assembled the body to the chassis. For USA cars not all the assembly plants stamped all of the cars starting at the same time. And some plants may not have started stamping a code until the Model A Ford appeared. And if it is like the later Model A Ford Assembly Plant numbers they can be located on the channel in front of the front seats or on the sides of the car (still holding up the front floorboard). They can be stamped to be read from either direction and be anywhere in that area. Note for the Canadian and the Australian produced cars the Assembly Plant code/number for the 1926-27 cars was stamped just above the radiator rod on the engine side of the firewall. For English cars – I do not know where or if they stamped an assembly plant code. As Jim said, they often were the first and last letter of the city if it was a single word. But for cities with two words in the name they often used the first letter of each word (such as New Orleans – NO ). And apparently in some cases Ford also used a single letter for a location. For example the “H” that Ken mentioned most likely stands for Houston, Texas. Additionally we have some letters such as “CP” that I have not yet been able to figure out what it stands for. And for the two samples with “CP” they both have a very easy to read date also stamped with the body code. So some did contain a date while the Canadian and Australian Assembly Plant codes apparently did not include a date code. For additional information about the Assembly Plant codes as well as links to the already completed Model A Ford Assembly Plant codes please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111490.html
We have been working very slowly to take the excellent Assembly Plant code/number information from the Model A Fords and work backwards to add in the Model T information. We would welcome any inputs on that subject also.
For Body Number information – that usually refers to the body numbers the outside body suppliers put on their bodies so they could track how many bodies of what type they had supplied to Ford. A small exception to that was the Ford produced touring cars late 1915-1916 we have one or two samples where a Ford produced body had the word FORD in block letters and a number. In the case of the 1926-27 Tudor, Coupe, roadster, and touring the bodies it is my current understanding that they were produced by Ford and not produced by outside body suppliers. I do not recall about the 1926-27 Fordors. We know that the 1928-1931 Model A’s had some of their Fordor, Cabriolets, Truck Cabs, etc. produced by outside suppliers. [And even a few coupe bodies.] For information on where to look for body numbers on 1906-1923 open cars please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html and if you find any – please drop me a note. You can click on my name and my e-mail address is the third line down.]
Again, a great thread with lots of good information. And hopefully as additional information is added you will be able to document the approximate dates and/or locations certain items were used.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off.
Craig I also have 2 26-7 sedans, one (w/out any fenders) disassembled, one together minus front and left rear fenders, but I have NOS rear fenders for both and also NOS rears for my 26-7 touring that's partcilly disassembled. That's what you get after 60 yrs of auctions etc. collecting parts to sell, and keep for my projects, the front's can be bought, but no one makes the rears.
Fascinating.
I've also noticed a couple more differences in tudors, and I'm not sure they have been mentioned:
1) Early 26 had fabric frames around the door windows. These were changed to one-piece metal frames.
2) On the 27, the passenger seat is made with one leg offset. This causes the seat to lean to the left when it is folded up, and this gives the back seat passenger a little more room to gain access to the back.
The 1928 Model A had completely redesigned seats, and they were much cheaper to build than the Model T seats. In my 27, the rear cushion assembly is extremely heavy, with a steel frame and coils individually sewed into burlap cylinders. On the Model A, the rear cushion was a wire loop nailed to a wooden frame. It's much lighter. The elaborate steel bucket for the driver's seat was changed to just another passenger jump seat.
Craig,
Thanks for the photos. I believe it was originally green, and obviously the carburetor has been changed out. Stunningly good condition.
Jim
I'm not near either car right now, but my '26 touring has a firewall stamp indicating it was made in Montreal. I forget what the letters are that lead me to this conclusion.
My 26 Fordor firewall on the other hand has no stamped marks on it whatsoever.
Tom,
Your Canadian 1926 touring would have had an “M” if it was assembled in Montreal. For a Canadian 1926-27 (not a USA) the firewall would normally be stamped as follows:
F for Ford City -- Ford Canada's main plant
M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
W for Winnipeg, Manitoba
V for Vancouver, British Columbia
Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/196599.html?1299852394
The 1926-27 USA cars were NOT stamped on the firewall but on one of the metal channels that held up the front floorboards. Often the metal channel in front of the front seat(s) but not always and some did not have any stamping -- ever.
Please let us know which country produced your 1926 Fordor that does not have a stamp on the firewall -- is it a USA or a Canadian produced T? If it is a Canadian produced T – then it may indicate that not all Assembly Plants stamped the firewall at that time or they may have missed that car etc.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hi Hap.
I looked the car over tonite. It is indeed an M with four numbers stamped below it.
My Fordor is US made. I've sanded the firewall to bare metal and there is no trace of any stamping. The wood was replaced by the prior owner so there's no evidence there. I'll have to check the floorboard risers on the Fordor.
Tom
I want to take the floorboards out anyway to replace the band adjuster washers.
I'll take a look and hope I find a number.........
Thanks for all the contributions guys. Great stuff! I'm learning a lot about Tudors. My body is incomplete but has a recessed header, tapered end door pulls, one piece metal trim around the door windows, and wood frame around the rear window. There is no stamp on the firewall where most Australian 26-27 cars are stamped.
I have a subframe (from a different body) that is stamped on the exposed face under the left hand front seat (ie: not under the floorboards). Numbers are hard to read by torchlight so will have to check in daylight but its something like S?1413. The stamps are 9/16" high.
Here's the number stamped into the front cross-member under the driver's seat of my tudor:
LE25970-9
I think it was assembled in Louisville, KY, in 1927. The LE thus makes sense, but if there is a date encoded into the number, I'm not sure how. I think the plant was shut down as of July.
Theories?
Jim
I took the boards off today to change those notched washers and looked and LOOKED for a number on the cross-member and found nothing.......THEN it jumped out at me! If the numbers were any bigger they'd have bit me in the butt.......the characters are 3/8" in height.
So what do I have?
With the risk of stating the obvious.. HP may stand for Highland Park?
Craig,
I noticed something. Your body is painted green. The same paint seems to be on the nut holding the pin in the seat pivot. That implies originality. Was the nut painted along with the body?
Also, there is a flat-head screw showing for the back floorboard. Mine is held down by flat heads, but there is no captive nut to screw it into. There are square nuts underneath. (The Model A 1928 had 10-32 captive nuts for the floorboards.)
My seats aren't held on with bolts, but with pins. Hitch pins fit into holes drilled in the ends.
Jim
James, the bolts in the seat hinges are not original. They're actually more blue than green.
Cottered clevis pins would make more sense.
Earlier you mentioned those snap thingys for a carpet.
They have flat head wood screws holding them to the floor.
The angled passenger seat was a stroke of genius......
Sure makes getting in and out of the back seat easier!
Craig,
I was disappointed that the angled passenger seat and the full bucket for the driver were not carried over into the Model A. I have been impressed by the detailed engineering that went into the tudor and the coupe bodies for the Improved Car.
Good to know that the bolts on the seat hinges are not original. Legend has it that the only parts carried over from the Model T to the Model A were the pins that hold the seats. It's almost true.
Jim
James & Craig, Here is a link that I have saved in my bookmarks to a previous discussion on the Tudor seats. A lot of good photos etc of Tudor Seats.
Regards, John
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/188003.html?1296783363
Tom – thank you for looking – please let us know if you do or do not find anything on the sills/channels that hold up the floorboards.
Andrew – the 1926-27 USA Assembly Plant code/number can be seen without removing the floorboards. It is usually on to of one of the metal channels that hold up the front floorboards. The good news I have a good job. The bad news – we are working long hours this week so I do not have as much time to play as I would like to have. But from memory (not as good as it once was) I’m 85% sure that the closed Model Ts were imported and NOT assembled at the Ford Plant in Geelong Australia. [Someone please confirm I remembered that correctly or let us know I goofed]. If I remembered that correctly, then your Tudor “IF” it came from Ford Canada would have likely [but not all of them did] had a letter on the metal dash on the engine side above the hood rod. Please confirm that the body is a Canadian body (square drive screws used in some of the places) or let us know that you believe it is a USA or other produced body. “IF” it is a USA produced body a number on the metal channel that ran across in front of the front seats (holding up the back of the front floorboard) with the letter(s) “S?1413” it might have been produced at the Somerville, Mass Ford Assembly Plant. Cambridge (near by) closed and Somerville opened sometime in 1926 [ref: [caution -- not a website that I have used before but it looks promising -- http://fordmotorhistory.com/factories/cambridge/index.php . If anyone has additional dates on when the one closed and the other began production please let us know. ] According to Dave Sturges’ listing for the Model A Fords, SOMERVILLE, MASSACHUSETTS uses an “S” as well as sometimes S-S, SAXC, SAX and SSAX) ref: : http://www.mafca.com/data_assembly.html Note we cannot just use all the letters from Dave’s excellent research. For example “CR” stands for CHESTER, PENNSYLVANIA but Chester Pennsylvania never produced Model Ts, it was opened and began producing the Model A Fords. So we need to do some comparisons and find out when plants were opened and closed etc. But “IF” the body was produced in Canada – the “S?1413” does not line up with anything I currently remember seeing.
Jim – yes, the “LE” would stand for LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY. Do you have a reliable frame and engine number to give us a relative date on the car? In the case of the Model A Fords – Dave Sturges’ comments that “the month and year appear at the end of the number.” But that “MAY” apply only to the Model A’s and not the T’s. Or if you can provide the approximate date based on the engine / frame number we may be able to figure out how “if at all” the number includes a month and year.
Craig – Thank you so much for looking and sharing what you found! I suspect that Roger is probably correct that the “HP” stands for Highland Park. But I do not have “proof” of that just yet. I sent an e-mail to David Dare asking him to confirm that I had the correct information about his wife’s 1926 Tudor that has an HP2424 stamp. If it was originally purchased by a family that lived in Mt Clemens, Michigan, that town is only 30 miles (48 kilometers) from Dearborn, Michigan where the Highland Park factory was located. That is a very positive link to “HP” standing for Highland Park. But not enough “proof” for me to say “we know for sure.” I would like to find a few more examples of the HP and make sure we don’t run across one or two that were purchased new, have a known history, but had “HP” but were purchased far from Highland Park. (Ok – I’m a little slow on these things.) Original posting and photo located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/78349.html
Does anyone know where their copy of the magazine with the photo coverage of the 15,000,000 Model T is? If you have easy access to your copy, would you check to see if it does or does not have the HP stamped on one of the metal channels that are holding up the front floorboards? We clearly know that it was assembled at the Highland Park Plant.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hi Hap. Mine is definitely a Canadian body. It is right hand drive and uses Robertson screws throughout. It was rescued from a hot rodder here in Australia back in the 1970's. I'll check later but I'm pretty certain there is no number stamped on the firewall in the usual place. The subframe with the number “S?1413” is from a different body - not my Canadian RHD body. I do have the subframe from the Canadian body (in storage) - I'll check to see if it has a number.
Andrew
Craig,
David Dare confirmed that I had the correct article from the "Model T Times" Nov-Dec 1982 pages 3-7 that show the same car that now is his wife's 1926 Tudor. Which means we have one solid reference point that HP2424 did come from Highland Park. We still need additional reference points (for example was the HP2424 an Assembly Plant code/number for the body being assembled at Highland Park or the body being mated to the chassis at Highland Park etc. With one data point it is difficult to confirm a theory (guess).)
If others have any additional HP letters and numbers stamped on their car's sill that hold up the front floorboards, please let us know.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
EXCELLENT Hap!
So mine IS an old school Ford.......
While we are on this kick I HAVE to thank Russ Furstnow and John Danuser.
Russ was leaving on a 3 week outing and didn't want me waiting for my AC speedometer gear and it arrived Monday. The Tudor came with an AC speedometer that actually WORKS! I had a very unpleasant experience with an ebay AC $peedometer purcha$e so was pretty happy to see this one works.
John Danuser came through with this fender I badly need. His packaging was nothing less than exemplary!
Craig I'm happy UPS didn't bend it, or tear it up, its happened before
John......the way you had that thing boxed I think if they had thrown it from a airplane it would have survived!.......
The front fenders for my '16 DB came through the mails with some cardboard duct taped to them on both sides. They made it across the country just fine, but I had to go to the PO to pick them up. When I picked them up, I was asked, "We all are wondering, did you buy an art piece or car parts?" When I said 'car parts" they couldn't understand why I'd buy rusty stuff (the fenders are about as rusty as Craig's "new" fender).
T'
David D.