New ring and pinion gears thought...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: New ring and pinion gears thought...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 10:10 am:

In the process again of making a more quieter rear axle, setting up the mesh of the straight gears.



And began to think why do we still use old-fashion straight cut gears on our T's? Have had a new set on order for several weeks, the prices are always up on a new 3.63:1 set, now at $325.

For those $ wouldn't be easier or less cost anyway to make with helical gears, modern machinery could mill the tooth form, and perhaps the a better set of less noisy gears could be mfg for the T market place?

They did these back in the '20's....think a new gear set in modern helical tooth would sell to us T guys? I would buy a set!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 11:29 am:

I might be wrong here, having not tested it, but I think the helical gears would be quieter, and perhaps even stronger, but it would put an end force on the driveshaft and a sideways force on the ring gear. The bearings and thrust washers were designed for the straight cut gears.

There is a problem in changing anything on a car to something for which it was not designed. When you make one part "better", you cause an unforseen problem.

Just my 2C worth.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 11:51 am:

I have custom gears made for industry on a fairly regular basis.

The bad news is that unless your friend owned the machine shop, having an MTO (made-to-order) gear set made up would cost you twice or more what you're already paying for the standard gears.

Also, it takes special machinery to cut helical gears.

Here in Oregon there is maybe one or two large shops set up to even do them. Linn Gear company being the major player.

They won't sell direct if there is a distribution channel in your area, but they'll be happy to talk to you about them if you want.

Linn Gear isn't a small "Mom and Pop". They've been around since WWII and sell stock and custom product all over the world.

http://www.linngear.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 12:56 pm:

straight cut gears are much easier to make than helical, it takes special machines and lots of time.

i think twice the cost is a conservative estimate, i could see it easily going past 1k, however it is pretty neat that they made them back in the twenties.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

Dan you always order from the wrong place!?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 01:47 pm:

My question on those noisy straight-cut gears: Can you hear them over all the other Model T noise?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

Nice contact Dan, do they look as good on the backside when reversing the direction of the gears?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

My 1914 Hudson has spiral bevel gears in the rear end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 05:58 pm:

Richard

The contact was about the same, but when back under the T, the scream was horrible!

Not sure what is cause, clearance was .012. with a slightly sanded down bronze washer.

Took it back apart and saw tiny, ballpoint pen size marks on the ring gear bolts. :-(

The pinion gear was hitting, this ring gear is one of the ones with the bolt holes in the root of the gear teeth.



No sure all the scream was from the gear/bolt end contact, but maybe.

So ground off the tips on the pinion gear of the leading teeth with the bench grinder. Tested and looked carefully to be sure the pinion wouldn't hit the ring gear bolts. Replaced the bronze washer with a new one, left it unsanded, measured about .203 if I remember. Then redid the clearance, set it at .006-.008

So, will put it back up under the T, just on jack stands, not shackled up yet to the spring, and test run-in and see if it is more quiet....hope so...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 09:02 pm:

I'll venture a guess the axle housings are not straight. Had much the same happen to me one time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

.008 is too tight.
It might throw teeth at high speed. Much better at .015 to .020.

When doing a rear end one should bolt the two halves together and look through it to see if everything lines up.
I use Four old roller bearings in the proper places and put a pipe through the rear end to seef the is any binding at the bearings.
I have had extremely good luck with rear ends I have overhauled.
I contribute it to lots of ring/pinion clearance and my good looks.
Maybe I should add that a parts guy in Corona gave me a tip about the clearance.
I forget his name but his initials are Glen Chaffin.
Whenever I do rear ends on modern vehicles I set them to the maximum clearance if they give a minimum and maximum. Always had good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 09:57 am:

Dan: That crank looks a lot like a Chevy crank. Could those be Chevy gears? Some how made to fit a T? Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

I'll say it for the tenth time, at least. Gear clearance, or backlash, is not as critical as a gearset running smoothly with one another. Way too much emphasis is placed on backlash! You can easily set up two gears with ideal backlash and still have a noisy gearset. Clearance will take care of itself once the gears are meshing smoothly, with no pulses or binding. Turn the pinion by hand as it meshes with the ring gear and feel for any indication of "pulsing" or binding as each tooth comes into and out of mesh. Ideally, you should not feel any such indication, just smooth rolling. Bluing the gear teeth is a good way to determine where the problem lies. Make small adjustments to correct the issue, then try it again. Better? Worse? Keep correcting and retrying. A straight cut bevel gear does not have to be noisy. A spiral bevel would be inherently quieter but even it needs to be set up very accurately, (perhaps even more so), or it too will not run correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Original NOS set of spiral gears for a T. Same as Chevrolet 490 except machined for T driveshaft. You might explore whether there are repro Chev sets that you could modify. I would expect it is the other way, Chev guys do the modification to use T gears!
a
b


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 02:43 pm:

Having bought custom gears of the spiral type (actually these were Hypoid where the pinion is situated below the center line of the ring gear) I can report the set was in the $1400 range in 1994. These were for my '30 Packard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 03:56 pm:

Aaron, I agree about leaving plenty of gear lash, only I thought the guy from Corona recommends either 6 or 10 thou lash, depending on which version of the Ruckstell book you buy. My quietest RE came from using NOS stock Ford gears and 15 thou lash. Made me a believer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 01:10 am:

Aaron, I have known you for at least a few years. Definitely, you have both good advice and good looks!
If you have a noisy rear end, you do want to go through it and make sure everything is good, straight, and lined up correctly. Do it for safety as some noise problems can result in future catastrophic failure.
Sometimes, everything can check out good, and the result can still be noisy. Usually, that is the result of mismatched gears. Actually quite harmless (usually). Usually, they will eventually wear a little and match themselves. If you can't take the noise, believe it or not, banana peals may be a good interim solution. I have never done it, but I have talked to a few people I respected a lot that have. And if you know everything is good and safe, yet are looking at another major tear down for another hopefully random set of gears? What have you got to lose?
(Awaiting negative feedback for that last statement.) (It's okay, I can take it all in fun.)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 01:27 am:

Dan,
Looks like you had the same problem as I with the pinon teeth hitting the ring gear bolts. You also came up with the same solution.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/204166.html?1302413413

Jim


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