Increase power Dyno report.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Increase power Dyno report.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 11:45 am:

A couple of years back, we decided to test a Model T engine on a Dyno. We had an engine and we had a shop that could test. This required building a frame and making an adapter to mount the engine to the Dyno so life really looked good and we gathered up all of the things we wanted to test, heads, cams, manifolds and such that are available from our vendors. The results were less than satisfactory as the Dyno would not really read and provide the information needed to determine any changes that we had made.

As it turns out we acquired a Taylor water brake and decided to build our own. How hard could that be?

Turns out it was hard, after building the stand and mounting up the Dyno we tested it with a set of electronic scales and captured RPM from a timing light tachometer to prove that we could at least read torque and RPM values in the range we needed to be. We concluded that we had a solid base Dyno platform and moved on to find the needed software to capture, analyze and report the test runs.

We started out with a software package that included the necessary hardware to capture the data. It was not expensive but had limits. One of the limits was it would not consider and correct the information to “A perfect day” or an SAE standard. The below link gives general look at the importance of correcting. http://performancetrends.com/blog/?p=109

Correction factor formulas were used with a spread sheet, so it required moving the data from one place to another. We still had problems with repeating runs of the base test engine, sometimes we would be less than 2% and other time greater than 7% differences.

A lot was learned, while we could correct for weather conditions we knew we had to get the percent of change variables under control because many of the things we wished to test may not produce a measurable increase in power. Many other factors account for differences in test results, engine water, oil temperature, etc has a major impact on power, remember the old saying “heat robs horse power” so we had to establish a test procedure that would always have the engine in the same condition. Additional motoring devices were acquired to keep us running tests in the range needed for repeatability.

After having issues with the original Dyno software/hardware equipment, returning it three time to the vendor we threw it away and purchased a more expensive Data acquisition box, different hardware to gather RPM and wrote our own program for corrected reports and graphs.

So we wanted to do some Dyno testing on a Model T engine, “HOW HARD CAN THAT BE”...??
I wanted to share the attach JPG. Would you like an increase in power and not spend a penny. Remove the hot air pipe, it is that simple.

We should get the all information on a web site in the near future for all to review.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 12:01 pm:

Mike:

thanks for the info. I only have seen about one model T in this area that had a hot air pipe and it didn't run worth a darn. I have never used one, don't know what they are for. I read all the time on the forum about icing of the intake but have NEVER seen it on any car. I can not think that Colorado is that much different.
I will get a lot of opposite opinions but use them if you want or think you need them

By the way I have driven my Ts a lot of time at sea level including Mississippi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

ADDENDUM: I not only have driven my Ts at sea level but am often at 13,000 to 14,000 feet and so are my friends and NO ONE has ever iced up that I know of. What am I missing?????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 12:23 pm:

Mike Thanks,

I built my T I've never ran a hot air pipe before but my Dad talked me into putting one on. I can tell a noticeable difference with it, I first drove the car while fitting body and fenders all in primer, before I painted the car we installed the hot air pipe and tied up some last min lose ends, then off to paint when I got the car back I noticed the snappy throttle response was gone.... I think I'll be removing a hot air pipe soon after looking at your data. No I know where my extra HP went now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

Removing the hot air pipe is an easy one, you don't really need a dyno to tell the car runs much better under any circumstances from sea level to 10,000 feet, and on any tempreature with any humidity level.

The hot air pipe was necessary back in the days when gasoline quality was crappy and hard to vaporize in a cold Michigan winter situation. Nowdays, we don't have that problem and the hot air pipes I own remain in a box on the shelf.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 01:36 pm:

Anybody who has flown a light plane should know carb heat robs power. Hot air is less dense. It's like running your car at higher elevation, with the possible additional restriction of air flow, especially at higher rpm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 04:06 pm:

So Ralph, are you saying that hot air is not needed on an airplane either? BTW, I have had my T for 7 years. I live south of Chicago. I have had three instances where the carb has iced to the point of quitting. As soon as the ice thawed, it ran fine. Of course 3 times in 7 years is not very much considering that I drive the car at least 3 times a week weather permitting. All three times were close to 90 degrees and high humidity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

Doug, carb heat is controlled by a push/pull control on the panel of a carbureted airplane. It's used at low power settings for descent and landing to avoid carb icing. There is a noticeable power loss when carb heat is applied.

Carb icing is transient in a car, due to the nearly constantly varying conditions.

Remember EGR, Exhaust Gas Recirculation, in your modern? It applies hot exhaust gas into the intake at partial throttle, and it actually reduces combustion temperature, to reduce NOx emissions. It also reduces carb icing.

A curiosity of air is its trait of cooling when its density is reduced, and heating when compressed. OTOH, heated air is less dense, meaning less power at WOT.

Common carburetors have a venturi whose purpose is to create an area of low pressure (vacuum), into which fuel is sucked and vaporized. . Even at WOT (wide open throttle), there has to be some vacuum in the carb for it to work. . At partial throttle, this pressure drop can cause a temperature drop of up to 70 degrees F, depending on carburetor design, and other factors. . The actual drop in any carb will vary, depending on temperature and humidity of the incoming air, as well as characteristics of the fuel itself.

Carb ice becomes a nuisance when it builds up just downstream of the venturi, and changes the shape of the venturi to something much less aerodynamic. . At that point, the sucking of fuel becomes inefficient, and the engine starves for fuel, and starts running rough.

In light aircraft, the FAA teaches that the ideal conditions for carb icing are high humidity and about 60 degrees F, at partial throttle. . They teach you to habitually apply carb heat when reducing power to descend.

Thanks, Mike, for the pioneering work. It's tough getting objective, repeatable data.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

When I had the icing problem it was a back road with no traffic running at a constant speed. I also remember many years ago one car in particular, was a 68 Plymouth 318 two barrel that had an idling problem. We actually saw the throttle plates freeze over while idling. They would freeze and thaw while we sat and watched. It turned out to be a blocked manifold heat crossover. We cleaned it out and the problem went away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

Mike,
Thanks for the info. I would love to see more photos of your setup.

I also look forward to other test you perform. It seems like Ethanol is a hot topic. Maybe you could compare E10 and E0.

In regard to the heat pipe: I had an old engine. I got a heat pipe and put it on. I didn't realize that was the issue, but noticed a major drop in power. I decided to rebuild. Then I read a lot about the heat pipe and regretted not taking it off before I did the rebuild. For as little driving as I do, I think I could have waited.

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 10:25 pm:

WOW!

I've generally run hot air pipes on my Ts... I've had them around, they were original equipment, and I often drive in winter. Never really gave them much thought.

After reading Mike's post this morning, I decided to test my '26 Touring with and without the pipe. My top speed (per GPS, open road 2-way average) increased from 46 mph to 52 mph and, not surprisingly, the car seemed somewhat peppier up hills.

I'm sold. Thanks, Mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

The worst carb ice I ever encountered was in my Cessna 170 between the Kenai peninsula and Kodiak I.
50 miles of ocean (couple small islands in the middle).
I always pull the carb heat on by habit.
When I did it near those islands the damn thing almost died from melting ice.
I crapped my pants and left the carb heat part way on for awhile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 11:44 pm:

Mike,
I like your ability to test the engine output power but your with and without hot air pipe comparison is missing some important information. Every pilot knows that carb heat is not needed under full load and certain weather conditions. If carb heat is needed or not is controlled by humidity, air temperature and engine load. The good thing about a car is that it will not fall out of the sky if you error on the side of no heat when needed.

To be fair a test should be preformed at about 50F and 80 to 100% humidity and at a low load on the engine. In that case the engine without carb heat could very well ice up and die when the engine with a heat pipe would merrily putt along.

Of course in a ideal world, the carb heat on a Model T would be controlled by a controller inside the car. It would be just like an airplane and when heat is not needed you could still get the maximum power. With all the accessories for Model T's I would think someone sold some kind of control in the day.

Here is the chart:



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 01:40 am:

Mike,
Thank you for providing your Dyno test data. Look forward to you posting more data as it becomes available. A good friend of mine built his own Dyno using a large truck rear end/brakes for load. He has a load cell and data logger. His Dyno tests torque/HP at the rear wheels.
He now has a 15 T roadster and we have talked about modifing his Dyno to test our old cars.
He's an Electrical Engineer and likes playing with engine modifications.....has even fuel injected his lawn mower engine.
I read the test data "Model T Cam Project" provided by the Tulsa group which you were very involved in before purchasing a Stipe 280 cam.
I am very happy with the cam and have you and your group to thank for the test data and guidance that was provided.

Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 07:04 am:

Anyone who has driven a Model T very long knows the threat of carb icing is non existent. Forget about it.

He who dreams of being a pilot often wakes up with his joy stick in hand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lance Sorenson, Minnesota on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 08:55 am:

Is there any difference in the aluminum intake and the cast iron intake, as far as icing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 10:02 am:

Nope. Neither one has any propensity to ice under any conditions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 10:25 am:

Lance Sorenson:

I have both aluminum and iron intakes and I find no difference as far as icing.

Chris Bamford:

I drive my Ts EVERY day in the winter. While our climate here in Berthoud is very mild (average winter temperature is 45%) it can occasionally get cold. Icing for me just does NOT HAPPEN. And I just don't know of anyone that has it happen. So come out to Colorado and enjoy Hot Air Pipe free driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 10:25 am:

I think people put on heaters because #1 always runs too cold and fouls the plug. The fix for that is a thermostat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 11:14 am:

Ice on the surface of the intake manifold doesn't affect performance. The important icing is inside the carb, inside and just after the venturi, in which the air is expanded, and cools. That temporarily ruins the aerodynamics of the venturi, whose purpose is to draw fuel into the air stream in the desired proportion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Royce,
Doug Money reported above, "I have had three instances where the carb has iced to the point of quitting." So it can happen, just not that common.

I wonder if there is any difference in fuel economy with a heat pipe? Many have reported less plug fouling with a heat pipe.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, July 09, 2012 - 01:32 pm:

How would one know if the engine was "to the point of quitting"? In other words, nothing happened. X ray vision? How would you even know there was ice if it never quit?

As for fouling plugs the hot air pipe couldn't help me there either. Fouled plugs only happen as a side effect of poor tune up, or too rich carb adjustment, or other error on the part of the other systems of the car or the operator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 12:50 am:

Royce, to me it was pretty clear that it quit. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:07 am:

David Stroud:

David are you sure that it was icing that stopped you. I have driven a lot of miles in the mountains with a lot of other Ters that have never had icing. I wagon master on the largest national tour that the MTFCA ever had and no one had icing that I knew of. Maybe you are right and I will be down tomorrow with icing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:26 am:

Not me Dave, I was referring to Doug Money's post above. I have seen icing on the outside of the carb here in N.W. MO. though in the past. It was just on the outside of the carb body, but it happened on a very short trip. Stands to reason that if the conditions are right, it could ice up to where the car wouldn't run, such as Jim posted. Apparently, it does happen, even though some won't admit it. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:32 am:

Royce,
If the conditions are right and your car starts running like crap and there is a bunch of ice and frost covering the out side of the carburetor you would have a good clue that you have icing problem. Since the source of "cold" is inside the carburetor, if you have ice on the outside, there is a good chance there is more on the inside.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 02:05 am:

I think Royce is right. There must be something wrong somewhere else in the system of the car. James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 02:23 am:

I've had this happen to me on 2 different engines. It ended being ignition problems on both. James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 07:54 am:

I'm still pretty new to T's, so this whole idea of icing is completely foreign to me. My speedster has a hot air pipe, which after reading this thread I removed. I definitely noticed more response from the carb (the speedster is so light that a little more HP makes a big difference). The one thing I didn't anticipate was I had to play with my air/fuel mixture a little bit to get as happy and smooth as when the hot air pipe was still on.

I also noticed lots of condensation on the air intake manifold. I put my hand on it and sure enough the back side of carb and most of the manifold were pretty cool to the touch. I can see how if conditions are just right one could end up getting ice.

My question is, if I'm getting condensation on the OUTside of the manifold, what's happening on the INside? Lol, it seems like a poor mans water injection kit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 09:09 am:

The amount water that is in the air is not changing. A venturi cools the air as velocity decreases. When the air is compressed in the cylinder the temperature increases. Net is zero, your Model T will run at any altitude or temperature without any hot air pipe. Stop worrying about it.

Water injection will reduce horsepower in a naturally aspirated engine, and that is easily proven on a dyno.

The so called "MMO kits" also reduce power and mileage. Another bunch of horse hockey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 12:08 pm:

T carbs were designed in the black powder days.
I wonder how a good carb like a Mikuni with seven levels of atomization and adjustable venturi would work on a T. They sure work on other engines and if you could set them up right they are almost a bolt on.
Not vintage, but the NH could go in a box for the next owner if thats his choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 01:14 pm:

No doubt a Model T would run great with a modern carburetor. A Mikuni or similar motorcycle carb (or carbs) would be a huge increase in power. No doubt it would make more power. You don't need a dyno to figure that out.

However, the engine makes enough power in stock condition to exceed the capabilities of the stock suspension and brakes. What's the point? Why would I want a new carburetor? What's the challenge in buying a brand new part and hanging it on the engine? Is it to see who can flip their T first?

Why not just buy a new Toyota? Then remove the front brakes, air conditioning, safety glass, and install wooden wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 02:20 pm:

On the recent first 2 days of the Heartland of America tour, we had heat and 40mph winds. Unfortunately, I've never taken the heater pipe off my T, even though I did well on the Dyno at last year's tour. A 20 horsepower car with a 40 mph headwind, hills to climb, and 4 passengers could use a few more horsepower! I don't think we got to anywhere near dangerous speeds on some of those roads. Just like a modern car with hundreds of horsepower, having the power when you need it doesn't mean you have to use it when you don't need it. I've got a few motorcycle carbs. Maybe someday I'll rig one up and try it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 02:33 pm:

HP is safety in my book. We use aftermarket brakes, glass, oiling, and other parts for safety and longevity.

Whats the matter with an aftermarket carb if you are not hashing up vintage parts and all can be put back to vintage?

Thank God we have not given up free thought yet in America-----I am concerned about the end of the year though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 02:33 pm:

The immediate advantage of a carb better than the original puddle carb is fuel economy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 03:29 pm:

I've been running a Solex from a 40 horse bug for 10 yrs on a hashed up vaporizer.
I just tried it to see if I could make it work and still running it.
20 to 30% better mileage.
Not much more power except more top end.
Bad thing is electric fuel pump but I drive it a lot yr round and it's never quit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 03:47 pm:

Are we looking for power or economy?

Racers want cool dense fuel and cool dense air which they draw from outside the car where it is coolest. They don't care about economy or emissions, and their mixture is slightly rich for power.

Street cars want economy, driveability, and low emissions and their mixture tends to be on the lean side.

The hot air pipe on a T is a poor attempt to vaporize the too-cool fuel by heating the air it will mix with. This results in less dense air (less oxygen) being mixed with cool dense fuel so we then try and lean out the fuel to compensate. It is better to heat the air/fuel mix together in the manifold, and Stromberg, Anco, and many others realized this and introduced several versions of manifold heating strategies. The fuel does need to be vaporized for best economy, power, and emissions.

During the 70's and 80's modern cars had a thermostatically operated door in the air cleaner snorkel which drew hot air from the exhaust manifold. This aided in warm-up, but was mainly to reduce cold start emissions. After the engine warmed up, the door would close and allow cooler air to be drawn through the snorkel, but there has been an exhaust passage or heat riser passage through the intake manifold under the base of the carb on all modern engines since the late forties to aid in vaporization. Late model fuel injected engines do not heat the air fuel mix since the fuel is sprayed (vaporized) directly into the air stream as it enters the cylinder. Plastic manifolds are used to keep the air charge as cool and dense as possible. More oxygen, better, cleaner, hotter, burn.

Removing the hot air pipe from a T gives the cool dense air, but the cold frosty manifold does not aid in vaporization. Raw fuel is wasted fuel (it will not burn) and plugs can be fouled. Liquid gasoline does not burn since there is no oxygen, only the vapor once it mixes with air will burn, and cold gasoline does not vaporize readily. That is why we warm it up. When we choke a cold engine it is not because we need more fuel to start it, it is because there is not enough vapor to support combustion. Therefore we draw in a larger puddle of liquid just to get more volume and more vapor.

The debate will go on and on, I'm sure, but what is needed is cool incoming air and a warm intake manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 03:54 pm:

The good thing with the electric pump is when you shut your engine down fuel stops.

Two times my NH dumped fuel in my catch pan when I did not shut down the fuel after a short run and the float leaked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

I run twin Kohler carburetors, a high compression head and a crankshaft that adds a 1/2 inch to the stroke with full pressure oiling to the bearings. I use a hot air pipe on each carburetor. The car is started on gasoline and then switched to recycled cooking oil. It develops 65 horsepower and will run 70 plus miles per hour. I have 48 Chevrolet drum brakes on all four wheels. On the rear I have 600-20 TT tires and wheels with weights from a Farmall tractor for added traction. Ignition system is stock Model T. The body is a '14 Touring that has been extended so it will carry 6 people easily. It has been used for sightseeing charters in the Pineywoods of East Texas for the last few years.

I hope you have enjoyed reading this ridiculous tale as I have had a little fun composing it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - 05:35 pm:

Any way you look at it vaporizing fuel is the best. Most motorcycles use rubber hose from the carb a few inches to a short manifold into the combustion chamber.
An enrichening device is sometimes used on a cold engine for starting.
The throttle cut away, needle jet, jet needle, main jet, pilot jet all have an effect on different speeds to accomplish the task along with the adjustable venturi. Four stroke Mikuni's use a different bleeder valve then two stroke.
Adjusting the carb is the problem, mounting it is easy. Once you know what to change the carb could be ordered that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 12:16 pm:

I think Stromberg might have been on the right track. They heated both the inlet and the manifold.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 06:04 pm:

Stromberg was doing the same thing as Ford, trying to compensate for crappy 1920's gas that would not vaporize. Thankfully all that baloney is unnecessary today.

I have thousands of miles on a Stromberg OF like the one in that drawing. It does not have any tendancy to develop carb icing. It always runs great without any of the unneeeded inlet heat devices you see in the pictures.

If you want the ultimate Model T era aftermarket side draft carburetor it is the Stromberg OF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 07:33 pm:

The OF is great for fuel economy. The Schebler FA or larger Stromberg gives more power at high rpm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 07:40 pm:

I love this place. A guy builds a dyno, posts a message that describes some of the trials and tribulations that he went though, and innocently mentions just one bit of data that he collected. Buried in the midst of apparently many tests of different configurations, they noticed that the hot air pipe reduces HP under normal conditions.

The hard work that was done on the dyno quickly fell to the wayside, and we're suddenly discussing what it would take to install Yamaha motorcycle carbs on a T...

Hey Mike.
Congrats on getting the dyno working. I'm looking forward to the data that you collected on other components. I thought that the hot air pipe info was curious, but I've never run one nor did I ever plan on running one. It sounds like you did a lot of work that will be much more helpful to a wider group of owners here. I love it when someone (like yourself) makes the commitment to validate info that the rest of us guess about.

Thanks for all of your hard work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 07:42 pm:

How much more power or rpm can a bigger
carb get out of a stock high head T engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 07:50 pm:

The dyno is a very valuable entity to this group. Thank you, Mike, for your work. Based on some of the previous information on testing a number of cars in Rochester, it appears that the listed "20 horsepower" engine is just that, engine horsepower not rear wheel horsepower. I'd be interested in seeing how much loss there is with different oils in the diffy, Ruckstell vs standard, perhaps even different types of bands. The list is endless. You may have created more work than you wanted, but thanks again.
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 07:53 pm:

I don't know the answer to your question, Eric. My situation was a shaved low head over an A crank, so a higher top end was desirable for cruising above 55. The FA was better than the OF. I had 4-wheel brakes to stop it, of course.



The Fronty begs for more breathing, too. With an NH, it would top out at 18 mph in low, while the 5H Winfield let it run out to 28.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 12:56 am:

Many thanks to the Tulsa boys, I use tapes from time to time to refresh my memory they have made and listen closely to what ever is posted by them.
Thanks again! Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 01:00 am:

Hi Ricks,

That makes more sense. A bigger carb can really help after a number of other modifications, much of what is in your pics is visibly different than the 75 year old parts under my hood. Without your other performance mods, I'm guessing that the FA wouldn't perform much different than a stock carb. I've seen cars from the '60s degrade their performance with carbs that were too big, not enough vacuum to run right.

It's my understanding that the OF is actually a bolt on improvement for stock and nearly stock engines. These Strombergs were designed for better mixture control, which can deliver better mileage and smoother running. More power or higher RPM would come from other changes, i.e. more compression or displacement, balancing, reduced back pressure, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 08:08 am:

At the risk of opening Pandora Box, when I was in college, a Senior class lab project including the professor was to determine the efficiency of burn on a Model T engine.

Been 40 or so years but the number that my brain recalls is like 23% under perfect set normal conditions. That said and reading the swings and roundabouts here, ANYTHING that would allow more air draw/less restriction through to the intake valves, or allow for faster vaporization would make the burn efficiency go ‘up’ to some point where it would hit a critical ‘all I can give’ due to other hard limitations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 08:50 am:

George, around 40 years ago Smokey Yunick was complaining that we put in 2500HP of gasoline to get 500HP out. That kind of equates to your numbers in the low 20s.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:58 am:

In my motorcycle days there was one guy I could not equal. He was a motorcycle mechanic and his bike simply had more HP.

After I fixed his kitchen and shop problems he showed me the improvement. They were two cycle bikes so fuel mix came to the crankcase.

Holes were drilled through the piston webs to atomize better before going through the transfer ports.

The HP increase was shocking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 01:40 pm:

Our 1913 Model 40-50 Cadillac had a complicated carburetor with a heated water jacket cast right into the carburetor. The inlet and outlet was controlled by two small valves to control water flow. It also had an alternate air door valve on the side to lean it out or richen it up as well as an adjustable jet and an adjustable lever for choke from the driver's seat. As I recall the owners manual told how to adjust the water valve in different seasons. On the other hand our 1912 Buick Model 36 Roadster had no heating system and it made ice all of the time when the weather was warmer and the air full of moisture.

When I learned to fly I was taught by a B17 driver and he told that the worst conditions were on a 90 to 100 degree humid day. The air temperature dropped 70 degrees inside of the carburetor and it made ice in there at 20 to 30 degrees. At 120 degrees the temperature only dropped to 50 degrees and you don't make ice at 50 degrees.

My thinking is that the heater stove goes on easily and comes off the same way. Put it under the back seat and use it when necessary.


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