Front axle differences

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Front axle differences
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

What are the differences in the front axle beams? I read in the encyclopedia that around 1920 the top of the beam is straight between the perch bosses, and the earlier ones have a slight curve (dip) across that span. The "improved" models ('26 - ''27) have a different forging. Were there any other changes in the beam itself? Was there a change when the wishbone went from over to under mounting?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 03:20 pm:

Eric

Bruce's expanded CD Ecycl lists some of the axle change notices researched by Trent, didn't see where any significant change in the cross-section of the beam.
3-'20 "Ford" script added
5-'20 AA mat'l changed to AAX many axles have this AAX marking.
8-'20 new design as more straight section.
8-26 the notable 'swoop' axle with the 1" sweep added that curved the axle down. And this later axle has more beef at the lower yoke with a rectangular look.


Late '26-'27 "Swoop" front axle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

Ok. So there are only three different front axle beams (excluding forging marks). Early with upper curve and straight bottom, mid style with straight top and bottom, and late with curved top and bottom. And wishbone mounting position is not reflected in the axle forging.

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 04:42 pm:

Eric

Ain't expert on axles, just what I read by others. The early one-piece spindle axles are different, even in those early years.

Would think what you posted is about right, but maybe some many subtle differences between the different mfg of the Ford front axle.

Markings on the axles shed some info, up to 1914 for example the mfg mark was DB (Dodge Bros) and then before and after '15-'17 were CH (Cleaveland Hardware), TW (Tansue Williams) and H (Herebrand).

Many axles '19-'25 are date marked month/day/year. When Ford made there own axles, these didn't have the T202 part # on them. The later '26-'27 usually aren't dated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 08:23 pm:

Dan,

Minor comment, I'm 90% sure that the date (s) found on the forged front axles is commonly the date of the forging die. That is normally not the date the axle was produced (unless it just happened to be made the first day the die was made). That is why you can have one date on the front of the axle and a different date on the back side of the same axle. It can help in dating the axle, as the axle normally would have been made sometime after the latest date on forged into the axle (unless someone put the wrong date in the surface of the die by mistake). But the axle could be a little or a lot later than the date of the forging die.

I always appreciate your photos. Speaking of which, I looked through a bunch of my photos and even looked on e-bay but I did not really see any photos that would do a good job of illustrating the 1911-1919 or the 1921 - 25 front axles. If someone has a photo showing those axles, that would be great. Many of the photos were nice photos but had shadows, license plates, etc. that hid what we wanted to show. Most were at an angle to show off the car and not the front axle. One of them had an almost perfectly flat top showing between the spring perches – but it was an optical illusion as the camera angle caught the tie rod (spindle connecting rod part # 2717) behind the axle and the light & shadow made it hard to see the tie rod but the straight surface was easy to spot.

Below are illustrations from the price list of parts (courtesy of Bruce’s “Comprehensive Encyclopedia” except for the last illustration of the English Drop Frame Axle which came from a previous posting).



Approximate dates used top to bottom: 1909-early 1911 one piece spindle, then remainder of 1911 to 1920ish the 1920ish to 1925ish. For the 1926ish -27 one see Dan’s photo above. And the bottom one is the drop frame which was an English offering starting in early 1924 and discontinued for passenger car production Oct 1925 when the 1926 model year cars began production in England. (ref Page 154 "The English Model T Ford" book.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

Hap that info could be correct and if so, they would have had a new die for my front axle. My car is Sept 1921 and the axle is 9-19-21 both sides. The axle with the 2717 above it look a lot like my 21.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

Mark,

We are always looking for additional information and leads for information. We know (unless they put the wrong date on the dies) that since your front axle has the forged in dates of 9-19-21 it would have been forged sometime on or most likely after that date. When/if you have a chance please send me and/or post a photo of the front axle showing the profile. That should give us a good data point for that style axle. Either one of the last of the more curved style or one of the early flatter style front axles.

In the case of the engine block castings both the two door and the one piece door valve cover engines were produced starting at Highland Park on 1 Nov 1921 and continuing until Apr 3, 1922 when all the engines assembled at Highland Park were used only the one piece valve cover. Note one or more of the branch assembly plants would have probably continued to build up engines using the previously shipped two valve cover style blocks for a little longer. So in that case there was at least 5 months of overlap when both styles of engine blocks were produced.

You mentioned your car is a Sep 1921. Did you base that date off of the engine serial number by comparing that to the listing Bruce McCalley had compiled using the engine production logs? Or did you base that date on something else such as the original Bill of Sale etc.?

Note Bruce mentioned that dating the car by the serial number has some limitations (room for error/variation) for example:

For the engine numbers that were sent to be stamped onto an engine that was assembled in another location -- it could be days or even weeks later. In his CD and on page 523 of his book Bruce stated, "Blocks of engine numbers and "knocked down" engine continued to be shipped to Long Island and to other assembly plants. The serial numbers are listed in the records but are not shown her after December [1919], for they serve little purpose other than being of some interest. The production figures shown from here on are for Highland Park only. The differences between the serial numbers and the production numbers are due to the shipment to the branches.”

Also, some engines were occasionally stock piled for example: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm
See Mar 18, 1924 Letter from Chicago Branch: "We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

Again thank you for posting the information. Hopefully that along with additional information will allow us to better determine how long the overlap was when both the 1911-1920ish style and the follow on 1920ish – 1925ish front axle style was used. For example does anyone have the 1920ish-1925ish front axle and can provide us a date for the casting dies that were used?

Thank you so much for your help and support.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 08:48 pm:

Hap I just did a quick check with the online serial number list. My car would have been assembled and sold in Portland Oregon and has the two door side cover. Cast date on block looks to be 8/26/21 Serial No 5441**


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 08:50 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 09:12 pm:

Ok, one in ten guesses as to what the missing number is in Marks serial #, first 4 on his post, last 2 on the first photo, sorry no prizes!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 11:11 pm:

5441***, I forgot an * anyway. :-) Insert red face here! Can you see the JB Weld? I have been out getting the car ready for a 100+ mile round trip tour.


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