ID a car and year?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: ID a car and year?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Bishop, San Diego on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 02:52 pm:

I was given these photos by a friend who's father owned this car, but doesn't know what it is. Can you help me ID the car and year (I think I know, but the limits of my knowledge can be dangerous <g>)? Thank you for your help.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 03:13 pm:

1919-23 Model T Centerdoor Sedan. Is there sheet metal covering the window and door sills? In that case it's a 1922-23.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Bishop, San Diego on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 07:41 pm:

Thanks Roger. I was close, but glad I checked with you. Thanks again for your help,
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

Bob,

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF) I believe it is a 1922- mid-1923 Centerdoor Sedan (note Ford only called them Sedans and not a Centerdoors).

Rationale: If you zoom in I believe you can see the lever action window holders on the front quarter windows and door windows. That was introduced sometime during 1922. Ref: Bruce McCalley “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” page 48 of the Centerdoor section also page 288 of his out of print book “Model T Ford.” [Assumes parts came with the car originally and they were not upgraded later by an owner etc.]



Roger -- I always enjoy your thoughtful posts. You are correct the demountables and lack of oil side lamps would mark it as a 1919 or later car. And your upper limits are also accurate. Because the wood framed windows were originally painted it can be very difficult to tell sometimes if they are or are not metal clad like the later 1922-23. Note some of the earlier 1922s still had the old style wood framed windows and window lifts – Again ref Bruce’s CD and book page 291 where an early Feb 1922 Centerdoor still has those older features.

Other areas to help date:

The front engine mount/frame to front spring bracket is the 1921 and later style (I cannot see if it is the later style that added the threaded hole to quiet the splash apron rattle).

Note if the door handle was showing that would also be a helpful item as they changed from the bail style to the “T” style in late 1921 and then to the “L” type about 1922 ref page 288 also the CD.

Bob – if you do a high resolution scan of the photo that shows the crank handle and adjust the contrast a little there is a good chance you will see the “rolled sleeve” style crank handle that was also introduced about 1922. Or if you send me a high resolution scan I will gladly see if I can tell which type of crank handle it has. For that matter a higher resolution scan say 300 x 300 dpi would also let us tell more details about the lever latches and confirm that is what they really are – it looks that was to me – but it would confirm that (or correct it).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

"Again ref Bruce’s CD and book page 291 where an early Feb 1922 Centerdoor still has those older features."

Hap -- Did you mean to say, "...where an early Feb Sedan still has those older features"? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 10:38 pm:

Yeah.......I still need of those window lifter brackets for my '25 Fordor......I have the rods.......no brackets....... :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:06 am:

Mike,

Yes, in this case that is what I meant to say. But I never was a great student in English class. I was trying to summarize Bruce’s comment from page 291 of his out of print book and page 49 of his CD which says:

“David Simmering’s 1922 Sedan, a classic example of why one can’t absolutely define a certain year Ford. This one has the earlier body with the painted wood window sills and the strap-type window lifts on all side windows. This car has engine number 5,699,521 which has a casting date of January 21, 1922, and which was assembled February 8, 1922. This would be considered “mid-year” since Ford generally introduced “new” models about August each year. In any event, this car is typical of the 1919-1922 Sedans before the “1922 updating.”

Just like the magneto is analog, many things about the production of Model Ts appears to be closer to “analog” rather than “digital” when it comes to change over dates. That said, we can still develop some “typical” features and a range for the change over from one style to another style of part. There could be and often were outliers. For example on Jul 20, 1909 (yes “9”) Ford USA manufactured (not shipping but manufacturing date) three 1908 style Model S Roadsters and one 1908 style Model S Laudalet. Those cars continued the same serial number sequence that had stopped previously with the last Model S cars. [ref page 482 of Bruce’s book and ref Jul 20, 1909 shipping invoices on his CD.

If I ever miss one of your questions just drop me an e-mail and point me to the thread.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Bishop, San Diego on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 02:27 pm:

Hap and Roger,
Thank you again for your excellent help. These are the only pictures I have of it and they were emailed, so I don't have anything to scan, but it's amazing what you guys can do to a picture and see minute details! Much more accurate description and year than I would have guessed.
She was very thankful for your help. Take care,
Bob


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