1909 Model T on auction in Denmark

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 1909 Model T on auction in Denmark
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 04:34 am:

In a month from now, what was once one of the largest car collections in Denmark, The Aalholm car museum, is parted out at a big auction event run by RM Auction.

Lot # 125 is a Model T 1909:
http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCars.cfm?SaleCode=AL12&CarID=r122&fc=0

It do have an open valve engine, but I can't see if the rear and front are the right.

The pictures may be the old one done for the Museum as it is known that the cars has been kept under dubious conditions since the museum closed some 5-8 years ago.

There is a lot of other nice cars and one could really use to win the lottery before the auction :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 04:46 am:

Wow. Seems like the estimate, even for Euros, is very low.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 08:32 am:

I has some issues. One would need to see it in person to know what parts are correct and what were incorrect. In any case the body does appear to be a 1909 - 10 style original. The engine is an open valve, probably an original but hard to tell in the photos.

The cowl lamps are JNO Brown Model 100, correct for 1912 and worth good money but not right for a 1909.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 09:52 am:

That color. Since I've seen it (in pics) at least twice before I assume it's correct. Or as close as they can get today maybe. What's it called?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 10:15 am:

Lots of Model A's also. I saw a Model A, N, and Y in the listing. The Y doesn't look like a Ford, but might be a european car.

They had quite a collection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 11:40 am:

They have additional photos and I think the following link will work. But if not click on the original link and below the photos it says "additional photos" and click there.

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=AL12&CarID=r122

Those do show the correct one piece spindle front axle etc. Unless the selling price is pocket change for the potential bidder, they should follow Royce's advice of checking it out personally. And of course if they are not knowledgeable about the cars they should have someone who is check it out with them.

I was surprised RM did not list the engine number – that clearly is something we could check for a date comparison. The photo is not high enough resolution for me to be able to read the engine number when I tried zooming in on it. Clearly some things are not 1909 – such as the side lamps Royce pointed out, 1914-1916 or so coil box switch, what appears to be a non-standard rear fender iron etc. I also think it may have the tapered rear axle rear hubs – (great for lots of driving but not offered until 1911). Note if the “Patent Plate is the original – it would also indicate and early 1909. It is mounted on the front drivers side of the firewall – not the correct location – but if original it would have the same number as the engine. “IF” the brass trimmed wooden running boards were originally on the car – it would be a very early 1909. And the mid-body mounting bolts do not appear to be the standard three bolt used later 1909 to 19xx but rather the earlier two bolt (like the front) with extra bolts added. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/172536.html
for some related but not exactly what I was looking for additional discussion about the 1909-1910 body mounts.



It would be great to know more details about the car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 12:34 pm:

Asking price is less than $20K. Not a bad deal even if you include shipping it back to the states.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 12:54 pm:

Dave:

The Model Y was designed for the European market and was in production from 1932-37.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_Y


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

10,000 € is only $12,249 US.........I can't believe RM is placing such a low estimate on that car.

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=10000&From=EUR&To=USD


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 01:02 pm:

Dave , what do you mean with : SHIPPING BACK TO THE STATES . Holland is much closer !!!
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

Toon, according to Google Maps, it is 718 km from Nysted DK to Klaaswaal. Just saying..... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 02:54 pm:

The Ford script on the radiator core is a cast brass one like the ones I manufactured and sold in the late 1950s. The radiator is a replacement one. It has a high neck. It was probably "restored" in the U.S. and shipped to Europe. If we had the engine number, one might find am older listing for this T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 03:55 pm:

You can email RM and ask them what the serial number is on the block.

http://www.rmauctions.com/Contacts.cfm

I believe they will also provide additional photos if you request them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 04:20 pm:

There are 4 numbers in the lower right side of the radiator. looks line 6556 to me which is probably the serial number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 07:40 pm:

It is the second or maybe even third auction where parts of this collectin are parted out. And there will be one more of all the project and unrestored cars in the museums storage sheds.

It's a sad story of a baron, that over a lifetime collected all this but maybe not kept the farming up to date and did not secure the handover to the next generations.
When the old baron died, his son had to sell out some of the cars and antiques frm the Εlholm castle to pay the depth after his father and the taxation.
The son went bankrupt after some years and an excentric millionair bought the castle and the museum with the collection.
After one or two years the roof in several of the museum building leaked so much that they shut the museum down.
Last year the millionair died and his 3 daughters are now selling whats left.
The 1909 T is likely restored in the US and imported to Denmark sometime in the 1960's. As the old baron was not that kean to make things 100 % original as long as it loked good - there may be details that are newer.
It is believed that RM have given some very conservative estimates to attract bidders. There are no reserves and everything must be sold.
Also - om top of the bid comes 12% salary to RM + danish VAT = 25% - in that order.
If you export the car outside of EU you MAY get the VAT refunded ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 07:49 pm:

@Dave: Ford Model Y is "Henrys car for Europe". It was very tough after WWI to sell US cars in Europe - in the UK in particular due to the taxation of the car based on enginesize.
Therefor, after several years of begging from the european head of Ford, Sir Percival Perry, Ford designed the Model 19 (following model 18). When it got marketed it then became Model Y. The nerds still argue why it got that letter.
It looked a lot like a Model B that had been for too long in the washing machine so it was shrink :-)
Engine was 4 cyl. 933 ccm 21 HP.
In 1935 came model 20 or Model C as it was marketed as in the UK. Bigger bore in the same block and 1172 ccm and 34 HP.
My other car is a Model C or Eifel as they where called in Cologne.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Harold - Noblesville, IN on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

I find this sale interesting, because a car that I once owned and sold to Aalholm in 1967 is in this sale. The car's photo is on page 100 of the catalog and is item #122, a 1914 Cadillac. I'd sure like to have it back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Sunday, July 15, 2012 - 11:14 am:

What about the Cord estimated at Euro1000? With a period conversion to Citroen motor & trans. Apparently Citroen bought 2 Cords pre-war to look at how they worked and tested their own engine/trans in them. Then post-war a Charles Dechaux converted several Cords as they couldn't get the correct spares (and probably 'cos it made the annual road tax cheaper) so you could still cruise the boulevards looking like a Cord owner while secretly driving a Citroen.

Interesting sale, wish I could get there. The estimates are just teases, old cars are fetching silly money in Europe 'cos your savings ain't earning a penny in the bank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Stinson on Sunday, July 15, 2012 - 12:01 pm:

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/ford/unspecified/1411905.html

This link says she is chassis number 6538.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer on Sunday, July 15, 2012 - 12:22 pm:

Hi Thomas,
About 30 years ago I bought a poster of a 1909 Model T Ford,its about 2 feet X 3 feet.Its now framed & hanging in the sunroom.The number on the lower left corner of the radiator is 6538.When I bought this poster,I was told that the 09 belonged to a Baron in Europe.I have also seen the picture in a book,not sure which one.
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, July 15, 2012 - 03:25 pm:

Car number 6538 would most likely have been produced in early Jul 1909. 6500 was manufactured Jul 8, 1909 and was a green roadster and 6600 was manufactured Jul 9, 1909 and was a green touring. Ref page 484 of Bruce's out of print book "Model T Ford" and his CD.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Stinson on Sunday, August 12, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

Here is some results from the Aalholm auction

1909 Ford Model T Touring - €36,850
1926 Ford Model T Touring - €12,060
1923 Ford Model T Centerdoor - €12,060

1903 Ford Model A Runabout - €107,200
1906 Ford Model N Runabout - No price given

Heres the link to the complete list of results.

http://www.classiccarconsultants.de/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Aalholm -Auktion-Ergebnisse.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Rimmer on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 01:54 pm:

I had a customer who was hoping to buy the 1909. He contacted RM and they gave the engine number as being 4527 which seems to be correct for the year. Sadly I don't think his budget stretched that far so I don't think I'll get to see it "in the metal after all. Just thought you might like the number for info.
Richard (www.thetservice.co.uk)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 03:14 pm:

A selection from the auction results listed above with conversion to US$

The Cadillac is for Dick Harold and the Detroit Electric for Les Schubert.

Fahrzeug Estimate Kronen Euro US $
1903 Ford Model A Runabout 20000 - 25000 800000 107,200132,248
1906 Ford Model N Runabout 25000 - 30000 00
1909 Ford Model T Touring 8000 - 10000 275000 36,85045,460
1914 Cadillac Touring 10000 - 15000 450000 60,30074,389
1918 Detroit Electric Model 75 Brougham 20000 - 25000 400000 53,60066,124
1923 Ford Model T Centre-Door Sedan 5000 - 10000 90000 12,06014,878
1926 Ford Model T Touring 2000 - 4000 90000 12,06014,878
1928 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan 3000 - 4000 60000 8,0409,919
1929 Ford Model A Fordor Sedan 1000 - 2000 110000 14,74018,184
1930 Ford Model A Cabriolet 1000 - 2000 100000 13,40016,531
1930 Ford Model A Fordor Sedan 5000 - 7000 130000 17,42021,490
1930 Ford Model A Standard Phaeton 8000 - 12000 180000 24,12029,756
1930 Ford Model A Standard Roadster 10000 - 12000 325000 43,55053,726
1931 Ford Model A Deluxe Fordor Sedan 4000 - 6000 40000 5,3606,612


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 04:23 pm:

OK, I was there and the Ford N was sold at 200.000 DKK = 26666 € (1 € = 7.50 DKK) + 12% + 4% VAT.

I've taken some pictures of the 1909 T:


Here is "the wrong side" of the engine (the boring part) - no signs of a grinded away boss above the wateroutlet:


The manifold side is always more interesting:

No signs of grinded areas around the valves and the little boss just behind the housing for the can gear is there.

What type of carburetor is this?


Is it correct? (I believe Ford had several carburetors in play in the first years).

Here is a closeup of the engine number:

It does not look like 4527 to me but rather 7527.
The number seems to have been attempted to be unreadable. There may be many reasons for that but if it reads 7527 it is still a 1909 engine (July 09).

Here is the dashboard. Is the coilbox right?


And finally what look like a pretty early rearend:


The car have been in the collection for many many years but it is not in a book I have from 1971 about the collection authored by the Duke of Aalholm and it does not have a picture of the 1909 T. It have of the Model N though. The absense does not guarantee it wasn't there in 1971. What I am saying is that this car may have entered the collection 40 to 50 years ago, where Ford Model T's even from 1909 was something else than it is today.
The body may be very "restored" more or less replaced with new. The museum had some very good craftsmen in it's peak period in the 1970's and also had some in the nearby villages. We saw other cars that where beautiful restored and some even rebuild. When it comes to restoration of these early cars where the body is all wood and not that much of it, it's hard to say where restoring ends and reconstruction starts.

I also took some pictures of the Model N:


Engine manifold side:


Engine other side:


Dashboard:


and finally underneath:


RM Auctions page with results, pictures etc can be found here:
http://www.rmauctions.com/auction-results-overview.cfm?SaleCode=AL12

It was a huge event in the danish world of classic cars. Not only was it what at least once was the largest collections in the country (way over 200 vehicles) but it was for many a last farewell to these cars and the collection as most of them went abroad. Despite the low estimates, and despite it was expected at least some would go high, it became clear very early that there where no room for good deals for financial crisis hit Danes :-) I saw a few local wealthy (after danish ruler) and some of the other museums, but I doubt they got much of what they had hoped for. Rumors says a Russian bidder took about 1/4 of the 181 lots and payed high for what he got. Maybe an ogliark just need to build a collection when he can.
I also took some video but have some technical challenges in getting it digitized. For example I have the complete bidding on the 1911 R-R that went for 4.7 mill DKK (approx 800.000 USD).

I'll estimate that there where 4-5000 spectators and they announced over 800 registered bidders. A record for RM.

History was written yesterday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

While I was writing some more figures have been added.

The prices was crazy!!! We have local vintage car magazines that every month these days advertises Ford Model As to below these prices, inspected and registered with danish licenseplates and newly restored. That 1930 Ford Model A Fordor Sedan for 130.000 DKK/21490 USD is upright crazy!!! It needed restoration. Here you have a newly restored (2008), inspected and registered 1931 Fordor de luxe for the same price in DKK: http://www.veteranposten.dk/visAnn.asp?Id=90601
(this link may only work until soled or the add is deleted).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

Here are the results:

application/pdf
AL12-Results.pdf (104.7 k)


It is in DKK and that was the currency that there where used at the auction (I think it is governed by law). The figures are what the buyers must pay - NOT the buyers premium. The figures are inclusive 12 % fee for RM and 25% of that fee in VAT for the danish community :-) For example the Ford model Y (lot #52) was sold for 40.000 kr. at the auction but with 16% fee incl. VAT it is marked at 44800 DKK.

Some lots are not listed. This is strange as there where NO reserve so everything was sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 04:52 pm:

What condition was the 1918 Stanley Steamer in? Compared to what I've seen for steam cars 26,800 euros/$33,000 seems almost reasonable (but then most of them were brass era cars)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:02 am:

I do not know, but I know a danish Stanley Steamer owner who where there and surely have checked it out.
I would expect, though, that given it is a steamer the boiler probably have to be completele overhauled and then there is all the regulators. The machine itself are pretty straight forward i presume?


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