Don't ever fall for the myth that adding anything to your oil is a good idea. And also don't fall for the myth that more ZDDP or "zinc" is better. The cheapest oil tested was O'Reilly's house brand 5W-30. It outperformed many more expensive oils, particularly if they were fortified with zinc additives.
Read here:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31791&p=378876&hilit=Oil+test#p37 8825
So who is 540rat and what credentials does he have?
Garnet
"The motor oil companies have always insisted that we “NEVER EVER” add anything to their oil, because adding “ANYTHING” to it, will upset the carefully balanced additive package that they painstakingly designed for each of their oil products."
"The Royal Purple Engineers I’ve spoken with, told me that the technology is not in place to ensure that every single batch of oil will be identical. So, if various bottles of otherwise identical oils are lab tested, they may well show different component amounts."
So, they painstakingly design the oil product, but can't get the same formula in every bottle?
What a bunch of Hooey!
I'm now replacing the flat tappets and the cam in my 1947 MG TC. It looks like the cam has been run with gravel in the oil. I have always used deisel oil (DELO by Chevron), but I've only had the car maybe 15 years. You can bet I will be using oil with ZDDP but probably not adding more with zinc replacers.
My cam is so bad that I am amazed the car still ran. Is it because of the lack of zinc in most oils? Is it because of the high constant "performance" valve springs the head had in it? Is it because the cam and tappets might have been 65 years old? Is it because the tappets are the flat kind? Is it because I sometimes add a different company's oil or a different viscosity oil?
I can't tell. I just know I don't want to have to replace the cam and tappets unnecessesarily again. Let me tell you that an MG TC cam, tappets, moly assembly lube, push rods, gaskets... etc. gets much more pricey than the analagous model T parts! BTW the model T has flat tappets also....
At top left is a worn cam lobe. At right is a realllllly worn lobe. Below you find the tappets... they vary from really worn to realllly, realllly, realllly worn... note: this is an exact measurement.
What's the point? Metal wear does occur. If you are using a zddp containing oil that may be the best you can do. Dumping in an additive may not be the best way to go.
The wear you get on these metal parts can be horrendous once you wear through the hardened surface and get to the soft inner metal. If your parts are already showing some wear I submit that it matters not if you use the more expensive Zddp oil, oil with additives or oil with gravel added... no matter you are already screwed! As with many other things it seems to me you have to start out with fresh parts and use the best oil for the application.
One take home lesson from that article is that it seems to support the manufacturer's claim that anything you add to an oil can mess it up. I think it also sends the message that you should carry a bottle or two of the same oil you put in the crankcase... I bet if you add brand N oil to brand G oil in your case you may be ending up with an case full of brand NG (NO GOOD) oil. Don't be surprised if things wear out quickly if you are like I used to be, unmindfull of what oil is in the engine.
That said, if I am out on the road and find the car low on oil, I'm out of oil in the boot, then I will add that brand Z from the service station and do an oil change later at home. I still think that oil with messed up ZDDP chemistry is better than a spun rod bearing!
TH
Seeing that is why I swore never to have another British car after my MG TD. What didn't break, it didn't have. I held out 40 years. That's almost never, isn't it? The six year old XJ-6 I bought after the 40 years and kept for 12 years turned out to be a pretty nice car.
BTW, I doubt that cam and followers were ever hardened.
The Brits don't make computers, because they can't figure out how to make 'em leak oil.
rdr
I found this site that was interesting regarding ZDDP.
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief2%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Cam%20Wear%20-%20Just%20Ano ther%20Engine%20Oil%20Myth.pdf
I cant help but wonder why he didnt test the Shell Rotella.
I just put the 350 back in my dads truck that we had a professional rebuilder go thru from end to end.He would not warrent the engine unless I poured in the zinc additive into the Shell rotella oil.The more zinc the better he told me.And his cars have done well at the drag strip and on the road for years.
The race engine shop supervisor I bought the additive from told me a couple years back that the makers of replacement cams discovered the low zinc problem while trying to fiqure out why they had alot of warrenty returns.
Is this just another Additive that ends up caught in the oil filter?
OT Fred. Yesterday I saw a car with SEQUIM in its vanity license.
There is now a Quaker State oil that has the words BOOSTED ZINC FOR EXTRA PROTECTION ON HIGH-WEAR SURFACES on the front of the container. It is Quaker State DEFY. It defies wear.
Since it is $15 for 5 quarts and it isn't Delo or some other thought-to-be better oil it probably won't sell.
The MG club I am in is now getting reports of torn up cams and lifters, but only from guys who know the zinc scare was a hoax.
Delo may let your flat tappet engine with heavy valve springs tear up the cam and lifters just as quickly as any other oil without the zinc protection.
A model T engine with weak valve springs does not need the zinc protection. So go ahead, pay more for oil without it.
I don't know if my well broken in old cars need zinc or not but I damn sure aint gonna switch to a more expensive oil that does not have it.
I'm still using the 10-40 ACCEL (service SF) that Walfart sells for $2.57 a qt. that I have been using the last 5 or so years in my old cars and all of my customer's old cars with never a wear problem.
I am tired of hearing how your pappy always swore by 20-50 Castrol or Rotunda or Delo or whatever and had good luck with for 40 years. That was then. They had zinc then, it aint got none now.
I worked at MG dealers for many years and worked on them in my own shop after there were no more dealers and only remember of one, an MGB, that I changed the cam in. And the owner admitted using the car daily and she hadn't changed the oil in years.
I've seen Chvy 350 engines tear up a new cam with new lifters in less than an hour.
After the rebuilder tore the owner's ascend and replaced the cam and put in his own oil the engine went okay with no problems.
So why won't some people listen?
The problem is, the zinc or no zinc argument is always being proved or disproved by testimonials of individual cars. Why a certain cars internals get chewed up, while another car using the same grade of oil does not is a mystery topic worthy of research and bar brawls.
The difference may well be more related to air filters than oils. K&N filters are better than nothing, for example.
There was a mid sized Olds back in the late 60's that ate cams & lifters just like the ones shown in Terry's pictures. I must have done 4 or 5 myself. Owner's would come in looking for a tune-up to repair the low power they had. We got to know better. Yeah, things wear, but occasionally parts are made sub standard and no ammount of lube proper or experimental will cancel out wear. There are too many T's running around without any additives being put in. Of course the people adding stuff will swear it's doing something. But most won't experiment on their modern cars because it'll void the warranty.
Aaron, aren't most cheap oils now low in zinc?
Cheaper oils are not necessarily lower in zinc. Newer oil formulas made for cars made after 1998 have less zinc additives. The article shows that those modern oil formulas, even the cheap ones like O'Reilly's house brand, provide excellent wear resistance provided some idiot does not buy a zinc additive and dump it in.
The article shows that the so called "zinc additives" decrease oil performance dramatically.
Terry asked,"Aren't most cheap oils low in zink"?
My idea is that almost all oils are low in zink, cheap or expensive.
When you find a cheap oil that does the job, has zinc, meets SF requirements and is easily obtained, others have tried it and are using it with no problems why buy some expensive stuff that is low on zink?
RD mentions air cleaners. Yup, good point.
Some MG cars I know of were/are running air cleaners but the cams wore out.
Some I know are not running air cleaners and the cams did NOT wear out. But they are using that antique car 20-50 special oil with zinc or some other oil like for service SL and adding a have bottle of zinc additive.
I know a couple of real early MGs, older than Terry's TC, that have no air cleaners and are using the Accel oil.
This is not rocket science or brain surgery.
There is plenty of oil rated SL (low in zinc)on the shelves.
And if you hunt for it you can find SF. No need to buy SM or SN oils that have no zinc.
Zinc was removed to keep from poisoning the catalytic convertors of newer cars.
I believe many, if not most, cam and tappets were made with chilled iron casting technology back in the fifties. When the oil companies increased their zink/phos levels around that time, the car manufacturers scrambled to find a solution to the increased "fatigue" type spalling caused by the new formulation oils. Thus a wholesale switch to hardenable iron happened in the U. S. The Brits were much slower in doing this, and we saw this accelerated fatigue when we tested Hillman/Sunbeam four cylinder engines as late as the early seventies.
Hardenable iron is not as scuff resistant as chilled iron, so with these materials the EP protection offered by the ZDDP is important when loads are high.
Reference has been made to using diesel oils when ZDDP levels in oils for gasoline engines were reduced. I believe diesel oils now also have reduced zink levels, as they can poison the Nox traps.
It is worth noting that all ZDDP is not created equal. We ran into cam and tappet wear (scuff) failures in a police fleet. They used a common oil for their cars and trucks, and the oil was formulated for diesel engines. This oil used "diaryl" instead of "dialkyl" ZDDP.
FWIW,
Roar
I read the test article with great interest.
He added ZDDP to oils that already had a considerable amount of ZDDP, oils that are favored by hot rodders and fans of old flat tappet powered cars. he even tested it in the new Quaker DEFY that I reported on in an above post.
The tester does not talk about common Shell, Chevron, Valvolene, etc. modern oils with service SM & SN ratings that have very low amounts of ZDDP..
Even if I never add anything to motor oil in the future I am still going to stick to oils that have ZZDP alreay in them for my flat tappet cars.
I will continue, for now, to use Accel 10-40 and Quaker Defy 10-30. I think they also had Defy in 5-30, which at $3 a quart would be great for a T engine's splash system. Oh ya, Sorry, I forgot, you use strait 30 roofing tar in your model T engines. Them there oil engineers don't know nothin 'bout model T engines.
I will continue to use the best oil recommended for our engines...... by a past president of the MTFCA & a man that I trust above all, Fred Houston.
The best oil is one that will protect the engine and transmission from wear & will lubricate efficiently...... motorcycle grade oil.... either dino blend or synthetic.
Personally, I use Mobil One 4 Stroke Synthetic 10W40. No friction modifiers, handles higher temps better, for use with wet clutches, most ZZDP in a SF rated oil. Price ??? , yes it costs more, but protects more.
Price alone is worthless unless you see the added value of what you get for your money.
So far, those who agree with Royce's mindset on oil are overshadowed by the majority that are "in the know" on flat tappet Model t engine lubrication.
Bob Jablonski
I believe motorcycle oil is just fine for a model T.
But there are less expensive oils that provide far more protection than a model T needs. Or any other engine.
A T has a 2 1/2 liter engine that goes from a slow idle to a fast idle and puts out 20 HP. Some a bit more.
Come on, 1600 RPM, 2000 top!
Are you that fussy about the air you put in your tires?
Do you carry French bottled water for the radiator?
Do you make sure the car only gets washed with distilled water?
Aaron, me fussy, paranoid........not !
Engine rebuild costs a lot more ( to do it right ), than a radiator, sets of tires or a car wash. ....... unless it's an exotic car wash !~ LOL.
Terry,
I am sorry to see all the problems with your MG. It must be a fun car to drive. I have owned newer MG's, a TF and several MGA's. I can attest that they don't seem to be built to last like a modern car, but to keep English husbands at home on weekends.
Neil
Ok,I know somebody is bound to have a nos can of period correct oil that woulda been used in our T's.
I know alot of Briggs engines say use mobile Artic or something like that.But there was cheap oil and good oil back then to.
So somebody needs to crack open a can or 2 and test it and just see for sure what was put in it and what was protecting these engines during thier heyday.
Then once and for all ,we would know what would be equal to, or better than orignal oil for these engines.
What did the T's have in their engines when they come out the factory doors?
Bob Terry, Brent's Dad, also an old car guy, used to work at a refinery in Houston. They got hold of a can of oil from the 1930s and ran it through the lab. He said it was awful, with sand and all kinds of junk in it.
That was when the 1,000 mile oil change was standard.
The 1000 mile oil change is still necessary on any Model T. The oil has no filter, and the engine has no PCV system to eliminate contamination. Worse, the Model T engine supply is shared by the transmission. If you have Kevlar bands, add another good reason to change the oil at 1000 miles.
Oil in a Model T does not wear out, it becomes contaminated. The cheapest oil you can buy today is perfect for your Model T, so long as it is clean.