I have been working on the interior of my 16 touring today. I took out the old upholstery, staples, and lots of rodent droppings - and God know what else.
I'm wondering what the next steps would be.
As you can see from the photos, there is a fair amount of rust on the inside of the sheet metal. Should I give a gentle media blast to this and rattle can prime and spray it? My plan would be to avoid hitting the wood and strip, prime,and spay that separately.
Also, when I purchase the new upholstery kits from the vendors, will they come with new springs? If not, are new springs available?
I have attached a few photos to show what I'm facing.
Thanks for the help!
Michael
Upholstery kits do not include springs. They assume you have the springs and only include the seat covers and interior panels. Order according to the year and style you have.
Springs are available separately from the vendors. Jim Patrick
Thanks Jim..
How would you handle the rust?
Also, can you tell from the photos if I even need new springs? They don't seem to be broken...just rusty and filled with that clumpy white stuff. I wonder if I should just media blast them, spray them, and find new clumpy white stuff (what ever it's called) to replace the old stuff with.
Michael
Since you asked, I have used muriatic acid for 42 years and have had very good luck with it and will continue using it since I am very familiar with it and know how to get the most out of it, but it is very dangerous and, as such, there are many on the forum, that I respect, that are vehemently against using it. Also, there may be other, just as effective, less dangerous methods out there now that might be more advisable for those just getting started. Good luck. Jim Patrick
I think the springs look good. Better than mine when I upholstered my seats in 1972. I'd leave them as is and just cover over them. My upholstery kit from "Carter's Cut and Cover", which has since gone out of business, had the stuffing sewn into the pleated seat covers so none was needed. I did cover the springs with burlap before installing the seat covers. Jim Patrick
Mike, If you are NOT going to take the body apart and sand blast,etc., then use a product called Ospho.It is designed to slow down or eliminate rust.It simply sprays on using a windex type bottle.Wear gloves,even though it is not super harsh on your skin,and wash well when your done.
You have one spring "line" that is broken - just replace this one piece, and any lines that appear to be about ready to break, use the same or close to same gage stiff wire. - Paint the springs with "zinc chromate" can spray from napa and that will stop them from rusting ever again.
As for the inside - call your sandblasters “and home mold remover guys” in your area and see if anyone uses "dry ice" blasting. This type of blasting only leaves the rust dust because the dry ice turns to vapor as soon as it hits and it does not pit or warp anything. Then shop vac up the rust dust and can spray some more zinc chromate paint and then top coat.
Travis Towle
Topeka, Kansas
I do use muriatic acid for rust removal on many small parts, but would not recommend it for seat springs. It MUST be thoroughly rinsed and neutralized, otherwise it will result in much worse rust down the road awhile. One must be very careful handling it as it is very dangerous.
A better choice for use on the springs and inside the body is some type of phosphoric acid rust converter. There are many brands, most are designed to separate gullible people from their money. A few are really good. They tend to be very liquid, and spray out of a standard spray bottle. Use a mild solution, spray lightly, allow to dry. It is recommended to be rinsed and neutralized, but I find it is not necessary. I still have parts that I painted thirty or more years ago without rinsing. Then paint with a good rust stopping paint of your choice. I use lots of Rustoleum.
It seems to be getting hard to get, at least in Califunny, but my preferred brand of phosphoric acid solution is Metal Etch.
Phosphoric acid can also be dangerous. Do not breath the spray!!! But even only an accidental whiff of muriatic fumes can be fatal. Be careful of over-spray of any harsh chemical!
Over the seat springs? Burlap is good, and correct.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Michael, sit on or lean against the springs you have.
If they seem good they ARE good.......unlike the driver's side seat spring in my '20 coupe.
If they're fatigued there is little you can do except replace them.
Michael,
Over the years I've learned that there are a few things that, when worn out, are worn out and need to be replaced. Seat springs are one of these things. They lose their "spring" long before they rust thin, get brittle and break. Snyder's started their business making seat springs and make them for most of the vendors. The upholstery kits come with burlap, padding, and everything you need to cover the springs. The upholstery for the seat cushions are pushed into a channel all around the bottom of the spring and crimped to hold it in place. That means the channel around the bottom of your old seat springs will have to be pried apart to get out the old upholstery and make way for the new. New upholstery on new springs sure rides good!
When I restored my 24 T Coupe the 2 seat cushion springs were about used up. I think probably because the 2 seat cushions were the ones that took the most weight and up and down movement.
Surpriseingly the back cushion was still in good shape. I guess it depends on the car and and how much its used.
There are several suppliers of upholstery kits. The one that seems to receive the most raves for quality of product and instructions here on the forum is http://www.classtique.info/.
Elizabeth at Classtique will make the upholstery to be clamped in the springs as original if you want, but it's far easier to hog ring it instead. If you clamp it in and have made a mistake, you have to undo the clamp and redo it again.
I have repro springs for the seat bottoms and originals for the backs in my touring.
And Elizabeth is very customer service oriented.
They're right Elizabeth's is the best kit for the money (comes complete with the interior panels too). I wasn't aware that the seat back springs for a 16 were so different than those of a 22. Yours look pretty worn, you might just want to (no pun intended) spring for new ones if for no other reason than the firmness of the seat.
Hog ring is one way sure, but you have to make certain that you pull it even and uniformly, otherwise it'll look loose, lumpy or sag. With new seat cushion springs, you can use the channel method, which to my mind is a far neater instillation, if I'd made my upholstery in vinyl I would've used the channels.
Your seat back springs look more like sedan springs than touring springs, but then I don't know what the difference between 16's and 22's might be. Even so, I can't see how you seat cushion fits under the seat back springs, or is it supposed to go in front?
If your putting new upholstery always use new springs, otherwise when that coil breaks and bites you in the tail it also ruins your cushion upholstery
Michael,
Since you mention this car is a '16 and you are asking upholstery questions, I have a recommendation.
What I am seeing in the photos are features on this body that came after 1916. When you have the old upholstery removed, you should probably examine the sides of the seats where you rest your arm. The steel end caps should be removed and there will be a notched round wood piece making this area wider. These pieces do not belong on a '16 because the sides are much narrower than they were in the years following. The upholstery on '16 and earlier was folded over in these areas and the welt came around the front edge where you currently see the steel caps.
I was hoping somebody would bring up the fact that the body is later than 1916 because I didn't want to be the first one to do so.
Looking at the photos in this and other threads, the body is not from the 1916 model year based on the following:
- 1917 model year and later style arm rests
- notch in cowl to accommodate the radiator radius rod was introduced in 1917 model year
- the two additional holes on either side of of the notch in the cowl indicate much later than 1917 model year (not sure when this was introduced but I believe it was 1919 or 1920)
- windshield is non-riveted type, introduced in 1917 model year
- top sockets are square which were introduced in 1918 model year
What is the serial number of your motor? Is there a date stamped in the front passenger side floor riser?
In the Model T hobby, it was and still is not uncommon to take a 1917 through 1920 Ford and swap out the radiator, hood, fenders and splash aprons and add a hood former to cosmetically turn it into a brass 1915 or 1916 Ford.
Perhaps this is the case with your car.
Erik and Tom,
Yeah, I know what you're saying - it's very sad - and I'm not sure what to do about it. In some way, I feel this is a good lesson for a newbie.....which I was at the time of purchase and still feel relatively new. I'm pretty sure the engine in a 16....at least according to the block stamp.
I'm doing my best to restore it as a 16. And, I have trouble knowing what parts to order because of the date confusion. So far, I'm ordering 16 (brass) parts and will try and make them fit. I'm afraid to spend a ton of money on new upholstery/fire wall, etc, and later find out they don't fit...not sure what to order/do at this point.
Michael
Fit shouldn't be a big problem. The body went though a number of only minor changes from 1915 through mid 1920 about. While heading to the store from my doctor appointment this past afternoon, I ran into a nice 1915 touring that I had not seen before. I stopped and looked it over for about fifteen minutes. It was a typical '15. Too much brass trim, starter, complete 1920s Ruxtell rear end. But most of it was proper for an early '15.
My point is, you have a nice late brass T. Run with it. Enjoy it. Make it as right as you can and you will be better than the one I saw today.
There are literally dozens of minor details to get right if you want. I do not know them all. Most people don't know as many as I do. Most people won't care. And if you are zipping down the road at a breakneck 35mph, they won't be able to see them either.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
If it looks like a T, starts like a T, runs like a T, sounds like a T, smells like a T and leaks like a T, then it's a T. I would worry more about completing it and less about what parts are and aren't original to 1916. You have a great looking mid-teens T that I would love to have.
Chances are, since most T parts are interchangeable that, somewhere along the line, in the life of that T, some long gone former owner upgraded his T with a newer parts from a later year which makes it no less a Model T. It just adds character and an interesting story to speculate on. Jim Patrick
Thanks Guys....
So, when I go to order the upholstery from Elizabeth, I guess i should plan to send photos of different areas, like the the arm rests, and have her advice on modifications to continue to make it more like a 16?
I hope it is understood by all that there was no bashing intended. The reason I made my point about the upholstery end caps is because Michael has a very presentable vehicle that is in the process of being re-upholstered. If he is trimming the car with 1916 upholstery and new seat springs, he has the perfect opportunity to revise the underpinnings to make everything appear right. And the great thing is that the revisions I suggested have practically zero cost associated.
Others on this forum have stopped by and looked at my cars and offered advice which I've always appreciated. I will be first to admit some things are deliberately wrong on my cars because I'm not about to hand my kid a set of 1912 axle housings when I can spend the money better elsewhere. In other cases, I have to listen to my wife when she shows up with a gallon of varnish and tells me not to even think about painting her wheels. I believe the name of this game is to keep these cars up and running.
I was typing as Michael was posting. Elizabeth's kit should be cut the same regardless of your armrests. It's the way they're nailed on the end that is the difference.
Also, thing that may cost money is that originally, the end panels of the 1916 seat backs were leather and the rest was vinyl (artificial leather). Many kit makers don't mention this and offer the leather ends for a slight cost increase. I confess my car is all vinyl in this area and I didn't spend the extra bucks many years ago.
Tom...I didn't see any bashing in the least. I truly appreciate ANY advice and observations.
Keep them coming!!! PLEASE!
Michael
Someone should post step-by-step instructions on how to install interiors (seats, etc) and include pictures. I am a huge fan of pictures.
Paul
Michael,
The upholstery kits are fitted by you as part of installation. Looks to me like even your tack strips at the base of the seat back (where the cushions sits) are still in place. Creating and installing the wood to which the upholstery is tacked is a lot tougher than installing the upholstery. After the wood was done and doors fitted, I painted my body inside and out. Here it is in my "paint booth". I then removed the body (see pic below) and installed the new seat spring backs. With a tape measure, a piece of chalk, a small hammer and air stapler I did my upholstery in a day and a half. I did the backs alone and I had a neighbor help me with the cushions. Over the next day and a half, my helper and I installed the top! (see pic) I'd recommend you go from seats directly to the top--that saves your having to remove the rear seat trim to install the top. If you've got the 2-man top bows, the top don't care if it's being tacked to the rectangular 1918 bows or the oval 1916 bows!
Mike...what year is that touring?
Rustoleum makes a pretty good rust neutralizer rattle can product. Available at Lowe's and Home Depot, so probably everywhere else as well. It sprays on easily, then as it reacts with the rust it turns to a flat black finish that protects from further rust by protecting from moisture. For the insides of the body that will never be seen again, that's pretty much all you need, IMHO.
By the way, that "fluffy white stuff" is what mice pulled out of the cushion batting, to make nests with.
It's a 1915, but, when I got it, it wasn't all together as a functional car like yours was. Someone had started "restoring" it back in the 50's and had gathered up a lot of wrong parts, like correct door latches with newer striker plates, a Holley "G" that was actually the earlier one, a coil box with one piece lid that was for a 13-14, a brass sediment bulb with no hex (1912), newer firewall with all the holes in the wrong place, and the list goes on. Shows the advantage of buying a completely assembled car--everything may not be right, but, at least if the car's functional you know the parts work together.