Pictures of lifters

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Pictures of lifters
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 10:30 pm:

I for got the pictures!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 10:32 pm:

Why I use solid


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 10:52 pm:

Were the lock nuts missing?

With lock nuts in place, wiggle action of the threads would have been restricted. Looks like the threads on the lift end wore out from movement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 11:52 pm:

Worn valve guides would aggravate that problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 01:37 am:

The engine was new rebuilt.

The lifters are not the lock nut type.

Dan what you see about 3/8's up from the bottom of the bolt is a machining down to the threads, and under that the bolt is sawed in half. On the one lifter the sawed part broke off. The other one the split would not keep the bolt from turning. The rest of the lifters are like that also. Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 06:50 am:

I prefer to use solid lifters and grind the valves to length. However, when using a reground cam, the solid lifters are not long enough. I wonder whether whoever makes them would consider making some longer ones? This would be in addition to the original length, and folks would have a choice of which ones to use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 07:28 am:

Mike,

I use generic over the counter valves, so I have to cut them to length and then drill the stems for pins. It is simply a matter of moving the dimension a bit if I want longer valves, hardly an inconvenience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 10:53 pm:

Were these for a stock engine or overhead valve setup? How far were they sticking out of the lifter? I ask because I just did an engine with stock valves, springs and re-ground cam. As I recall there was less then a 1/4 inch of thread showing above the lifter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 11:30 pm:

I am with Mark, The bolt was out of the lifter a distance to break, do not blame some thing on a vendor that may some one else mistake!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 11:52 pm:

if they were out to far would it have been fine with longer bolts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 12:25 am:

Mark, this was a stock engine, reground cam, and new SS Model T valves. They were out of the lifter about 1/4 inch, as you said yours were.

Joe Bell, does your cousin make, and sell these lifters, because you sure arn't listening!!!

Travis, you can't use a longer bolt, as they are to long all ready.

The bolts have to be very hard, and laugh at a file, the file should never leave any kind of mark, or they wouldn't last just a few miles. I used to use the lock nut type, and the reason I changed about a year ago was the lock nut type, they started using the wrong lock nuts that was to thick, and the bolts were soft. With the wide lock nut, you would have to cut the valve stem off to get the clearance. I don't know if they have them fixed or not yet, but I guess I will have to find out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 06:59 am:

Herm, I am not here to have a pissing match with any one. If you can remember when they first came out with this lifter years ago the bolts where to soft and they would wear, now the bolts are harder and you can break them if they are hanging out of the tappet so far. There is enough T engines out there when it was machine from factory that the lifter hole may not be square with the cam or valve with lifter and that could put a whole lot of pressure on that little bolt. I have found people using heavier valve springs in them, that it pulls the stainless valves down into the block and that sure does not do the lifters any good either.
I think it is great that any person out there will make repo parts for the T or any other car because it sure is a pain in the ass if you have to make or cast something yourself. There is issues with any repo part being material or sizes but I still thank them for doing it because I sure do not want to. This reminds me of the guy that casted the bronze window cranks for the closed cars, they where not perfect but they where not very expensive either. I made an original had many hours in it then I saw langs was selling them later for 60. that was cheap for the time I had in it. Then some guy made a crack of poor workman ship and the guy said he was not making any more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 08:53 am:

I think the proof is in the pictures. It is obvious to see where these were adjusted to. Live by the sword, die by the sword.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 03:50 pm:

Joe Bell, using a window handle, is not the same thing, compared to these lifters. If you put a ugly window handle on your car, and it works the window, and goes down the road,OK, but when you got junk defective lifters, you can't.

Those of you out there that have a set of these lifters, take the bolt out of one, and look under a Mag. Glass, and see how there made, and were supposed to work!


Ok, the first thing, the lifters were Adjusted to 4, threads out. That left 6 threads in the lifter, before the machined groove.

They did not cause the valves to hit the head. TO do that they would have to have closed up the gap way more then any thing I have seen.

If the valves would have No gap, the heads wouldn't have even touched there seats, the car wouldn't have even started. This is NOT just 2 lifter, this is ALL the lifters.



Doug Money,I think the proof is in the pictures. It is obvious to see where these were adjusted to. Live by the sword, die by the sword. ((END QUOTE))

Doug, Using only Half your Brain, and the other Half tied behind your back, only works for Rush, as again you are short, in that department!!!

I would sure like to here, what is Soooooo Obvious to you what happened, so I don't have to watch out for SWORDS, the rest of my life. I know you can't back it up!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 04:59 pm:

I will be the first to admit that I don't have one "in hand" to look at, but from the pictures it APPEARS that the turned down section is small in diameter that the root section of the threads. This would put a "failure point" in the bolt, IMHO.
So, the theory behind these was that the split section, spread out, would provide enough friction to prevent the bolt from turning in a running engine??
While somewhat logical, I don't think it takes into account the vibrating forces on this part, nor the expansion/contraction of metal parts--even if they are of the same material, the heat transfer rate can be different!
IMHO, a bad design all around. A hole drilled through the bolt with a nylon insert would probably work better--but I'm not an engineer, and don't play one on TV (oops, I did play a locomotive engineer on a children's DVD once though. . .).
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

David, you are right on the money. ALL the bolts Fractured in the Radius, as the split goes almost through the Radius.

I took some bolt Specs, down, here they are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

ok i am returning mine to langs when they come in. where can i get the good ones? Travis 785-408-3409


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 07:45 pm:

I would think that if I paid good money to have a "reputable" company rebuild my engine and the thing quit in 400 miles, I might have to reconsider who i would have do my engine next time. Funny how it is always someone else's fault no matter the problem. Do you really walk on water?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 08:16 pm:

I didn't make the lifters Richard Head, and for you to try to blame it on something else, is very Ignorant!

With something this simple in front of you, and not see it, I am glade for other people, YOUR not an engine builder.


Doug, face it, you are just not good at Figuring out mechanical things!!

May be you should try Needle Point!! You would have a line to follow!!

And I guess I could walk on water if somebody showed me where the Rocks were!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 11:47 pm:

I didn't put the so called defective lifters into an engine that was rebuilt for someone. I thought a professional was responsible for the parts he puts in. Not the complaining afterwards to make himself look better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 01:18 am:

I would be responsible if they were up, side, down, but not for the manufacturing of them.

If I was going to make myself look better, I would get a hair cut.

In short Dougie, your not making much sense!

You remind me of one of those Guys that think everybody in this world, is out to screw him!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 12:22 pm:

David Dewey,
There are many schemes out there for threaded fasteners not to move when exposed to vibration.
One, that was successfully used in a valve actuation application, is called "root interference lock thread". It was used on the lash adjusting screws in the rocker arms on the Mopar slant six engines, and they withstood much higher spring loads and engine speeds than we see in a T engine.
FWIW
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 06:18 pm:

Hi all, It also looks like the lifter is loose in the bore as it is shine only in some spots. I would think that it would be shiny evenly as the lifter rotates in the bore. But it looks like these were not rotating. But maybe Iam missing something { marbles}. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

Robert,
You are correct in that spreading the wear around is preferable over having a cam lobe running in the same track on the tappet all the time.
I have no idea if any of this applies to a T engine, but in more modern engines this is accomplished in the following way. First of all the cam lobes are ground with a slight taper, - then the tappet face is ground with large radius, 32 inches comes to mind for most Mopar engines. This puts the contact point slightly off center of the tappet, and it induces rotation. In addition the center of the lobe is offset relative to the tappet bore, which brings the contact point closer to the center of the lobe.
FWIW
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

Herm,I'm confused,but that is nothing new. If you knew you had a problem and you know what caused it,why the heck did you post it on here?? I can't make much out of your sketches. Looks like a valve stem was way to short and the nuts were out to far and maybe strike angle of the lifter and stem is strange?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

I really don't see why any body is having trouble with this. The lifter bolts failed, because the split in the bottom of the bolt collapsed, then kept going down in the lifters, until the engine would clatter, from the excess clearance, and the valves wouldn't open.

When the lifters were adjusted, there was .175 thousandths sticking out of the lifter, an .525 thousandths in the lifter body.

The groove in the bolt is not wore in, it is machined in when the bolt was made.

The machined depth is .180 thousandths Diameter, left of the bolt. One half of that.090 is on each side of the Factory split from the end of the bolt, into the Factory cut Radius.

The block has all hard seats, and the valves are SS Ford Spec's, with over size stems, .015 over lifters, and a Stipe cam.

There is no hidden problem here to figure out! The bolts failed, at the Factory Machined Groove, as they are all full of hair cracks, and then the two halfs at the bottom of the bolt, broke off. The Halfs that didn't break off, they Fractured, and the bolt split closed up, and, then there is nothing to lock the bolt from turing.

Now for those who think the lifters are loose on in the bores, or they have Mysterious wear Patterns, If you take enough Model T Engines a part, you will see that in all lifters.

Contrary to to most peoples be belief, lifters do NOT JUST go straight, up, and down. First you have spring pressure, pulling the cam every direction. Try turning a cam, with only valves attached, you will see what I mean!

The cam, when the lobe hits it to open starts on one side of the lifter, and pries it side ways. Then you have equal pressure in the middle, and then when you have the cam on the way down, and the spring pushing on the lifter, to let it down, is once again pried in the Opposite direction.

That is why where the wear Patterns come from Robert!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

It seems to me that when an engine or any other item is repaired or rebuilt, it falls upon the rebuilders due diligence, to verify to the best of his ability that the parts are adequate for the job to be performed. When working on 100 year old machinery you shouldn't just take parts out of the box and put them in. In this case, it looks to me like there are two problems with the part: They are to hard, and thus brittle and there is a stress raiser in the high stress area on the bolt, a design flaw. There is some side load on the tappet and the bolt works back and forth, thus it is loaded in bending as well as compression. Any looseness in the thread aggravates the situation.

I used these tappets when I rebuilt my 24 touring engine in 2002. They had about 5000 or more miles on them when the crankshaft broke (no fault of the tappets, of course).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 12:59 am:

So tell me Ted, how does a builders Undue diligence test a set of New Lifters to see if they will hold up.

The owner ordered the lifters, the owner lubed the lifters, the owner installed the lifters, and the owner set the clearance!!!

I checked the lifter body with a small file, and it would slide across it like glass, very hard!! I checked the bolt head with a file, it was the same way.

Now Ted, if you would not have any reason to think they would break, if you were an engine builder, would you have taken the bolt out to look at it, not knowing if you could get it back in place with out a special tool, or ruining the bolt, and lifter!!!!

I have had fiber timing gears go out, but I have never taken a New one apart to see if there was a defect inside!!

There is Absolutely NO MOVEMENT in the bolt for side play, they are 100 percent thread!!!

They are to hard, and thus brittle and there is a stress raiser in the high stress area on the bolt, a design flaw. END QUOTE!!

Ted, that is what I have been trying to tell you Guys, for 4 days now, and I am running out of ways to say it!!!

I don't know if it is really worth my time to save you all any Grief on the same parts, or not!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 07:13 am:

Interesting Herm, how you always resort to name calling and such to try and get your way. You remind me of the school yard bully that puts up a big front to try and get everyone else to back down. Most people see that you are trying to get free advertising by posting on this forum. You offer no real advice, other than you are the only one who does it right. You go on here and blame others (manufacturers) for any problems you have. You are the professional, you should be ahead of the curve. I am not sure I believe the hype that you don't need work. You sure advertise the opposite on most old engine sites.

Respectfully submitted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 09:20 am:

I purchased a new set of adjustable valve tappets in 2010 to install in my '26 engine during the overhaul, but I could not get them to go down enough to provide the proper clearance between the valve stem ends and tappet tops and certainly could not use the locknut, which was not advisable as the nut was slightly wobbly in the tapped hole. Very poorly made

I had the adjustable set that I had purchased in 1971 which were still good so I re-used them. The new ones were a complete waste of money. When comparing the 1971 adjustable tappets with the new ones, the head of the bolt and the lock nut were both much thicker than the 1971 bolt and nut which were thinner, thereby allowing more room for the gap adjustment. I believe the 1971 lifter shaft was shorter too. I would definitely not wast mu money on a new tappet set until I was sure that the necessary changes had bee made to enable them to be of use. Changes would need to include thinner bolts and nuts and a shorter tappet shaft to enable the use of the all essential locknut. If these changes are not made, you might as well go with the original non-adjustable tappets and grind to the proper length. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 10:22 am:

Threads such as this are very interesting and helpful.

At first I thought that the problem was the end breaking off but when Herm made the drawing the breakage became clear and I began to understand why there was controversy.

Now I am trying to get my head around the fact that the bolts split along the axis not just perpendicular to the axis.
Stress risers and breakage at the undercut can be understood but axial splits in a confined space are strange.
This leads me to think that the hardened bolts are too hard, already have cracks in them, and are a disaster waiting to happen.
But I don’t know!

Lively discussions and differences of opinions are healthy - personal attacks are not –
Sometimes the former are construed as the latter because it is hard to hear vocal inflections or see the expressions with email.

In defense of Herm – I once purchased an oil pump for a motor and installed it.
Soon after it failed and really messed up the motor.
At first I thought that I had done something wrong but when I pressed the supplier he admitted that they had a problem with a bunch of them and was willing to either give me a replacement pump or my money back.
Even when pressed he would do nothing about the motor damage or the labor to replace the pump.

My inspecting the pump before installing it would have done no good because I would not know what to look for.

I have heard Buyer Be Ware!
If I don't know what to aware of I can't protect myself from stuff happening.
Herm is doing us a service by pointing out a part that is causing a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 10:39 am:

Would someone mind explaining how the heck a groove cut in the bolt's thread is supposed to keep it from turning in the first place? (If that's what it's actually there for). I just don't see the reason for the groove Especially if you have to un-screw the bolt to the point where the cut it out of the lifter body. I'm assuming that's what happened from the pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 12:28 pm:

Charlie, the bolt is split, from the bottom of the bolt, up to the, and goes into the machined groove.That is why the two separate pieces, in the picture.

The machined grooved never comes out of the lifter body. When the lifter is adjusted, there is over one halt inch still in the lifter, and that is above the machined groove.

The bolt is split up the middle, so the two halfs spread out, and keep the bolt from turning, BUT the bolt being very hard, would not spread out with out the machined groove, for RELIEF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 12:38 pm:

Herm can get pretty aggressive pretty quick, as evidenced by some of his previous posts. In this case i think he was simply pointing out a flaw in a part.

I did this awhile back regarding a failed shoulder washer used in rebuilt roller timers. I learned pretty quickly that pointing out an issue like that on the forum likely goes nowhere because the direction of the conversation quickly goes into the defense of the manufacturer.

Vince m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 01:12 pm:

Money, I put two free add's on, years ago, when I first got a computer, they are still on there yet.

They are on many other sites I see from time, to time that I did't put on and must have been picked up for reference for rebuilders, as there are others listed also.

As far as I don't need work, I tell it like it is, and what you think, I care in no way about.

By the way, all that free advertising I am getting on here, lets have a show of hands of all the work I got from here, since I have posted. I am sure it will be a list of none!

You go on here and blame others (manufacturers) for any problems you have.(END QUOTE)

Dougy, I post on here for three reasons, to give opinions, to correct what I know is B.S., and to help the reasoning impaired, like you!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

Having read all the posts in this thread, my opinion is that this is a very poor design.
For wear resistance you want a very hard surface on a part like this, - "file hard" 58 Brinell or better, but you can not "bend anything in a part like that without starting surface cracks. If the part was case hardened, like carbo nitrided for instance, to 0.010" and left with a soft core, the "legs" would have to be bent to be inserted into the tappet in order to give adequate outward pressure to keep it from turning in operation. That would certainly create surface cracks which could very well propagate into the core and cause failure.
I'd vote for a lock thread design or, better yet, a lock nut.
FWIW
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ken bechtel on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 08:31 pm:

I bought a new set of these lifters but am not sure i want to install them! I had a lot of machine work done to this engine and spent a lot of money as well and sure don`t want this problem. i`ll delay my engine assembly for a while until different lifters are available


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John M mASLACK on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 09:30 pm:

Herman, I am on your side. You may at times have difficuly expressing yourself, and your temper sometimes gets the better of you.That being said, you bring expertise and insight to whatever you choose to talk about.....Thanks, John M.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

Herm, if the owner installed the lifters, then he is responsible to check out the parts to the best of his ability beforehand. In this case, he most likely though they were fine and he got bit. Getting them replaced would be on his nickel. He could plead his case with the supplier and most likely get credit for the parts.

If they were installed by a professional mechanic in the business of rebuilding engines then we have another story.

Ted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 12:47 am:

Ya, Ted, he is going to send them back, and let the makers check them out, but I don't think they would have showed any thing bad, until they got stressed.

Thanks Guys, Herm.


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