Benson Ford Research Center

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Benson Ford Research Center
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 05:11 pm:

I spent 4 days at the Benson Ford Research Center looking at all kinds of stuff. One thing I learned, and I've always thought this, is the drawings are NOT always correct. I will give you one example. Most of us with early T's know the castle nuts have square slots, and they do. BUT, every drawing we pulled for the early nuts showed rounded slots. Draw your own conclusions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 05:54 pm:

Just a quick look on mine and the only square slot are the replacement shackle ones, all originals are rounded, maybe just a canadian thing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 07:23 pm:

Larry --- Just to clarify, Gail Rodda in his "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide" Vol 1 page 1 states the castle nuts were square in the bottom of the key slot on the 1909 Model Ts. By 1913 they could have been mixed with both the earlier square and the newer round bottom style and by the end of 1914 they would have been all round in the bottom of the cotter key slot. Gail Rodda is addressing the USA produced cars and in the case of the Benson Ford Archives most of their information is USA and not for the Canadian or English etc. production cars. Is that the year range you are also addressing when you say early Ts? And also that you are addressing the USA production.

Kerry –- Canada production was often similar to USA production but of course varied in different areas. Initially the engine was the USA engine and transmission along with the USA serial number. In May 1913 Ford of Canada began assembling their own engines using the USA blocks with the “Made in USA” ground off. And more and more Made in Canada parts were installed on the blocks and eventually the blocks were cast in Canada with “Made in Canada” cast on the block. It would be great to capture what Ford of Canada did also with respect to the castle nuts. I checked your profile but I did not see what year your car(s) are. Would you please let us know what year and also if it is fairly original etc. There are a couple of original 1913 cars in Australia that could probably provide some good data points: Hopefully David Chantrell can let us know what Mabel his Mar 1911 based on the USA engine number has. As well as running down the type or types used on several other 1912s with known histories etc. And of course anyone owning a Canadian assemble car 1914 or earlier to start with (and if we find out the flat style were used through 1914 in Canada we can extend that search further. Remember the ribbed foot pedals were used only a short time in the USA but for years later in Canada.

Larry – did you also have a chance to review the Change Cards for those nuts? If Ford decided a square rather than a rounded bottom was appropriate, that could have easily been noted on the Change Card rather than the actual drawing. The same might be true for the type of finish – brass plated, plain steel etc.

Based on almost “no information” I would speculate (guess) a couple of things: The nuts may have been initially less expensive with the square bottoms so Ford decided to purchase those instead of having the manufactures make a run of the ones with the rounded bottoms per the drawing. They may or may not have specified that on the change cards. Later the rounded bottoms were determined to be less expensive and Ford switched to those. Again, it may or may not have been annotated on the change cards. For many off the shelf items Ford did not specifically make the manufacture’s produce them to a Ford drawing. For example the off the shelf side and tail lamps. They had to fit and function properly but they could have different style lens, chimneys etc. Even later on in 1919 when Ford began purchasing the demountable wheels. I am fairly certain Ford did not design a Hayes style and a Kelsey style. Rather Ford went to those companies and said I want a 30 x 3 1/2 demountable fitted to a Ford hub (front and back hubs etc.). And then in the case of the Kelsey drawing – the drawing on file at the Benson Ford Archives was drawn to reflect what was agreed to (i.e. Ford hub dictated the hub size hole and the 30 x 3 1/2 rim dictated the size but Kelsey could use the loose lugs and Hayes could use fixed lugs. Again, all that is JUST A GUESS at this time. Hopefully you will be able to add the details from the Change Cards or let us know that someone should check those in the future for additional clues. When the drawings and change cards are available – they have a wealth of details, but of course they are not perfect. As Bruce shared at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc18.htm

SEP 21, 1918 Ford Archives
"Last metric engines produced." (Not true, for metric [spark plug] engines continued at least until 1920, at which time they were no longer noted on the production records, but may have still been built.)

And that may be similar to the news reports back in 1976 that advertised the “Last major USA automaker production Convertible” which of course was true then. But when USA auto makers began making them again later, it was no longer true as written because things changed and not because the people made a mistake when they wrote the article (see: http://automotivemileposts.com/eldorado/eldo1976lastconvertible.html and http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/the-evolution-of-the-con vertible-9#slide-9 )

So the fossil record – surviving cars and photos of early cars along with the written records in the archives, libraries, tags on the cars, etc. are all very helpful to us if figuring out what was a typical production feature. But as many folks have learned over the years – just because it is not typical does not necessarily mean it was not produced that way from the main factory or as often was the case from one of the Branch Assembly Plants. There is still so much more to rediscover and document. As you have time, please share some of the other items you ran across while at the Benson Ford Archives.

If anyone is wondering what they mean by the flat bottom or the rounded bottom slots please see:

for flat bottom slots: http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/1419133l.jpg

for rounded bottom slot please see: http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/366l.jpg

Note the above are shared for the shape of the slots and not necessarily the shape of the entire nut.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Vagasky,Tucson on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Yea,......just like the bottom flange on the Battery Boxes, did they have a miter at a tight 45 degree or did they have the miter open a bit ???????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 11:38 am:

Ford lists 14 different part numbers for a 3/8" x 24 castle nut. I looked up the drawings and releases for all of them. Most, but not all, were extant; however, not one had square slots. All were round. The earliest nut drawing was dated in '07 and several different designs for a 3/8" x 24 castle nut from '08 and '09 were also there. They were all round, too. Took me an entire day. No reference anywhere to the round slots ever changing or square slots ever being introduced. As Larry says, draw your own conclusions.

One thing I'd been looking for for years was a definite date as to when the 1/4" mag field coil copper changed to 3/16". Everyone's best guess was around 1923. I found that it was actually April of 1921. None of the mag coil support drawings or the drawings of the individual windings had the information. I finally found it by looking up the part number for the individual wires.

The starter clearance notch first appeared in the drawings 12-12-18, and the Ford script was added 3-19-19 per the releases.

An interesting brand-new BFRC policy is that you can now take your own non-flash digital photos of parts drawings and pictures at no charge. Just get permission and fill out the paperwork.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

Whew! I just got home an hour ago from the 11-day trip to Dearborn to meet up with Larry and RV. I am tired of driving, and I'm experiencing "Old Car Overload". :-)

We (and RV's brother Jon) spent all day Monday at the HF Museum, then worked at the Archives the rest of the week, visiting the Piquette Plant one afternoon. I spent Friday night in Dearborn because I had a big day planned for Saturday. I drove to Auburn, IN and visited the Auburn-Cord-Deusenburg Museum. They have about 125 cars on display, and they are breathtaking! MSNBC named the museum as "one of the top ten gearhead destinations in the US". It is awesome. Then I went on to Uncle Jack's house near Indy and stayed the night. Sunday, I left Uncle Jack's and went to Jim Finney's house in Oblong, IL. Jim has one of the best individual collections of brass T's anywhere, including 6 restored Town Cars. (!) They are an 11, 12, two 14's, and two 15's. And I got to see his '09 Coupe which was featured in the Model T Times a few months ago. It is awesome!

I learned a lot at the Archives, and was glad to have a couple of "old hands" show me the ropes. The folks there are very helpful, and it is amazing how much information is stored there. But a lot of what I was looking for (Coupelet drawings) was not there. My only recourse now is to contact Fisher Body Co's archives to see whether they might have some of that info. But I did learn that the running boards I have for my early '15 Coupelet are the wrong ones; 15's used the '13-14 type until the middle of '15, and I have the later ones. Jim Finney had a pair of the ones I needed, and he sold them to me.

All in all, it was a great experience. I got to see lots of Model T stuff and learn a lot of useful tidbits. Now that I know how the Archives works, I can be more efficient in my searching for info next time. It's time to start a list of questions for when I go back. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

I appreciate this kind of research. I'm up to here in castle nuts, some with rounded slots and some with square. I had always assumed round was correct. After seeing this, I'll stay with round at least for 1915 and later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 10:24 pm:

I want to hook up a USB drive to Hal's head and download all of that info in there. Simply amazing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, July 23, 2012 - 11:03 pm:

As long as R.V. Anderson posted in this thread, his website is incommunicado, who handles the CORRECT strength wheel bolts for the rear hubs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 08:19 am:

I do. PM me. rvmodelt@netsync.net

My new site is under construction. Photos of each part/product, ordering capacity, the whole deal.


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