Recharging magnets in car

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Recharging magnets in car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Fenton on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 10:34 am:

I have some questions:
1) is there any other way of setting the flywheel to the right position,(other than using a compass) before applying the 36 volts? Piston position?

2) Once the flywheel (magnets) are in the correct position, is this repeated every 90 degrees? and if so could the exact 90 degrees not be accurately found by turning the crank exactly 90 degrees?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 10:56 am:

John,
You can get position the flywheel by looking inside the transmission cover but you need a compass to get the correct polarity. Once set you can turn 90 degrees for other points. One successful way is covered in:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/159978.html
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 11:39 am:

Make sure the car is pointed east-west.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 11:44 am:

How well does this work compared to removing the magnets, recharging them individually, etc etc?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 11:48 am:

The two posts on the above thread that answer your questions are:
Sept. 14, 2010, 1:41pm and
Sept. 14, 2010, 7:38pm.
The most reliable way to find the N magnet is with a compass with the hogshead off, especially if the magnets are so weak that it is difficult to get a reliable compass reading through the thick hogshead.
Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 12:53 pm:

Charging the magnets individually is best but I have done it in the car many times with great results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 02:53 pm:

Since individual charging of magnets requires removal of the engine from the car, a separation of of the engine from the oil pan and complete dismantlement of the transmission, requiring many hours of of work, not to mention new screws, spools, magnet face plates, gaskets, a homemade charging unit and possibly an expensive magneto gapping tool, charging of weak magnets in the car, between overhauls, is the most convenient way for most of us, to charge the magnets and, if done correctly, is just as effective in magnet strength, longevity and performance.

The above thread documented my experience in charging my magnets in the car in September of 2010 and almost 2 years later, my car starts easily on MAG and runs strong, providing more than enough current to the various systems. To be honest, now that I have done it this way and had such great results in a fraction of the time, expense and effort, I would not consider any other method. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 04:58 pm:

I did mine several years ago in the car, I did not know about the east-west thing and remembering back my car was facing north, everything worked fine and still is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 08:03 pm:

I agree that the in car charging works but it does not enable you to check the condition of the magnets. Ron Paterson was kind enough to offer to charge my magnets individually when I mentioned that I was working on the magneto of my '12. But for his offer, I was going to recharge the magnets in place. Turns out one of the magnets was cracked and would have eventually let go causing lots of mischief. For me, especially if the motor is out of the car, the only way to go is to take the magnets out and do them individually


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 11:42 am:

If you have the transmission removed from the engine, the magnets can be charged by placing the transmission(magnets in placed) on the mag ring. Correct placement using the compass is required, but with "0" spacing between the magnets and the mag ring results in maximum charging of the magnets.
One of the model T books covers this procedure, do not remember which, but it works and sometime it is difficult to separate the mag ring from the magnets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Fenton on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 11:55 am:

Thanks all, I did this procedure 3 years ago, but only in one position as I had not seen mention of the need to repeat every 90 degrees.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 12:51 pm:

Using (3) 12v batteries connected by charging cables and with the positive pole clamped to the magneto post, touch 8 times (1 sec. touch each) at each 90 degree position in rapid succession (total of 32 times) with the negative clamp.

So as not to bugger up any of the machined faces connect an old bolt and nut to one of the bare steel surfaces and the touch the negative clamp to the top of the bolt. There should be a bright flash so wear eye protection. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 12:53 pm:

PS. If there is no spark, either you don't have a good connection, or your mag coil is bad and needs to be rebuilt. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

I found the instructions I used to do my in car charge several years ago, I don't no what voltage I ended up with as I have never checked that, but still runs fine on mag and a bittner magneto battery charger as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sam Humphries on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 03:47 pm:

Thanks to all for word on how to recharge magnets in car. Found my compass today, removed the floor boards, magneto wire and found correct position for charging and marked crank pulley at 90 degree. Connected 2 12v batteries (only have 2) and zapped each position 6 times. Started on battery and first thing I noticed was headlamps. Never been this bright. Turned key to mag position and runs without miss firing. Thanks to all for your help via this post.

Sam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, July 30, 2012 - 11:54 pm:

Make sure the car is pointed east-west. (End Quote)

That was a Joke, right Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:16 am:

No, think about it. With the car pointed north how will you know you have found the north magnet and not the north pole of the earth? With the car pointed east west you have a very clear indication of when the north pole of the magnet is in position. I have done this procedure twice and can tell you pointing the car east-west is the way to go. Guess how I found this out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:22 am:

I don't know if it is a joke but I do know that it is sound advice that makes sense to me and has been suggested almost everytime whenever this subject come up, so, when I did mine using the in car method, I made sure to position my engine to an East to West alignment so the N compass reading I was getting could not be attributed to magnetic north, but to the N magnet I was trying to locate. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

When you hold a compass close enough, and in the right spot it should be, to get a reading, even if you had the car on a revolving turn table, it wouldn't make any difference. Compass needles are only affected from a magnetic, or metal source which happens to be the closest. In this case the magnet source is the stronger.

When a compass needle gets close to a magnet, that magnet has control of the needle.

All the instructions in the Ford Books, and Dikes Books, and the Factory units, made to do that job, left east-West out, so how could it have worked then.

Just another wild tail that somebody comes up with, and gets passed around with out any thought!

So, Gary, I say to you, think about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

Not if the magnets are too weak to get a reading such as in the case of my magnets. That's why I had to recharge them. When I tried to get a reading through the hogshead with the front of the engine facing west, the compass needle pointed toward the right side of the engine (magnetic north). It was only after I removed the hogshead that I could get the compass close enough to the magnets to locate a N magnet. It's still sound advice in my book and one step I will not skip. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 01:26 pm:

Jim, that is the way it works, the needle will be side ways when you have the compass in the wrong spot, or the other way is NOT having the flywheel in the right position, that is it is pulling North, and South equal to each other in strength, that is normal.

If that is the condition you get, you either move the flywheel, or the compass, NOT the car. You just didn't get it in the right spot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 01:30 pm:

Herm

I didn't post that information for people such as yourself who know it all. It was intended for someone such as myself who as done it and found locating N to be easier if the compass wasn't confused between the magnet and the north pole.

You have once again lept into something proclaiming yourself to be the end of all knowledge on a subject.

BTW, a compass will point at the strongest field with relation to its position rather than the closest. If your in doubt (and I know your not because you know it all), lay a magnet out of a hard drive next to the #4 spark plug. It is further from the compass than the flywheel but because it is much stronger will over power the influence of the weaker magnet.

I have worked with a compass a good bit. I have swung quite a few over the years in various airplanes and helicopters. It is extremely tiring that all of you post are such "look at me, how smart I am".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:16 pm:

Well, Gary, if you think it helps, and gives you piece of mind, you are open to do as you please!

I heard if you string some Garlic, and hang it over your radiator neck, you can charge the magnets facing South, west!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:28 pm:

I tried the in the car recharge on my 26 2 years ago. the magneto had shorted out through the ignition switch and was dead-dead-dead. I could not get any motion of a compass needle on the hogshead with turning the engine over slowly. I ended up removing the engine after the ignition switch was fixed, replacing the magneto, and charging each magnet individually. I don't know if it was the hogshead insulating the compass from the magnetic pull, but I know I couldn't use a compass to get the right position. BTW, the car was in the garage pointing South
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:46 pm:

Herm

Again, you post more drivel in an attacking mode. I guess if you have no technical explanation you might as well. I am glad I have your approval to do as I please. I was wondering how I would ever sleep tonight lacking such.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:54 pm:

I was recently given a 36V battery charger for a scissor lift. Has anyone tried using something like this with any success?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 03:14 pm:

Well, I don't post for Hard Hats, I post for the new guys that don't know, and would believe fancies!

I wish I could forward some of the posts I have gotten on this!

I got my point across, every man for him self!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

Jeff,

Whether it is (1) 36V, (3) 12V, or (6) 6V, I think so long as you have 36V, the source is inconsequential.

Herm is right. we can all do whatever we feel is right for us, so if I ever need to do this procedure again, I will certainly face my engine in an east, west alignment, for I am convinced by, not only my own experience, but by the experiences of dozens of well respected members who, for many years, have advised that, aligning the engine from east to west, is the correct way to begin this procedure.

Just because Dykes and the Ford Service Manual neglected to mention it, does not make it not so. There are plenty of things we talk about on this forum that we have discovered through our billions of cumulative man hours working on the T that they never thought of mentioning in their 1920's publications. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

It also don't have to be 36v. I've used my 48v golf cart successfully on the last 2 T's I recharged--1 in the car and 1 out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

Jeff, It's not just the voltage. The battery chargers will not put out enough amperage to do a good magnet charge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

I read once that magnets could be recharged with a welder. Does any one remember the current and voltage required? Welders I've got... batteries a little scarce.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:25 pm:

John,
I heard the same thing, and was told it worked better with an AC welder,
would like to have more information on it,
I have a small 70 amp AC welder that is not good for anything thicker than tinfoil,...would it work???
output is about 12v 70 amp max


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:40 pm:

Shawn,

You need a DC welder to recharge the magnets.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:09 pm:

I would guess an AC welder would charge them (+) for 1/60 second, and (-) for 1/60 second. the charge would depend on when you disconnected from the circuit. Just guessing, mind you, I only pretend to be an electrician on weekends doing "honey-do's". :-)
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:37 pm:

Thanks guys,
I know about the DC current vs current
but I saw an article about AC somewhere
it claimed a better charge,not sure how
I found this http://www.nwo-modelt.org/T-2007MAR.html
but it us not what I was looking for
anyone seen it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:54 pm:

You are correct Noel. It only takes about .004 seconds to charge the magnets when using the mag ring and 1/60 of a second is longer than that so it would indeed end up being whatever polarity was on the mag ring when you disconnected the AC source. Normally one uses an AC source to DEMAGNETIZE a magnet.

I used 18V to recharge my son's magneto while it was on the car. Old batteries used during T era were not capable of the very high peak currents of modern batteries. Using 36 volts is about 6 times more juice than you need since modern batteries are capable of some really high peak currents. The magneto ring typically is 1/4 Ohm of resistance so you are then looking at 36/.25 = 144 amps - way overkill and dangerous to the health of your mag ring. 48V is even worse. Welders represent a total unknown with regard to actual voltage or current regardless of what the label on the welder says its maximum is. Why do you guys always go higher and higher on voltage when you do stuff? Why do you always think "more is better"??? I successfully charged a dead magneto back to life with 18V batteries (6V in the T with an additional modern 12V jumpered in series). The multiple striking does nothing additional other than heat the mag ring more and more. Give your T a chance to survive the event and start with a lower voltage.

Do not attempt an in-the-car recharge of the magnets unless you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying it. If you think it might spruce up the performance of a car that runs on magneto - you might be sorry you tried it. Many people have had that sad experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 12:14 am:

John
would a 12 v truck (tractor) battery be better ?
it would provide ample current,
this is why I asked about a welder, it's output it only about 12 v but high amperage,
now I know about DC vs AC current and polarity

(I saw an article about useing a welder, not sure of they built a rectifier or how it was used)

my question us voltage and amperage needed????
min and max
thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 02:34 am:

Open circuit voltage on a DC welder is in the range of 70 volts.
Under load that will drop to somewhere between 17-40 volts.
The main thing is there is plenty of current available.
Bearing that in mind a series of QUICK jolts to the coils is the way to go.
You wouldn't want to turn the tiny peg that "sticks" the coil assembly into a welding rod....... YIKES....... :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 07:33 am:

The source of the east-west reference is Murray Fahnstock. It appeared in Ford Owner in February 1924. If you have the book Model T Ford Owner it is on page 238.

He writes, "When checking up the position of the magnets on the flywheel by means of a compass, it is preferable to have the car headed east or west - either direction being equally good. The magnets are usually so powerful (notice he uses usually and not always) that the influence of the earth's magnetisim is relatively unimportant. Though the cast iron transmission covers now used on Fords make it a little difficult to obtain accurate magnetic readings and every assistance is needed."

My initial post was intended to be helpful. My follow up posts dropping to Herm's level were not helpful and I won't allow myself to be drawn into the mud again. My apologies to the forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 09:14 am:

I have been accessing this forum for over a decade and have read countess threads accompanied and drawings on this procedure and they have ALL recommended 36 volts and now, for the first time, we are being told that that 36 volts is too much and that multiple strikes are unnecessary? All I know is I, along with probably hundreds of others over the years, used (3) 12v batteries (36 volts), with multiple strikes at the (4) 90 degree positions and it worked like charm, for me and my magneto, without getting it hot.

One maddening thing about this forum is that, after so many years of being advised by so many respected members of a pretty much universally accepted way of doing a procedure, reinforced by period literature and diagrams, the rules suddenly change and the accepted way is now wrong and even dangerous. All this does is create confusion among those who no longer know who to believe, because as far as I'm concerned, John Regan, to me, is one of the most respected Model T guys on the planet and whatever he says is pretty much gospel! Jim Patrick

PS. After reading this I know many of you are thinking. "Well, Jim, if you don't like it you don't have to log on" and you are right, but no matter what, I will always love the forum and communicating with all of the members here whether we disagree or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 09:15 am:

I have been accessing this forum for over a decade and have read countess threads accompanied by period diagrams and drawings on this procedure and they have ALL recommended 36 volts and now, for the first time, we are being told that that 36 volts is too much and that multiple strikes are unnecessary? All I know is I, along with probably hundreds of others over the years, used (3) 12v batteries (36 volts), with multiple strikes at the (4) 90 degree positions and it worked like charm, for me and my magneto, without getting it hot.

One maddening thing about this forum is that, after so many years of being advised by so many respected members of a pretty much universally accepted way of doing a procedure, reinforced by period literature and diagrams, the rules suddenly change and the accepted way is now wrong and even dangerous. All this does is create confusion among those who no longer know who to believe, because as far as I'm concerned, John Regan, to me, is one of the most respected Model T guys on the planet and whatever he says is pretty much gospel! Jim Patrick

PS. After reading this I know many of you are thinking. "Well, Jim, if you don't like it you don't have to log on" and you are right, but no matter what, I will always love the forum and communicating with all of the members here whether we disagree or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Even the worst Mag. that needed charging, we could always tell where the polls were, but then I have never tried to find the poles with a compass that was gotten out of a Cracker-Jack Box!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 11:54 am:

You're showing your age Herm. Those kind of neat prizes have not been available in Cracker Jacks for over 40 years, however, they are still available in gumball machines, if you're lucky. LOL :-)


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