Is there any correlation between the Model Ts that broke their crankshaft or lost babbitt from a connecting rod and the engines without external oil lines?
Did most engines that have external oil lines finnish the tour week?
That would be interesting information to know. Oil delivery is critical especially on tall long hills.
Not to hijack the thread, but I am still not convinced oil screens dont contribute to oil starving to the bands/drums as well in such conditions.
vince m
Vince,
Isn't an oil screen capable of restricting/holding only a small amount of oil? Or do you think the screen restricts the natural flow? Just thinking about how the screen might affect normal oil movement.
Rob
James,
I have never seen any reliable documentation to show that an external oil line will extend engine life but I have heard a few stories where an external oil line has provided adequate long term lubrication when the stock internal oil line gets plugged or stops working for some other reason.
The external oil line may or may not extend engine life but it does provide a back up lubrication system. It make sense to me.
Jim
I don't see the screen having any effect. This test was with cold oil.
Before Start
Starting
Idle
Hi Rev
When I know I am going to be traveling up grades, I add an extra quart of oil to the engine. Don't know if it helps, but it makes me feel better.
Neil
Vince, you are not alone in your opinion of oil screens.
Others have told me the same thing.
The same vehicle that lost all the babbitt on #2 had a crack across the low speed drum and an oil screen full of kevlar band material.
Kevlar bands normally don't need adjusting every day, but the low speed band did.
Then too, most Model Ts are not abused by hills that steep every day.
It seems with a screen the oil is dribbling over the bands, not flowing. The heat is just not taken away as fast. Just my opinion, But i run wood bands, so lint isnt a problem and filtering isnt as critical.
Vince M
In addition, imagine being on a steep hill - the oil will likely pass right past the holes in the screen above the drums, especially if there is any crown at all down the center.
We had a cracked drum/kevlar band situation on our st. louis overnite tour last weekend.
A real steep hill and a slipping band was the likely culprit. It was a real nice coup.
Back on thread - i was sure glad i had the external oil line.
Well look, the screen shouldn't be installed and forgotten about anyway. If it's there it needs checking. Especially dependent on band material which may clog the oil line. I believe that is the actual purpose of it.
I run a screen, but after reading that comment about starved for oil it got me to thinking. When I pulled my engine down last fall because of very loose triple gears I found that the thrust washer area was very starved for oil. Even if I had gotten the washers set too tight there should have been a good flow of oil through the holes in the webs of the drums. Another engine I took down had/has a screen but there was cotton fiber just about every where it could be but in the oil tube.
What if the screen was the whole shebang, not just in back where it dumps it over the 4th main. The Faithful setup only had a screen in the front of what was more or less a funnel, the oil passed through and once it filled up the oil went into the oil tube to the front, through the holes over the bands or back out the front of the scoop.
Looking at Ricks photos, at high speed how much oil is really going through the holes to the bands and how much is just dumping to the back of the of the transmission. Isn't most of the oil in motion around the flywheel and magnets at higher speeds? The top of the flywheel is inside a cavity after all.
Mark
No concern here, that diverter plate with the holes is dropping oil right over the bands.
....look very closely at the photos that Ralph posted, idle and high rev.
....note the 'whirlpools'? That is where lots of oil is going down right over the bands.
The screen get only a bit of bypass oil at speed, helps cleanse the oil over time. The major volume of oil is slapping the hogshead cover at the flywheel, and gobs of oil are slung, the diverter makes sure there is a steady stream of oil through the flared holes under the plate, directly streaming on the bands and linings. That is why you see the 'whirlpools' there.
Even if the screen gets filled with stuff, the diverter plate sends the oil over the bands and trans.
Note where the diverter plate is located, the screen portion is over the rear main.
The Ford system without a diverter plate, slings oil to the underside of the inspection plate, at least that plate has tapered relief in it, so oil doesn't cling, and can fall....the earlier flat inspection cover can't even do that!
Building on my last comment, people were driving faster because roads were improving, that might be why Ford went from a flat cover on the inspection plate to one that had ridge down the center and later added a rib to help defect more oil to the bands. Maybe there was not enough oil getting to the bands and they were having problems. Now taking the amount of oil flowing to the back of the transmission at higher speeds instead of to the bands is cut by maybe half (a guess) with a screen with the small holes over the bands, could that be the part of the reason for over heating of the drums and maybe not as much the Kevlar bands being too tight.
Dan I was typing my last comment at the same time.
The cracked slow speed drum caused the screen to be full of kevlar lint. I've had the same kevlar linings in my T for over a decade, and when I check the screen, there is never any lint. The cracked drum caused the lining to shred. Kevlar did not cause the drum to crack. Neither did the oil screen.
My kevlar bands have been installed for 12 years now. I may take 1/2 turn a year to adjust them, but that is all.
The daily adjustment was a known clue that the drum was cracked and the fact soon became apparent with lint pile level in the filter.
The Vermont tour seemed to produce more broken crankshafts than usual and also more loose connecting rods.
The real question is, "were the people that experienced these problems using an external oil line or did a lack of that oil line contribute to their problem?"
Adding additional oil will not help with uphill driving. Fill to the top petcock is enough for any type of driving. Note when you go uphill, the oil will run to the rear, which is where the crankcase sump and flywheel are located, so the regular oil level is fine. What will help going uphill is a working magneto oiler or other oiler located high on the hogs head so that gravity flow will send oil to the front of the engine.
Norm
John,
Actually what you are saying could make contradictory sense.
Running a screen contributes to band wear or cracked drum, which further imposes the need to have a screen...
I would like to see statistics on both the added oil line and the screen.
It may just be coincidence, but I'll bet most drum failures can be linked to the combination of kevlar and screens.
Just my opinion, as i have seen no data just conjecture either way.
vince m
Vince, I perceive a direct relationship between cracked drums and Kevlar linings. This has been discussed ad-nauseum. I haven't seen a like relationship with screen use. It is something I will watch for in the future.
John, Thanks for the laugh: "The cracked drum caused the lining to shred. Kevlar did not cause the drum to crack." (I think you are trying to say that the Kevlar in the screen didn't cause the broken drum.) In my humble opinion almost all cracked drums we see happening now are caused by Kevlar use. Just because a broken drum cheese-grates a Kevlar lining into the screen and plugs up the screen doesn't remove the Kevlar lining as a cause of the drum failure!
TH
The original post asked about a relationship between busted cranks or loss of babbitt from rods on engines not having an outside oil line.
No relationship on the cranks being busted as they are fatigue failures not lubrication failures.
With respect to the rod bearings burning out, an engine that is not receiving adequate oil to the front is more likely to experience bearing failure than an engine that is receiving oil. It is for this reason that I will always have an outside oiler. If the internal line plugs and you have no alternate source = burned bearings.
Babbitt gives up about 50% of its compressive strength when heated 30 degrees beyond its design operating temp. When it gets soft, it beats itself out increasing its clearance and failure occurs quickly.
Oil is there to cool. Once the heat is removed, the bearing life is extended. I run an outside oiler that taps the starter bendix cup and plumbs it between the front main bearing and the #1 rod. It floods the area with oil (removing heat). I am not a big fan of dippers but that is another discussion.