Anderson timer

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Anderson timer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 04:49 pm:

Can someone guide me on the proper procedure for removing the "flapper" from the cam on an Anderson timer? I know there is a nut on the end of the camshaft that has to come off. Are there any pins or keys on the shaft that keep the flapper an the right location? I am trying to do this with the radiator on and can't really see if there is any thing else on the shaft or flapper.
I am doing this because I have acquired a "click" that seems to be coming from the timer. It looks like the flapper is hitting the inside of the timer cover. I have been told this can happen and a narrower flapper is available. I have also been told that I can grind a small amount off of the front of the flapper where it appears to be hitting. As usual, these things seem to happen right before we have plans to go to an event with the car.....Chip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 05:00 pm:

1. Remove nut
2. Remove cup shaped washer that retains the pin.
3. Remove pin.
4. Remove flapper assembly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 05:03 pm:

Chip

The rotor comes off like any Ford rotor, remove the nut, pull off the cupped sided washer, and lift away the lock pin. That pin has a small flat head. Don't drop it :-)




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

Hal and Dan thanks so much. Do you think taking a little off the top outer corner of the flapper is OK? That is where it appears to be hitting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 05:34 pm:

Dan, your picture shows the pin opposite(180 degrees) from the top of the flapper. If I position the flapper towards the bottom, will it make it easier to remove the pin and see what I am doing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 05:40 pm:

Chip - Yes, before you remove the pin and the cup that holds it in place, rotate the cam so the pin it at the top. It's much easier to remove and install it from that position.

Also, the pin is small so make sure you don't drop it and possibly lose it. PS, don't ask me why I'm suggesting that.....

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 05:52 pm:

I don't see any problem in taking off a little if you are getting interference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 06:00 pm:

Thanks again to all. Keith, why do you suggest that!!! Ha Ha. I think I will put my "security blanket" under the car. I have an old white sheet that I use for just these kind of situations! My big fingers are notorious for helping things find the floor!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 06:12 pm:

Chip -- Some cams have that hole for the pin all the way through the cam and some have it only halfway. On the ones which go all the way through, it is possible to put the flapper back in the opposite location. If you do orient the pin at the top, that should help you remember which way it goes. Just remember not to turn the engine between the time you remove the flapper and the time you put it back. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 08:38 am:

Is it possible to mount an Anderson Timer cover in a lath to remove the ridges in the contacts, AND have the timer perform flawlessly thereafter?
If so, any tips to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Fenton on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 08:58 am:

Dave, you can't remove the ridges in a lathe, but you can remove the contacts one at a time and clean them up on the side of a grinding wheel(with a little skill). Once the contacts are replaced you can measure the distance, using a vernier caliper or micrometer from outside the side of the cover to the contact surface. They should all be equal.If one clylinder is firing too soon or too late you can bend the contact for adjustment. You can also clean up the contact surface of the flapper the same way. Last time I cleaned mine up,I filled the timer case with grease and it seems to be working fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:01 am:

Thanks John.

Can the Ford roller timer cover be dressed in a lathe?

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Fenton on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:01 am:

Sorry Cylinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Fenton on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:02 am:

Sorry cylinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:18 am:

An E-Timer doesn't have any of that unreliable mechanical claptrap..

rdr
Paso Robles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:20 am:

Aww shucks....

Sometimes it's fun to play with things you can see....I get frustrated trying to watch the electrons bounce around!

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Barker, Somerset, England on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:26 am:

I would say no. You can skim a roller timer, but the Anderson contacts are not supposed to be on a circular arc. I have ground and filed Anderson contacts and the flapper BUT the supplier (Mark Hutchinson, a helpful guy) will tell you that I probably went through the hardening. Bear in mind that just two things really matter:
1. The initial contact between the end of the fixed contact and the inner end of the flapper. This enables the spark; what happens over the rest of the contact doesn't matter too much.
2. Consistency of timing between cylinders. This is controlled by the positioning of each fixed contact and the accuracy of the centring of the timer around the camshaft. The Anderson is about 4 times as sensitive to centring as a roller. You can compensate to an extent if your front cover is not centred by bending the individual contacts.

I understand from checking a new timer, and from dialogue with Frank Fenton (who used to make them) that the deflection of the flapper should be about 0.020 to 0.030". With micrometers or a vernier, you can measure what you have from the case OD, the contact distances from the outer case, the diameter of the flapper tube, and the overall dimension from the tube across to the flapper surface. If the deflection is too small, the inter-cylinder timing will be more sensitive. If it's too great, I think the flapper hits hard and bounces.
You can adjust each contact, and hence the flapper deflection by bending it in or out - but this will affect the timing, and it's the timing that must be consistent.

You can check the inter-cylinder timing (on any timer except an E-Timer) as follows:
Connect a resistance meter between the coilbox supply terminal and ground. (Ignition off). Advance the timer rod to normal cruise position.
Engage the starting handle and turn it slowly until the meter goes to zero. This means that one coil is now grounded via the timer. Tape a piece of thin wood across the rad in line with the starting handle.
Keep the handle on the same dog (this is important), and turn it about 160 degrees, then slowly until the meter zeros again. Observe the handle angle against your wood datum. Go on and do the same for the other two cylinders. As the starting handle is 8" long, 0.5" at the end is 3.6 degrees of crank angle. If your 4 cylinders are within about 5 degrees (0.7" at the crank handle), it should be OK, especially if you are running on magneto. If one or more is bad, you can disconnect the meter and turn on the battery to see which coil buzzes, and hence which timer contact needs attention.

If you do grind the flapper, pay close attention to the end of the contact path nearest the pivot. The angle here should not be too shallow.

Don't be discouraged by all this. Earlier this year I did a direct comparison (same car, 30 minutes apart) between a good roller and a used Anderson. I have a test hill. I reach the bottom of the hill at 30mph and then observe the speed at the summit. The roller managed 24mph, the Anderson 26mph.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 09:32 am:

Thank you Chris.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 11:21 am:

Dave, sorry I missed you in VT. Saw your car downtown, but did not find you. I was in the judging area most of the afternoon so I never got back to look for you. We had dinner and headed home shortly after judging due to the storms, which we hit anyway!! Hope the car ran good. If you are ever over near Lake Placid, give me a holler, we can get together....Chip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 11:55 am:

You could also send the timer/flapper to Tip-Top timers for a complete assessment and or adjust or rebuild.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 12:19 pm:

Erich,

Thanks for the suggestion....it may come to that.

Somehow I manage to get a little pleasure in "fixing" something myself. Of course there are many things that I cannot do, and when I bugger up a project I do tend to kick myself.
(Tried to put the red liquid down into the bottom of an original {I believe} Truck Moto-meter....managed to break the tube and bend the cap....anyone want some broken parts?)

I'm just looking for thoughts/ideas on how to fix it "in-house"...I do appreciate yo our thoughts.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 11:59 am:

Can anyone tell me how many ft/lbs of torque should be used when tightening the nut on the cam for the Anderson timer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 12:04 pm:

As many as can be generated using a typical 6" long 3/8 drive ratchet handle. This needs to be tightened without the use of siperhuman force. Don't use anything like a breaker bar. Like every part of a Model T, a torque wrench is not necessary, and there is no proper torque. It just needs to be tight enough that it doesn't fall off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 12:14 pm:

I've never run a timer; how is the Anderson different from a Ford timer? Why aren't you all running Ford timers, instead of aftermarket crap?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 12:16 pm:

Thanks Royce. Thanks for the pictures, they answer a lot of questions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

Sorry, Dan posted the pictures, but they still helped!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 12:28 pm:

Gee, you wouldn't have that problem with an original Ford commutator & roller.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Hutchinson on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 01:00 pm:

Ricks, I seldom comment on items in this forum however you have hit a nerve, please allow me to vent just a little. I have run an original Ford Timer before, it ran well until it wore out. I have looked and looked and can't find a vender that sells an original Ford Timer. Please feel free to point one out if you know of one. So what is left is after market; not all of which is "crap" in my opinion. But they all do seem to wear out, at some point. I may be wrong, I suppose trailer queens and garage queens seldom wear out? I firmly believe the Anderson Timer is as much of a quality item as we can make while keeping the price point at a decent level. Feel free to disagree. hutch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Thanks, Mark. I did not know Ford Timers are no longer available, as I have never run any timer.

I'm sure the Anderson timer is as good as you can do, knowing Frank Fenton would have improved it if he could. Still, it looks like a Rube Goldberg.

Has anybody tried four Pertronix sensors in place of the timer? That would eliminate all moving parts.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 01:15 pm:

If the original Ford timer was so good, why were there at least 30 manufacturers of timers for the Model T Ford ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 01:28 pm:

Mark, I love my Anderson! I have put a lot of miles on it and this is the first time I have had to do anything other than clean it. A recent hard backfire may have caused this issue since after it happened, is when the "click" started. As stated in our conversation, I am going to buy a second Anderson and send this one back for a "Check up" and then I will have a spare. The gentleman that rebuilt recommended the Anderson and he knows the area I live in and the kind of roads I drive, I trust his word. 3-4 years of hard driving seasons and I am told I have the nicest and smoothest running T by many. That's good enough for me.
Thanks for all the help....Chip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 01:38 pm:

George:

Try a little high pressure grease coating on the flapper & contacts...... it helps. I doubt the flapper is hitting the timer case, possibly the camshaft nut is hitting the timer case's inside depression. A "short" flapper is one that has a shorter mounting collar, so that when the locating pin, retainer & nut is installed, the flapper assembly is physically closer to the timing cover plate.

The clicking sound you hear is normal with a Anderson, especially with a new spring.

I've run NOS Andersons & had no problems.

Just try a little grease on the contacts & flapper for now. ..... then you'll see if the flapper is running in the center of the contacts.... if not, you may need the short collared flapper. The need for the short collared flapper results from a thicker timing gear mounting web as found in repro gears & fibre gears.

I used the nylon timing gear without any problem in over 5K miles.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 02:32 pm:

Bob......you asked "why were there at least 30 manufacturers of timers for the Model T Ford ???"

For the same reason JC Whitney is still in business....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 02:39 pm:

AMEN !! Craig. Just my point. Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 08:08 pm:

You might try more than a little grease. Royce has recommended a handful of grease in a roller timer for years. I do that on the Touring which has a Ford roller timer. After wearing out an Anderson in just a couple of years with a 'small amount of grease on the contacts', I figured what the heck and put a handful of grease in a new replacement Anderson. It runs great. I've only been doing this for maybe 8 months and haven't checked it for wear, but I can't see how it could hurt it and like I said, it runs great. Give it a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 08:19 pm:

Craig:

Ignore the "more is better" mindset.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 08:44 pm:

LOL Bob....... :-)
Exactly!
Outside of "necessities" such as luggage racks and tool boxes I'm TRYING to avoid anything the car doesn't need....... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 11:37 pm:

We all read the forums and fiddle with our cars. Every once in a while a post will get you thinking... and acting. I love Chris Barker's post. It really got me thinking.

I've run Anderson timers exclusively for around 15 years. I haven't had to touch my 1927's timer in over 10 years. Even so the performance of the car has steadily degraded. Recently I found that there are problems cropping up in my Ron Patterson coils after maybe 12 years of constant use. So I will need to deal with resetting them soon. For the last 3 years I have been cogitating over checking on my Anderson, but it runs so hey, why bother? I was going to make a setting fixture, but that doesn't allow for out of center timer positioning.... then along comes Chris and Voila! Problem solved.

I taped paper onto my radiator and using a cheap electronic VOM I found when a contact was made. Check it with power... cyl #1, I marked crank handle position on the paper. I went around and did the same for the other 3 cylinders. Depending on where you picked a datum I had up to 20° difference (±10°)!

I had two of the cylinders firing at exactly 180° so I chose them as a starting point and worked on the other two. I found that moving an Anderson contact .005" would change the sparking position about 8°... man is that touchy!

Well, fiddle with it for 20 minutes and then go for a ride. Man the car hasn't run that smoothly in years!

Chris' procedure is simple and intuitive... thanks for an elegant procedure!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 06:31 am:

Terry,

You say you didn't touch your Anderson for ten years. Do you mean you didn't open it to clean and lube, or do you just mean it has been trouble free for ten years?

My first one wore quicker than I would have thought from reading the forum. Seems like most say to clean and lube annually. Mine went over a year due to my inattentiveness. I figured that is why it didn't last. However, if yours ran 10 years with no attention, maybe mine had something else going on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

I admit it, I did put a drop of oil on the flapper ten years ago and each time I had the engine out for repair. (So every few years it gets a drop of oil... no I don't suggest pulling your engine out so you can be sure your timer gets oiled!) I don't put any stuff inside the timer and I don't oil it. There seems to be a little oil getting past the modern seal on the camshaft so there you go.

When I opened it up yesterday to adjust the contacts I did find some dry dirt/powder in there which I think used to be steel on the flapper or contacts, I wiped that out. When it mixed with the drop of motor oil on the bottom of the timer it became dirty sludge. No problem, that stuff didn't get up onto the contacts.

I just did my 10 year timer service, I'll post the timer's condition on the forum in 2021 when I have to do the next service.

BTW, have any of you figured out what to do and how to do it on your rice burner car when it says to service the air bags in 10 years? That is more of a problem than figuring what to do to your Anderson timer every 10 years!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 07:18 pm:

Im baffled. Any idea why mine didn't last? I used the pack of grease that came with it, but probably let it go two years before checking it again. I checked it when it began 'auto advancing'. I found a burr worn into the flapper. I just hit on the grinding wheel and reinstalled with a little no name grease. It probably went another year or maybe more and wasn't running too good. Upon inspection I found it worn pretty good which was causing some cylinders go fire before others. I put another one on there but packed it full of grease this time. Time will tell I guess, but I like your experience better than mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, July 30, 2012 - 05:54 am:

Hal, mine is 6 years old. I installed with no grease. I took it off one day a while back to clean it because I was bored. I cleaned the dirt in the bottom, looked at it (looked fine still) and put it back on. I run a few thousand miles per year.


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