Bad gas? or . . .

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Bad gas? or . . .
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 06:34 pm:

So, I filled up with gas this morning, first time I've really filled the speedster up all the way. Drove out about 6 miles to my folks house, then a couple hours later drove back. The car sat in the garage for maybe 2, 3 hours and I walk in and it's just bleeding gas on the floor from the carb. I was thinking "what in the world?" This is a very freshly rebuilt NH carb that I've driven and used with zero issues for the last couple of months.

Apparently I hadn't shut the fuel off at the tank like I normally do. However, it still shouldn't leak like that. I started by taking off the fuel bowl and when I did, there was a almost a quarter of a thimble of very very fine sand, like somebody dropped all the rocks off of a piece of 1500 sandpaper into my gas tank.

Long story shorter, I think the sand was clogging my float valve open and allowing the gas to just drain from the tank. The sediment bulb was slap full but the grit was so fine it was making it past the screen. I'm not sure if it was dusty stuff from a dirt dobber in the gas tank, that hadn't crumbled till now because this was the first FULL tank of gas, or if I got bad gas. Either way, my tank is out, the sediment bulb apart and cleaned out, the carb completely dismantled and cleaned out, and I hosed out the gas tank and am letting it dry.

I'm going to replace the gas line, it's actually copper tubing. I was going to leave it alone because I wasn't having any problems, but I guess I might as well since it's all apart. I just wonder if it was the gas I got or something already inside the tank. Weird.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 06:46 pm:

That "sand" is varnish created by pre-ethanol gas.
One of the reasons I actually like ethanol is because of its cleaning properties.
Fill the tank full to finish cleaning the rest of the gas tank and you'll be fine.
This is where a sediment bowl of any kind is indispensable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 06:48 pm:

Seth

I'm betting on the dirt dauber theory. Its been close to 40 years since I have pumped any bad gas.

Also the fine particles you mention sure sound like what you get in a dirt dauber nest.

I doubt if you ever see that problem again.

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

Ethanol and its cleaning properties? Seriously what have you been drinking to imagine something so opposite from reality?

Ethanol is hygroscopic. In other words it collects water readily and holds it in suspension. The water content comes from the humidity in air, and from condensation that forms on the inside of gasoline station underground storage tanks, and within the gas tank on your car.

If the car sits idle a day or two the gasoline / ethanol components in your fuel evaporate first, leaving a mixture of water and additives in your carburetor. This mixture is highly corrosive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 07:26 pm:

How would a dauber get in? Was the lid off or the potato off?

Did you or someone before you clean the tank by putting gravel in and shake it around? Perhaps some sand left over. Anyway, If you saved the gas, you can take a large funnel and put a coffee filter in it and strain the gas. That should remove any sediment remaining.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 07:41 pm:

It's probably just rust in the gas tank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 07:42 pm:

Cut it out Royce.
The cleaning properties of ethanol are well known.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

Royce, how much does the temperature of gas in an underground storage tank vary from day to day, and from day to night? If moist air can get in, how do they keep fuel vapors from escaping?



rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 08:19 pm:

I have found that e85 is one of the best things other than boiling for cleaning a fuel tank of old gas varnish I use an electric fuel pump with a home made spray tip and spray clean the tank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 08:57 pm:

Norman: There's no telling. My grandfather had decided to leave me the car, but one of his kids, my uncle, swore up and down it had always been promised to him. So he had the car about 9 months in an open barn with a tarp on it. It could be rust or a dirt dobber nest. It just surprised me there was enough to fill up the whole sediment bulb, and that it was so fine it just passed right through the screen. I did clean about a dozen nests when I first got the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 01:14 am:

Those little critters can get in lots of amazing places, like through the drain and valve on my compressor tank and from there through about sixty feet of half inch pipe and into the connector where the air hose hooks up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 01:29 pm:

"Royce, how much does the temperature of gas in an underground storage tank vary from day to day, and from day to night? If moist air can get in, how do they keep fuel vapors from escaping?"
To answer your your question Ralph, the underground fuel temp. varies very little. Only a couple degrees where you are from summer to winter. Virtually all of the stations in southern Calif. have a gadget called a Veeder Root tank monitor on them that not only measures volume but other factors including temp and (possible)water level in the tanks and is capable of shutting the system down if it is outside pre-established parameters. The tank vents have baffles on the top to prevent rain water from going down them and the vapors are a closed loop (in Calif.) from the boot on the nozzle all the way to the tank. The dispensers on the island (they're not 'pumps' anymore, the pumps are in the tanks), all have screw-on filters similar to the oil filters on modern cars. The filters absorb moisture. Too much moisture in the filter and they just plug up and wont dispense gas.
My company built a lot of the gas stations in So. Cal. back in the 80's before I got out of the business.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

Aight, so I got the new gas line in and got everything back together, and it's still doing the same thing. Gas literally keeps going to bowl until it floods up the needle seat and drips out of the air inlet where the choke is.

SO! I took the carb apart and the float is fine but the valve and seat I guess are messed up. It's really frustrating because it's the new ball-bearing style that isn't supposed to stick. Unfortunately now it doesn't stop the gas either.

What's everybody's experience with NH carbs? Is the ball bearing style float valve the best and I just got a dud, or should get the needle style?

I've got the offending part out and popped the balls out to see if I could clean any crud out of it but it looks fine. I've played with it and sometimes when I blow in it and push the big ball it seals, and sometimes it doesn't, so it's definitely the problem. ARGH. I'm ready for this darn car to just be fixed and run and drive for more than a day or two.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 10:03 pm:

The new ball bearing style is awful, and they always stick either open or closed. They are sold as the "Grose Jet". You need to replace that with the original style needle and seat which is entirely trouble free.

Like many "new" and "improved" things in the vendor catalogs the Grose Jet does nothing except make your car unreliable and in may cases unusable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 10:14 pm:

I bought a Grose jet back in '97, and it would stick shut. Replaced it with new needle and neoprene (viton?) seat, and no more of that. The real fix was a Winfield on the Fronty, and a Schebler FA on the flathead.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 11:09 pm:

Craig is correct. That is exactly the result of Ethanol fuel disintergrating the "varnish" left behind by old style fuel. It's text book standard. The stuff resembles sand. It's a very light yellow/brown color. It actually flakes off the tank and breaks down further with time. Add a temporary in line filter (get the clear one's from a mower shop). You'll need a few to replace them as they clog up until the tank clears. And lose that ball type float valve.


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