Urgent Help Needed. Is hi-temp silicon sealer (+330C) suitable for new copper head gasket?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Urgent Help Needed. Is hi-temp silicon sealer (+330C) suitable for new copper head gasket?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 07:49 am:

Hi Everyone,

I'm okay but need for urgent advice as my visa runs out soon so I must get back on the road ASAP.

Was driving the T and noticed the smell of smoke. Turned engine off then pulled over, lifted the hood and there was smoke (from the oil?) coming out of the engine fill hole and elsewhere. Checked radiator; it was almost empty. Let it cool for a while, when I put some water into the radiator it blew back out as it was still very hot inside. Eventually, I filled the radiator up and I could not see a new leak (I have a small leak from the top of the radiator that doesn't cause a problem). When I went to crank start the engine I saw that water was coming out of three of the cylinder head bolts during compression! This may explain why the engine had not been running well the past few days...I thought it was bad petrol. Had the car towed to the Shiite holy city of Qom (for the tow I removed three of the plugs and left the car in hi gear...fourth plug I couldn't get out...it has been giving me a problem). Next day I pulled the head off and I cannot see any damage and the engine turns over fine. I cleaned things up and I have a new copper gasket with me. With the help of some very nice people here I went and purchased a new torque wrench...people are amazed to see such a car in there country and want to see my continue.

For the below Qs note that I have a Z head.

Q1. Is it possible the severe overheating has caused damage that I cannot see? How well can a T engine cope with such an incident?

Q2. I've asked and the only head gasket sealer available here is a hi-temp silicon one rated to +330C. Will this be okay to use? If no, what should I do? The Ford service book says nothing about using any type of sealer, while the MTFCA Engine book says 'cement' is a good idea.

Thanks,
Constantine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:08 am:

I put the Z head on a polished piece of granite and it doean't seemed to be warped. Do Z heads survive engine overheating normally?

This incident took place on the Qom - Tehran freeway about 15km north of Qom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:08 am:

Constantine,

Silicone sealant is not suitable for use on a head gasket. However it might be a good idea to apply some of that sealant to each of the head bolts right on the end. Some of the head bolt holes are probably rusted through into the water jacket on most Model T blocks.

If I were in your location with that problem I would try to find some silver spray paint to use on the head gasket. Clean the block and the head very carefully using a solvent. Gasoline for example makes an excellent solvent for this purpose.

Spray both sides of the gasket with the silver paint. A piece of coat hangar wire is handy to keep from painting your hand during thiis process. Let the paint dry until tacky, then install the gasket onto the clean dry block.

Early blocks are not tolerant of high torque, you will generally pull threads out of the block at 50 lb - ft if they have not been heli coiled previously.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:13 am:

Constantine,

This happens frequently with the Z and other aluminum heads. The aluminum cylinder heads expand and contract considerably when they heat and cool. Often this can result in a blown head gasket. The replacement gasket should fix the problem. Be sure to run the engine until at operating temperature, let it cool completely, then recheck the bolts for tightness while cool.

Do not re - torque the bolts after that. There is such a thing as "too much of a good thing".

You probably have water in your oil, don't forget to drain and replace it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:14 am:

Q1, yes, the rings can collapse from over heating, but if your bores show no sign of scoring, then try to start again, may have to put a small amount of oil on pistons to raise compression, change your oil as well, it will be burnt.
Q2, if that's all you can get, I think better than nothing, check your head the best you can for flatness, as alloy doen't like to be cooked, it should be resurfaced.
Best of luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:20 am:

Royce,

Thanks for your reply.

Is carb cleaner okay as a solvent to clean the block and the head?

Why is the silicone sealant I describe not good?

What type of silver paint? Why silver?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:27 am:

Royce and Kerry,

Yes, will change the oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:31 am:

also...should I torque to 55 ft-Ibs or less?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:33 am:

Silver paint has high concentrations of aluminum particles which helps seal minute leaks.

Copper gasket paint is better but more difficult to find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:41 am:

Constantine,

I would go 50 pounds.

Silicone sealant is a low temperature product. Suitable for exhaust, water and such.

Silver paint is a good substitute for head gasket shellac type sealant, and is what I normally use because it works so well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:56 am:

I know you are in an area where it might be difficult to get some spray on or spread on copper gasket sealer, like Permatex, but, they have vehicles and trucks in Tehran with very good experienced mechanics that have need to repair the engines, so I'm sure you can find or borrow some from a mechanic or a garage. Perhaps you can befriend several english speaking locals and tell them what you need and for a few dollars, have them see if they can find a mechanic that will lend you some. The following thread has a photo of a tube of Permatex copper gasket sealant, in case the locals need to read up on what you need and see a photo of what you are looking for: www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/132071.html.

When I was stationed in Karachi, Pakistan in 1975, also a Muslim country, like Tehran, with the same general culture, they did not have car repair garages like we have here. All of the vehicle repairs were done outside of town on the side of the roads concentrated in one area in sort of a mechanic's village I remember driving past hundreds of trucks, cars, taxis and rickshas in various states of repair on both sides of the road stretching for a considerable distance. The amount of black oil covering the ground in the area under the vehicles indicated that this area had been used for that purpose for a long time. Perhaps Qom has the same type of mechanics village where vehicles are taken to be repaired. If so, this might be where you need to go to find what you need. Good luck. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Rowles on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:56 am:

Never pour water into an over-heated engine. The cold water interaction with the very hot cast iron and other metals not only generates immediate dangerous team but also will likely crack weak places that may result in destroyed block or head. Wait till it cools to a point you can hold your hand on the head and block and then slowly add water , stopping if you still get steam out of the radiator fill opening to let her cool some more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:22 am:

William and Jim,

Thanks for your replies. US sanctions and the fact I'm not in Tehran means good stuff like Permatex is not going to be easy to find...it may be available but will take time to find...time I don't have. So far everyone I've met here has told me that hi-temp silicone is used.

Does the temp in head gasket area reach above +330C?

Royce, can it be any silver paint or must it be hi-temp engine paint? I fear the quality of spray can paint is not what you get in the USA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:31 am:

Yes, any silver paint. It need not be high temp. So long as it is not water color it will be fine. Either enamel or lacquer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:33 am:

This is the stuff I use - it comes from Home Depot:
http://www.tcpglobal.com/SprayPaintDepot/ItemDetail.aspx?ItemNo=KRY+1403&gclid=C Knf6bKDxLECFWVvTAodml0AoA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:37 am:

Here is a map showing Constantine's progress and route:
<iframe></iframe><br><small><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&amp;source=embed&amp;saddr=Qom,+Iran&amp;daddr=Russia,+Moscow&amp;hl=en&amp;geocode =FYCQEAId5U8IAymV4Yy4bruTPzFwRGDCwb41zA%3BFUmRUgMdKfc9AinJsNRz_Eq1RjFMz1dXzNZEPQ &amp;aq=0&amp;oq=moscow+russia&amp;sll=34.64,50.876389&amp;sspn=0.405053,0.72715 8&amp;t=h&amp;gl=us&amp;mra=ls&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;ll=45.19153,44.49286&amp;spn=21.1 0256,13.76118">View Larger Map</a></small>


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:37 am:

Hmm try again:
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Qom,+Iran&daddr=Russia,+Moscow&hl=en&ll=45.981 695,46.889648&spn=21.895502,46.538086&sll=34.64,50.876389&sspn=0.405053,0.727158 &geocode=FYCQEAId5U8IAymV4Yy4bruTPzFwRGDCwb41zA%3BFUmRUgMdKfc9AinJsNRz_Eq1RjFMz1 dXzNZEPQ&oq=moscow+russia&t=h&gl=us&mra=ls&z=5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 09:45 am:

Constantine

Siver spray paint, or for that matter "aluminum" spray paint will work, I prefer the aluminum spray. It's the metallic content that does the 'sealing', silicone based sealant isn't too be used in the high heat area of the cyl and block, the silicone will break down over time. The best gaskets are copper (metal) for long term use, 'metal' bearing sealer is what needs to be used. Just helps seal the tiny spots where the block / cyl head and gasket interface.

As for torque... 50lbs. as Royce posted is plenty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:08 am:

I definitely would not use silicone, no matter what temp it said it could withstand. Taxi drivers are also a good source to use to find hard to get items. You may want to go to your embassy or the American Embassy. They have a motor pool and almost certainly have the copper sealant you need. If you explain your mission, they might even bring it to you, help you get your T to their garage for the once over and help you get you on your way after honoring you with a diplomatic dinner. That is what the American Embassy did for the mountain climbing team that came through Karachi on their way to climb K-2. Embassy's are always looking for unique reasons'o have a diplomatic party to justify their existence and their mission. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:10 am:

Uh, Jim, I don't believe Constantine is going to have much luck calling the American Embassy in Tehran. Seems it was closed around 1979 if I remember correctly :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:11 am:

PS The reason I know all this is because I was an American Embassy U.U. Marine Guard for one year in Karachi, Pakistan and for 14 months in Canberra, Australia. Most people don't think of an embassy when they need help, but that is what they are there for. To assist fellow countrymen with problems, when far from home.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:12 am:

Oops. I meant U.S. Marine. Not U.U. Marine :-)...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:20 am:

I believe you are correct, Royce, but there are other western embassies that are still open that could help. Embassies are usually all located in the same area called Embassy Row and in cities other than the capital city (which in Iran, is Tehran) there are usually "Consulates" that do the same thing as an embassy. I was stationed at the Consulate in Karachi as the embassy in Pakistan is located in Islamabad. While there, you might be able to straighten out your visa problem and get an extension to allow for necessary repairs and a little time for R&R. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:24 am:

I get that ya'll are saying he needs silver/metallic type spray paint, but if all he's got is that silicone sealer, will it work for now till he can get on the road?

330C is 626F. Surely the head and block right there don't get that hot? I don't know, just asking. I know it's not the best option but just wondering if that can work as a band-aid till he can get some better sealant. The water temp doesn't usually hit but about 200 degrees F (93.3C), so I would think that as long as he's not losing coolant somewhere else, that high-temp silicone would work for now. Not an expert, just trying to think logically through this.

Good luck Constantine! We're rootin' for you. I wish I knew a way to help more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:27 am:

Silicone sealer absolutely won't work, it won't help, it will likely make the gasket fail very soon.

If the choice were between silicone sealant and nothing I would use nothing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth H. Spratlin on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:28 am:

Roger that, that's exactly what I was wondering. Hopefully he Macguyver something out there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:38 am:

If you have high temp silicone it may be worth a try. The manufacturer does not recommend it for head gaskets but some have used it with good success.

Under Head Gasket will not seal From: http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3696

"I had a couple of head gaskets leak on old stationary engines. Know what I used? High temp silicone sealer on the gasket. I have been running it for 3 years now with no problem. And yes, I do run it until the water steams so it is as hot as it can be. I used the blue silicone on one and the orange high temp on the other. Works great. Steven"

And
"I've also used the blue silicone on many engines including large oil field engines and it has never failed me yet. I have one engine that it has been in for over 10 years now and still no problems. Tom Winland"

Other have used Aluminum or silver paint.

The first choice would be copper gasket spay but sometimes you have to use what you have.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 10:40 am:

Constantine-

Z heads do warp when overheated.

I blew a head gasket a lost water from my 1919 with a Z head a few years ago. I cleaned everything up, checked it for straightness, got a new head gasket and put it back together only to discover the head leaked because it had indeed warped.

I had to take it back off and have the head re-surfaced.

When I put things back together again, it was fine.

Please double check your head for warpage. If you have access to some place where they can re-surface it, it may save you some time and grief.

Good Luck,

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Barker, Somerset, England on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 11:39 am:

This may have been written above, but I didn't see it -
Make sure all your tapped holes are clear and allow the bolts to clamp the head before they bottom. I worked on a friend's 1915 last week, and its bolts would go in about 9 turns after cleaning out(no head). Crud often accumulates in the holes. Then when you tighten up, the head isn't clamped - and the bolts can shear. That would be bad news.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 12:53 pm:

Thanks for your replies.

I will clean the bolt holes again to be sure and also check the Z head again...and check my fingers crossed.

Some people have just given me a new can of made in Iran 'Caspian' brand general purpose silver spray paint. Can doesn't say if it's enamel...I will try to find out.

The jury here seems not to agree about the hi-temp silicon sealer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 01:22 pm:

I know you find yourself in a difficult situation far from home and the tendency in such desperate situations is to take desperate measures, especially if such measures seems to be the only way out and you want to believe it will work, but I still strongly discourage you from using high heat silicone to seal the head gasket. Permatex has the best High Heat RTV sealant on the market and they concur with the crowd recommending against using it on the cylinder head. Don't believe us? Read for yourself. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 01:26 pm:

Constantine

Yes, just use any spray paint with metallic content in the mix, alum is good, that is what is in 'silver' color paint. Enamel or lacquer is ok.

Here is a copper gasket without any 'sealer', or spray, just raw copper. Note the small blow by. And the other copper had a spray coat of aluminum paint, note how places on the gasket show contact with surface of the head and block, some of the paint is gone, some is not,...the object is to 'coat' the metal gasket, so there is a tacky coating of a metallic containing medium that allows the gasket to contact completely with the surface.

Clumpy silicone sealer will make the gasket stand off the block, and decay, and cause a leak.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:01 pm:

Do you have access to a roll of reasonable fine sand paper? Put it on the flat polished granite mentioned above with the sand side up and drag the head on the sand paper a few times. The sand paper marks on the alu will tell you how flat the head is. If not quite flat and without access to a milling machine, perhaps some effort with the sand paper on the flat surface can help? (I know I was able to increase the compression of my 50cc moped with that technique when I was 15, but haven't tried it with a multi cylinder head..)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:23 pm:

Jim and Dan and others above, okay I will try to confirm the paint I have is enamel or lacquer...is these any way I can tell? The spray can says the paint is good for all surfaces (metal, wood, plastic, etc.). If it is water paint and I use it what will happen?

Roger, I had a similar thought but rather than a roll of sandpaper (which I don't have), put a fine layer of engine oil on the polished granite then place the head on it. Think that will work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:32 pm:

Also, how thick should the coating of paint be on the gasket?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 02:45 pm:

Just like you were painting a fender. A light even coat on each side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 03:08 pm:

Okay, after installing and doing the bolts to 50 what's the procedure? How long to wait before starting the engine? How long does the paint take to dry and cure?

BTW the route shown on google maps is not possible as the road border between Russia and Azerbijan is closed. My next country (if I can fix the car and don't get locked up for overstaying my visa) is Armenia, see the 'Route' page on my website.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 03:38 pm:

Spray it onto a container of water. If it floats on top and will not mix into the water, but beads up and floats to the top, like oil, after being stirred, it is solvent based and can be used. If, after spraying on the water, if it will mix in, it is water based and should not be used. Also solvent based has a strong solvent type smell. Water based has a sort of nice aromatic smell. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 03:43 pm:

At the same time you spray your gasket, spray some of the paint on a metal surface about the same thickness you sprayed your gasket and set aside. Check it occassionally and when it is no longer tacky to the touch and you can no longer smell the paint, it is dry. Some paints dry over night and some take as much as a week to dry. Defective paint may never dry. Jim Patrick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 03:56 pm:

Cm, you may want to look the head over real well before you install it in case it is cracked from over heating it. After that install it then add the water, pull the spark plugs in case there is a crack in the head so if water is in the cylinders you do not hydro lock it and ruin rings and babbitt or bend a rod. You could always pull the head on the spare engine if your worried about warpage or cracks.
Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:06 pm:

Constantine,

Go ahead and fire it up. Drive it as far as you need to go today. When it is completely cool tomorrow morning retorque the bolts. Don't torque them again after that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:27 pm:

Constantine

The spray paint on the gasket only needs to be tacky dry...3-5 minutes. You want tacky dry so that little bit of paint goes into the tiny pores or other defects in the metal surface, you don't want the paint totally dry, defeats the purpose of the paint as a 'sealer'.... The paint will seal and dry as the engine heats. Just spray it with 2 coats so all the gasket is covered.

The T gasket has a front and rear, the larger end oval hole for the oval water jacket ports goes to the rear of the block. The smaller one to the front, just flip the gasket over end to end to match the block and head.

Tighten bolts in sequence, so that you spread the load out as you go, begin in the center and go out and end to end alternating bolts as you tighten. Get all snug and then go 30 lbs on each in pattern, and then up to 45 no more than 50 in pattern.




As Royce posted, run it for a day and let cool down and re torque to check, most bolts will still be firm, maybe one or two will turn just a little and snug at the torque max. you use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Woolf on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 04:44 pm:

I learned from my dad that you can use grease to seal the head gasket. He and my family have using it on engines for many years and it has worked very well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 07:49 pm:

Jim Woolf:

My dad taught me the same thing. It supposedly makes it easier to remove the gasket and keeps it intact if you are in a pinch and need to re-use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 11:55 pm:

For forty years, I used head gaskets without any sealer. The only one that ever failed was one I forgot to re-torque. I have recently been sold on the copper sealer, but what worked for forty years should still be good for at least once more. I would re-torque within a half hour (that is me because of the one I lost). I usually run for about ten minutes, then check all bolts.
I had also been told a light spread of axle grease will help a gasket pull down and seal better. But I never have.
I would NOT use any silicon sealant of any sort on a head gasket. My experience with silicon products near any internal part of an engine has been negative.
Good luck to you for the rest of your trip!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 01:34 am:

Constantine, like Wayne I've put several aluminum heads on engines and never used any type of sealant and if there's a chance you can't find any copper or aluminum paint, put the head gasket you've got on and use it. Torque using the tightening order Dan showed you and get out of there as soon as you can. Be sure to retorque the head bolts after running the engine for a while. The aluminum or copper paint is probably the optimum fix but if you don't have it, don't sweat it. Using Dan's tightening sequence draw the bolts down to 25 lb/ft. Then go back and torque them to 50 lb/ft. Really it isn't necessary to run the engine for any longer than what it takes to get it up to it's normal operating temperature. But make sure when you retorque to do it while the engine is hot. A word of warning, don't run the engine too long before you retorque because running the engine and then letting it cool down creates a risk that the head bolts will loosen and it'll be the same as a blown head gasket. Though you may still be able to retorque it then it's still a good idea to warm the engine and retorque it while it's hot shortly after putting the new head gasket in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 01:40 am:

We heard the grease thing for years too.......think about it......what good is grease going to do on a head gasket?
Some diesel mechanics swear by the aluminum paint thing and that, at least, makes sense.
Another engine mechanic friend uses Hylomar Universal Blue which is made specifically for this type of application.
I used Hylomar when I had ANY doubt about a head gasket not sealing and never had anything go wrong either but I doubt Constantine would find any over there anyway.
When both surfaces are known to be perfect nothing needs to be used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 04:13 am:

***UPDATE***

I tested the silver paint by spraying some into a sink full of water...it acted like oil so I think it's okay to use.

I put the Z head on a couple of flat glass surfaces and it seemed warped upwards in the middle, as I could get a feeler in between the glass and the head in that location.

I took the head and had it machined flat.

Urgent Q. Now that the head is a touch shorter how does that change things as far as putting in the head bolts? Should I add an extra washer to the head bolts or do something else?

Thanks.

Constantine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 04:36 am:

Now you will have to fit the head on with several bolts, no gasket, see if the bolts bottom out or tighten, and turn engine over by hand to see and feel that the pistons still clear the head, if they do then bolt it all up with your new gasket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 05:34 am:

Kerry, if the bolts bottom out/do not tighten what then...add an extra washer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:04 am:

Ideally would be to cut the bolts, but as the Z heads are fitted with a washer, a fatter one maybe? two if that's your only option to get you going again, could be a little tricky finding something the right size that fits as the washers on the Z heads are counter sunk in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:19 am:

I've looked and have a spare set of these with me:

Head Stud Washers T-3003-W
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/5316


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:22 am:

Last time I needed to make some washers for a Z head,I just fitted all the washers on a bolt and nut, tighten, then put it in a lathe and turned the out side diameter of the washers to fit.
Cutting a thread or so of the bolts would be as simple as a 4" angle grinder with a cutting disc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:29 am:

CM,
After you mill a Z head you better check to make sure the pistons do not hit the combustion chamber, they are really close already, try it with out gasket to see if pistons touch if not then add gasket, if they do then mill or dremel out some of combustion chamber.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:31 am:

That's what would do the trick if needed, stainless steel ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:33 am:

Only thing about cutting the bolts is that if the Z head turns out to be cracked I will have to get new head bolts as well as a new head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:34 am:

If any of the bolts bottoms out when you try fit without the gasket you can file off the excess length. Don't file off too much - you will want them to use as much of the block threads as possible without bottoming out. One washer per bolt is enough.

If you can't find modeling clay or something equivalent to put on the pistons when try fitting, you can paint the pistons with the silver paint and try fit the head w/o gasket fast while the paint is still wet, (two bolts far apart are enough) crank a couple of revolutions and check if some paint has touched the head. If no contact, you can finish mount the head with the gasket. If there's contact - you'll have to grind some material off the head where the pistons touches. The sound/feel of the pistons touching the head when cranking/testing the fit tells you if it's a lot or just a little grinding needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:44 am:

In your first post you said there was water coming out of three of the cylinder head bolt holes during compression. This escape of cooling water should be stopped before you get under way. Perhaps some of your high temp RTV sealant would help to stop this escape of water, especially driving through the desert as you will be doing. Take A LOT of water with you in any containers you can find. It's going to get HOT! The Lut Desert in the Kermen Province, Iran, is one of the hottest places on earth. Temperatures have been know to get as hot as 71 degrees C or 159.8 degrees F. Hot enough to fry and egg.

As for your head bolts. If they are now too long you might get a little more depth by blowing out the bottom of the holes or, the same machine shop that machined your head should have a bench grinder which can be used to grind a few threads off the bottom of each bolt and recut the threads with the proper die, if necessary. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 07:31 am:

Thanks for your replies.

I will check the bolts and for piston contact. I guess I also use grease or toothpaste on the top of the pistons to see if there's contact then clean it off later.

Jim, wasn't the water coming out of three of the cylinder head bolt holes during compression the result of a warped head and head gasket failure? With a machined head and new gasket I should be okay unless there's something I've missed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 07:35 am:

Yes, Constantine, I bet the water from the head bolts was a result of the warped head/ failed head gasket. Now with a machined head you have a good chance to get a nice working leak free engine again. Good idea with the tooth paste :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:02 am:

Don't use toothpaste because it usually contains very fine alumina powder and is sometimes used as a polishing or lapping compound.!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 11:30 am:

But if it's kept at the top of the pistons only and cleaned off after use I highly doubt there will be any noticeable harm from its polishing properties.

(I use tooth paste with good results to polish scratched cd:s and dvd's)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 12:18 pm:

I would tend to agree with Fred. Toothpaste, if sucked down into the cylinders and engine, with its' fine abrasive ingredients, would be a foreign and possibly harmful substance to an engine, the cylinders and bearings, while, if the grease, somehow got down into the engine it would not be detrimental but would become a part of the lubrication and therefore beneficial. Both being of the same consistency, both would accomplish the same thing.

Jim Patrick

PS. Does Alumina Powder conduct electricity and, if so, could that be a problem for the magneto if it got down into the crank case oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 12:29 pm:

Oh good grief.. people uses valve grinding compound around the cylinders all the time - no problems when cleaned off after use. Now let's talk about the *real* issues Constantine has on his trip - how's your rear wheels holding up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

Roger, you are correct. "People use valve grinding compound around cylinders all the time...", but most people use it with extreme care being careful to remove every bit of it for a very good reason and hopefully, they will never smear it in a big gob up in roof of the cylinder head to determine the clearance of the piston top from the roof, also for a very good reason. I think Fred will agree with me that our concerns with using toothpaste for this purpose is legitimate and warranted. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 12:46 pm:

Alumina is a ceramic material and does not conduct electricity until it gets over 2000 C.
(I learned this the hard way when trying to control a high temp hydrogen furnace with alumina refractory.)

In fact most insulators like you see on high power distribution lines are made of 83% alumina and 16% silica. The remaining stuff is usually magnesium, calcium, etc.

Large grained alumina is used on cheap sandpaper(white-ish or yellow-ish)and many times alumina is found in polishing and buffing compounds.

I wouldn't be surprised if Alumina was the mixed with silica in the course Timesaver lapping compound.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 01:52 pm:

Accidents happen; so okay, I will use grease not toothpaste...I think grease might be easier to clean off anyway.

I know it's not the done thing, but what's your view about adding an extra washer or two to the head bolts if they bottom out now that the head is milled rather than shortening the bolts?

Roger, one of my real wheels is in bad shape plus my front tyres are almost done; bad that's for another post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 02:20 pm:

An extra washer under the original hardened washers would not hurt anything. Even soft hardware store washers will be harder then the aluminum head. I would not add any more then necessary. The last thing you want is to strip the treads out of the block because the bolts were not threaded in far enough.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 05:09 pm:

Before you bolt the head back on make sure that the bolt holes are clean. The best way is to use a tap to clean out the holes. If there is crud in the bottom of the holes and the bolts bottom out the threads can be stripped.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 06:24 pm:

Constantine is one amazing guy. Now we know even in the most remote parts of the world that the Model T Ford is loved and strangers are willing to help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

Constantine

Use some sort of measuring stick into the block head bolt holes, then measure the head thickness or height of the holes from the head to the bottom of the hole of the block. Concern would be if too thick washers are used, you may only have a few threads holding the bolt and you could strip out a bolt hole rather easy at 50lbs.

Don't know if your 'Z' head is the low or high type, both sizes are made, if high, then the bolts used will be the high head length bolts.

When you fit the head first time since miling, lay it on the block without bolts holding it, then hand crank over, to be sure the head does not lift up, if it does, the pistons are hitting, and you will have to grind away some aluminum from the inside of the combustion chamber to make relief.

If no movement, then all is well, and the gasket thickness will assure that the pistons can't strike the combustion chamber.

You are doing all well, and the T should be working for you again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 02:28 am:

***quick update***

Put the head on the block without bolts and gasket. Crank turned engine and the front of the head lifted up. Removed head and saw that comb.chamber no.1 had some carbon buildup in the piston area (I had cleaned the inside of head but not perfectly). Cleaned it out put it back on and tried again. This time the head stayed in place. Not much clearance to say the least, but with gasket it should be okay, yes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 02:56 am:

Great, the gasket should give you enough clearence.

(Dan: I think the true "Z" head is only made in the high type - the low type high compression heads I've seen haven't got the squish area over the piston that makes combustion more efficient on a side valve engine)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 04:21 am:

***quick update no.2***

Cleaned out the bolt holes with coat hanger wire and a small screwdriver then blew them out with a hand tyre pump; lots crud blew out.

I put the head on without a gasket and turned the bolts in by hand without a washer. All of the bolts went down all the way to the head. I guess that means the bolts are not too long; correct?

Of course the bolts will go in deeper at 50Ibs but there will be a gasket and a washer there...not sure if I should add a second washer to compensate for the head being milled...what do you think?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 04:43 am:

I measured the distance from the top of the head bolt hole opening to the bottom of the bolt holes using a piece of straight wire. It is 91mm or 3.583 inch and all holes are virtually the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 04:44 am:

Sounds like you won't need the extra washers, depending on how bad your head was, as a rule only several thou would have been machined off, hardly noticeable but still checking as you go to be on the safe side and all should be sweet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

It is sounding better. My fingers are crossed. (Do you Southerners use that old expression?)
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Friday, August 03, 2012 - 10:47 pm:

***update***

Thanks to the advice I received on this forum and to the help of some very kind people here in Qom the car is back on the road. I drove it to the petrol station yesterday.

I used silver paint on the gasket and only one washer on the bolts and tightened to 50 lbs then started the engine, no leaks. Next day checked the bolts and tightened to 50 lbs. Only issue is I cannot get the torque wrench on to bolt 15 because of the wooden firewall is in the way (Z heads are high not low as original for a 13 T) so I tightened it by a hand wrench...should I worry?

I noticed yesterday when checking the Anderson that the metal rotor flapper is split (but the spring is still okay); I have a spare rotor so I can replace it.

Anyway, today I continue heading north.

Thanks.

Constantine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, August 03, 2012 - 11:16 pm:

There is no need to worry about the bolt tightened by the hand wrench, that's how they were all done back in T times. Where are you now? I am glad to hear you got the car running again.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Friday, August 03, 2012 - 11:29 pm:

Great news,Thanks for the update.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 12:19 am:

Constantine,

I always use a wrench on all the head bolts to be consistent. Torque wrenches were invented long after your car was built. No worries my friend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 03:29 am:

If you like to use a Torque wrenche. You can cut a nut in half and weld together.
Toon
1070R
1072R


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 02:04 am:

Constantine:

You mentioned that you have a bad wheel. I would be glad to mail you some U shaped shims of metal to drive between the end of the spokes and the feloe if you want them at no cost to you. If you can figure a way to get them between the spoke and feloe you would have a wheel as tight as the day it left the Ford factory.
I also have PUSH NUT WASHERS that you could put on the end of you tenons. The trouble with them is you would have take the wheel apart and I don't know how you would press the wheel back together where you are. I would be glad to ship them to you at no cost. Push Nut Washers are soft and would not last you too long but you could finish your trip.

push nut washers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

***Update***

Greetings from Agarak, Armenia (near the border with Iran)! I made it here about a week ago, but I must got a bug from drinking some tap water because I had a fever and upset stomach for a number of days...or was it because I slept in the T in the open my last 3 nights in Iran? Anyway, I feel fine now. The repair I made to the cylinder head seems to have worked.

The mountain road section from where I am to Goris is dangerous so I need to do some work on the T before moving on...change bands, replace the hand brake pawl so that I have a working handbrake, replace the Anderson rotor.


For changing the bands


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 02:01 pm:

Dave, those U shaped shims would be great, but I need to think of where you would send them...although, things have changed. My rear wheels are much much worse now than what they were in Sudan thanks to I think of over a month in a +50C to +60C shipping container. Spokes have started to crack deeply as well. I need to have a good think of whether I can continue with the rear wheels I have.

For changing the bands I think I will remove the hogs head to make life easier...I fear bending the metal bands out of shape...I do not have a spare drum to reshape them. How easy is it to remove/install the hogs head? What do I need to undo first before I can remove the hogs head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 02:45 pm:

1. Take the access panel off the hogshead, get plenty of rags and pack around the bands allowing no gaps anywhere, so that nothing can fall down into the oil pan.
2. Carefully loosen the band nuts, washers and springs and carefully place them where they will not get lost. Leave the bands where they are and tie the ends together with wire.
3. Remove the rags for re-use later.
4. Carefully remove the (4) rear bendix cover screws and put them where they will not get lost as they are very special screws with special threads.
5. Remove bendix spring and gear from the starter shaft.
6. Remove starter.
7. Loosen and remove (2) upper ball cap bolts and loosen lower (2) ballcap bolts so that ball cap tilts back. If you plan on installing the bands from the rear, you will need to totally disconnect and remove the ballcap and wire it up to keep it out of the dirt.
8. Disconnect outside oil line if you have one.
9. Remove wire from Mag post.
10. Unscrew Mag post.
11. Remove all bolts holding the hogshead in place.
12. Depending on how well the gasket was sealed you may need a chisel or putty knife to gently pry the hogshead away from the oil pan.
13. Lift the hogshead straight off.
14. Loosen wire holding band ends together and remove for relining. You can get the bands perfectly circular and can maintain the roundness if you slide them on from the rear over the drive plate shaft.

I'm sure I've forgotten something, but it's a start. Good luck.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 02:47 pm:

PS. You do not need a spare drum to make the bands round. They can easily be bent round by hand and sighted until they appear round to the eye.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 03:20 pm:

A shade tree solution to be able to continue would be some type of epoxi to reinforce the spokes?

Many have used kwik poly and similar thin penetrating epoxis to reinforce soft parts in structural wood - for cracks you may be able to fill with something with a thicker consistency to stop the cracks from growing - spokes will work looser and looser and the wheels will fail unless you stop excessive internal movement between parts of the wheel.

What's available locally - is there anything like a hardware or auto parts store with some kind of two component hardening product on their shelfs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 03:37 pm:

Constantine

Believe your early T doesn't have a stater so removal of Bendix and starter helps to simplify.

And if your T has bands with 'removable' lug ears, you could try the thru the inspection cover route. You might want to try doing it that way. Position the triple gears to allow the bands to slip around and over and out the inspection hole.

Jim listed all the tasks in order, there may be problem in lifting the hogshead off if it hits the exhaust manifold, some do. So you may have to remove the nut exhaust pipe, or just loosen the muffler end, and remove the whole exhaust manifold and shift it to the side. That way you don't have to remove the big nut on the pipe, as without the right tool, that is tough.

Have some kind of wire, or cord or something to hold the bands together prior to re-placing the hogshead, as the bands will spread and flop down into the crankcase. When you lover the hogshead, be sure the clutch U- shape release collar goes into the REAR slot of the release ring.

Drop the cover over the front of the first, having placed the gaskets, then fit the release collar with one hand, holding inside the inspection cover, and lower the back down. Loosely fit some of the bolts to align. But don't tighten the cover yet. Stuff the rags or use Dental floss thru the nuts and lock washers, and fit those on the pedal shafts and you slip the pedal shaft thru the band lugs,....don't forget to fit the springs prior to the nuts going on.

When you have the shafts, springs, lock washer, and nuts on, just loosely, then remove the wire or cord that your placed around the band lugs, as that bit of wire will prohibit the cover from dropping flush. Now you can bolt down the cover, and then do the finish of adjusting the bands.

For the 'non-removable ear' band replacement, by removing the hogshead, here are some tips and guidance from Ford Text book, Automobile Digest 1919.



Note, you don't have to make that slotted screw, that is just a tip...






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:02 pm:

Constantine:

I hope you got my email. I have been having a lot of trouble with my email so I am not sure it went out. If you didn't get an answere to your email to me let me know and I will repeat it on here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 11:42 am:

Dave,

Received your email, thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

Constantine:

Somehow I lost your last email so can not answer it. I have your wheels boxed up ready to ship. I check with the Post Office this morning and told me the box is too large to ship, but I can cut it down and they think it may go then. It weighs 83 LBS which they told me that the weight was OK. I also called the number for Lufthansa that you gave me and they told me that I would have to email an address in Denver for info about shipping with them. I am awaiting an answer from them. If you email me at modelt1912@msn.com I can give you more information.
Way back when I was a teen ager we used to go on very long trips with a horse and wagon. We used to soak the wheels overnight in the rivers but I don't remember it doing much good. I would think it might be good for the first few hours but would dry fast and might even make them worse. Anyway its worth a try but watch the wheels in the late afternoons.

Anyway a lot of us are admiring your spunk to do such a long trip, Keep us informed on your progress.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 01:38 pm:

Constantine:

I think I found your email address. I will try to email you with more information on shipping your wheels. If for some reason you do not get my email let me know at modelt1912@msn.com

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 01:43 pm:

I may have mentioned this before but to swell wood up so it will not dry out again and shrink up, use standard auto antifreeze. Use it straight from the jug without any water added. Probably could just paint or wipe it on and keep it saturated for as long as needed for it to soak into the wood. It works great on wood tool handles and should work just as well on wood wheel spokes.

They sell stuff for wood handles but the antifreeze works just as well and is available most any place.
Jim


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