Not sure what I broke, but it isn't good. After installing the Anderson Timer I took the speedster out to see what it would do on the open road. I had the GPS with me to see what my speed was. Right as I hit 51 MPH, something broke or turned loose or something. I know I know, I shouldn't have kept pushing, but it was awesome going that fast in a T! Won't happen again, that's for sure.
Engine seemed to run a little rougher, but still ran. I took it easy back home, but now it's definitely harder to turn over, and very difficult to start, when I do get it started I get some smoke from the breather where the oil fill is. Once it is started, it runs with kind of a lope. I'm pretty sure it's still firing on all cylinders, but it's almost like the timing between cylinders is messed up. I checked the timer and wiring and pulled the plugs and everything there seems ok. I turned the engine over slowly and verified that all my valves open and close as they should as the pistons go up and down.
What did I do and how do I figure out what the problem is? I have no problems removing and re-installing the head or oil pan or whatever needs to be done, but I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for and unless something is glaringly broken I may not recognize something.
So! Inputs on where to start and what to check to rule things out are welcome. I plan to start the tear down tomorrow after work and will take pics as I go and post them in this thread. Good news is I already have a brand new head gasket and little gasket rings (not sure what the rings are for, they look either valve size or exhaust/intake size, both the rings and head gasket look to be made of copper.
Also, as I turned the engine over and checked the valves, I put my thumb over the spark plug holes and got good pressure on the upstroke and suction on the downstroke.
I don't to measure the pressure in each cylinder right now, but if there is something I can rent from Advance Auto or Autozone I can go that route.
Thanks for any help!
Seth,
You may need to check the timing gear or you may have a old style two piece valve that broke, sounds like something in the valve train. I'm sure there will other folks on here with good suggestions.
Good luck, hope it's not to serious.
Larry
This engine ran about twenty seconds before the shredding fiber timing gear put a stop to it. I can imagine one of these gears losing just enough of one or two teeth to slip one cog and make the engine "run funny". A lot of these things were installed in engines thirty years ago, but they're not being sold now for obvious reasons.
I would tear it down completely for inspection. Check pistons for cracks and broken rings.Make sure no magnets came loose from the flywheel, if you still have the original magneto in the engine. The Model T engine is not designed for high speed so when you push the normal operating envelop you will discover where it is weak.....
Well, surgery is scheduled for this afternoon. I'm going to spend a little while prepping the operating room, but hopefully before bed I'll have all the fluids out, the head, radiator, oil pan, timing gear cover, floor panels, and transmission cover off.
Already got my wife planning on bagging and tagging all bolts and fasteners, wiping down and cleaning everything as it comes off, and most importantly taking pictures so I can post them on here.
Seth---sounds like you prefer "surgery" but you ought to do a compression check andclosley review the timing first. Since it still runs these checks might help you fix a problem without a teardown. Good Luck---Paul
Compression test and pull the generator to check the timing gear. You may need a mirror to see the front side of the gear. Pull the valve cover and check for a broken valve spring.
Roger that, in all honesty, the less I have to take apart the better. If I can get away with just removing one or two things and checking something, or if there are tricks to figure out what's wrong without taking things apart, let me know!
I'm just afraid it's something like piston rings because it's harder to turn the engine over and I get smoke from the breather where I'm burning oil somehow.
It's a '14 so no generator. I'm really not looking forward this because I'm so frustrated about it. I'm just mentally trying to make sure I'm committed to tear down until I get to the problem and fix it.
Smoke, harder to turn, sounds more likely that the crank has grabbed the babbitt!
I don't know your car, but do you have original valves in it? If so, you could have popped the head off one of the valves.
Because you have smoke and it is running rough, and is harder to turn over, I would suspect something wrong with the rings and or pistons. Perhaps a cracked piston. or ring. Smoke from the breather indicates blow by. That is usually caused by the gasses from power stroke leaking past the rings and into the crankcase. That would also make it run rougher. A compression test, or check for oil on the spark plugs, might pinpoint it to one cylinder. Or you could short out the plugs one at a time while it is running and find one or more that don't seem to make any difference when shorted. Anyway that's where I think your trouble is.
Norm
There are only two types of compression gauges which will work with a Model T. One has an adaptor which will fit your spark plug threads which you would probably need to make yourself. The other has a cone shaped rubber tip on it which can be held tightly against the head. Unless your head has modern threads, then the compression gauge you rent could work. Perhaps someone in your local club has one which you could borrow. The thumb method will only tell you that you have compression, but will not tell you how much.
Norm
First, stop running it, even to test it out.
I would remove the head and see how the cylinder walls look and if all the valves look o.k. I kinda think you lost a valve head, (if it's the old two-piece style), or broke a piston, or had a wrist pin come loose, or all of the above, or none of the above. However, won't know till you look and will only get worse if you run it more.
it's also possible that #1 cylinder was starved for oil at the high rpm's and, if she has aluminum pistons, that one got super hot and scored the bore. First step seems to be to dump the coolant and pull the head off to take a look.
How much do you know about your engine? Was it rebuilt? How much was really done? You state all the pistons and valves are going up and down as they should. It could still be a valve spring, but that likely would not send smoke through the crankcase. Timing gear, same thing. Also neither would make it significantly harder to crank.
My guess would be a broken piston or rings or possibly something in the transmission binding. Pulling the head is easy. check for ANY marking on the cylinder walls. Even if there are no marks, it could still be a piston or ring. Pistons and rings can be changed in the car (#4 sometimes depending on speedster firewall).
Also remove the bands inspection cover just to look for whatever you can see.
If your block is a 1914, you should take a few more steps to preserve it. Pre-1916 blocks are getting harder to find and get. And good ones are getting pricey.
And you think never again 51mph? We'll see. I often drive my speedsters over 65mph. But that is why I have an overdrive and vintage better brakes.
Model Ts are truly a horrible disease. But rest assured. This will become one of the tales you will swap around the tour parking lots.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
After you get it 'running right' again it will last longer when you drive in the 30-35 mph range. 50 mph in a T isnt safe especailly with wood wheels.
Have fun
Johns right, Driving a unknown stock T at 50 can be dangerous. The key word here is unknown. Think about this. If I asked you what shape is your rearend in? does it still have babitt thrust washers? or how are those wheel bearings? Are you diving out the last 10% of a 90 year old part? It's a mind set you must have on all the parts of your car. Don't trust what may think is alright you my be wrong. If things go bad at 50 they can go real bad. please don't think I'm picking on you I'm not. On the positive if you can anwser yes to all condions of all the parts of your T and you get better gearing aka 3.1 or overdrive[high rpms are a engine killer} Go for it! Many of my fiends and I have seen way past 50 in a T. It can be done. Good luck
Howdy! So, no more cranking or running the engine. After getting home I only ran it that one time. Had a long talk with the wife and I'm just going to tear down the whole thing and verify that everything is correct and good to go while I root out this problem. Thanks for the responses and help and I'm glad so far my actions match the consensus I'm seeing.
Here's what I know: my great-grandfather owned an auto shop for a bazillion years and grew up working on Model T's. Really wish I could have known him. With his son, my granddad, they rebuilt the engine once in the early 40's and once again in the mid early 70's. My dad was only 9 or 10 but remembers watching them take it all apart and put it back together. My great-g-dad didn't do anything half way. I've had the oil pan off because it was leaking a little a couple months ago when I first started messing with the car. The inside of the block looked pristine and there were dippers installed. I was kind of surprised at how oil was EVERYWHERE. Also, there are APCO spring loaded tie rod ends and radius rod ends, everything on the car is well done.
I'm about to eat dinner and then get after the car some more, the wife will be taking pictures to post on here later tonight. So far I've got the oil and coolant drained, the radiator, carb, and plugs out. I'm about to call Advance and Autozone and see what they have compression tester wise that I can rent. Inspection plates for the valve springs are off and none of the springs are broken. Nicely oiled in there as well. Plan is take lots of detailed pictures so you guys can help point out stuff. =) Which I super appreciate by the way, Model T people are awesome. I hope I get the opportunity to help others out the way I've been helped so far.
As for the rear end: according to my grandfather that got rebuilt as well and supposedly has had the babbitt thrust washers replaced with brass. I'm going to take it all apart and then clean, rebuild, and paint the whole thing. Chaffin's book on front/rear axles is ordered and in the mail. I do know the engine was supposedly rebuilt with high-compression pistons, plus the car is super light with very little body, and I live in a very flat area, so, pending recommendations on the board, I was going to install the high-speed rear end gears that I have. My granddad purchased them but never got around to installing them.
Last but not least I plan on getting into the transmission as well. Only minor problem I'm having with it is that I'm getting a drop or two of oil leaking from the edges where the hogs head seals. Also, reverse is a little loud. Whereas the brake and low and high make zero noise, I get an ice cream maker sound when using reverse. Whew, sorry for absurdly long post. This thread is going to get long before it's all over. Be back in a bit!!
I'll comment on just one small part of all this, the compression gauge. I expect anything you're able to rent or buy will have a 300 psi scale for use on modern high compression engines. With a low compression engine like the T, 50 psi tops, that big a scale may be less accurate and harder to read than one with a shorter scale. I realize that you're unlikely to find just the right gauge on short notice, but for future use you can do what I did. That is watch for pressure gauges at estate sales and farm auctions. I found a 100 psi gauge among my auction plunder and just attached it to the compression tester hardware. The attractive thing about this kind of shopping is that you often find what you want for a dollar or two. Sometimes it just happens to be in a pile of stuff you're buying to get something else.
Reverse makes the most noise because you use it the least, the gears and bushings are not as well rounded as low gear shall we say.
High gear the transmission is not doing anything, so of course it is silent. If you build a T transmission with all new parts it will really howl in low and reverse for a long time.
If you have just a little leakage from the hogshead that is pretty good. Don't tear the engine out of the car just yet. It is probably something simple like a bad fiber timing gear as Steve suggested. Take the timing cover off before you take the engine out of the car. It might be the only issue.
Doesn't sound like a cam gear to me. That wouldn't cause it to be hard to turn over and wouldn't account for smoke from the filler cap. A partially seized bearing however would. A broken valve wouldn't give these symptoms either. You have compression on all cylinders. At least by finger but that's telling. The main stuff it working (pistons, valves ect.) I'd pull the inspection pan down below and start checking there I would not start with the head I just don't see it being there. Pulling the timing cover is no joke and I believe it's unnecesary. Obviously, at that speed you're in high gear and that practically eliminates the trans. You have a good neutral. It's in the motor. How about checking the crank end play with a couple of pry bars? If there's a tight crank bearing you might not be able to shift it back & forth. I'm betting on a bearing. Probably crank.
Being a 14, it should have straight cut metal gears, I've never seen a fibre replacement for them, but being nearly 100 years old anything could have been changed out to later stuff.
My two cents worth: By the time you find and convert a compression tester you could remove the head twice.
As Steve and Royce advise, remove the timing cover first. Then my advice would be the head if you don't find anything there. A broken or burned valve will be obvious as would a broken or burned piston. Look for scoring in the cylinders next.
If the problem is a tight bearing, logically it would be a rod. That can be accessed through the pan inspection cover.
As my Cardiac Surgeon friend says, "If you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebra's"!
Here we go! I'm just going to tear everything on the engine and trans apart as much as possible without removing the engine from the car. I'm just going to verify everything is good to go as I root out this problem. Here is what I found:
On the timer cover it's definitely off center of the cam so that's an issue. I'm going to order the new modern seal as well as the centering tool. Part of the reason it may be off center is the bolt halfway up on the right side was completely gone.
I took the head off and I'm pretty certain I didn't break any valves. However, pistons 1 and 3 are wet with oil on top. Plus, everything inside has lots of chunky little stuff that I think is varnish from the gas tank when I filled up with some ethanol laced gas. It'll all get cleaned and scrubbed off.
I don't think any of the cylinder walls are scored, I felt around all of them and they all feel like glass. You can see the cruddy stuff everywhere. Also going to scrub and clean all the water passage ways. It was running nice and cool but there was still a bunch of junk in there despite vinegar and lots of flushing.
On a positive note it looks like the head was sealing nicely with the gasket. Here's some pics of the inside of the head.
All of the spark plugs look like the one above. None were wet. Going to try and scrub the inside of the head out as much as possible as well.
If ya'll are seeing something I'm not, let me know. Tomorrow after work I'll get the oil pan off and take pics of that as well.
Thanks for any input!
Seth - I'm starting to wonder if you might just have torn an engine apart that was not really in too bad a shape! You didn't say what the timing gear looked like. Is it a metal or fiber gear? Might just have slightly damaged a gear to the point where she just jumped out of time enough to run badly but not so far out of time that it wouldn't run. Of course,....you DID say it's "hard to turn over"! I can't tell you how many times I've "jumped to conclusions" and later found out that problems were not as serious as I first thought! Might be a broken piston (skirt) but then it still might not be as serious as you think. If you tear the engine down much further, you're in for a complete overhaul no matter what!
I did it again Steve (Jelf),.....you already mentioned the possibility of a timing gear problem. I always hate when people spout off about things when they have not really read the whole thread. And guess what? I do it too! Actually though, I think it's more that I'm getting forgetful to the point where I don't always remember all of what I've read!
I haven't taken the timing gear cover off but yet but the gear itself is metal. I've turned the engine over several times and the teeth look ok from what little I can see. that will come off next and then the oil pan. It's not a big deal really, I'm just going to go through the whole thing and then I'll know it's good. The main things that concern me are the burning oil when it was running last and the difficulty to turn it over. We'll see what the babbitt looks like tomorrow.
I agree Harold. I think Seth just wanted a reason to dig in. He's not approaching the problem with any logic or thought as to the symptoms which seem to tell all. He's got a tight bearing. The bottom was the place to start.
Seth Take heed to what Charlie B is trying to tell you about diagnosis. I believe from reading all the posts he has some of the best advice. Its too bad to tear apart a good engine just to have a look see at this point.
Don't forget to get some of the Permatex "The Right Stuff" when you start to put it back together if you don't want any leaks. ALSO since you have the radiator already off, if you see any oil seeping out around the front of the crankshaft install a modern seal to the outside of the engine there. Search for the instructions here how to do it.
Good Luck
Why would pulling the engine apart require a rebuild unless something that was not broken or lost became so in the process? Looking inside should be ok.
Once you pull the pistons out of a worn engine, it's pretty hard to put it back together and expect it to run as before. If the cylinders have any out-of-round or taper (which is almost a certainty) the worn rings will never go back in in the exact position they were and will never seat properly again and you'll have an "oil-burner" and poor compression for sure. Only way to prevent that is a new set of piston rings at least, and even then, new rings won't seat properly in worn cylinders either. You might get away with a bit of taper, but new rings are round and will never seat in out-of-round cylinders, so that means boring out to the next oversize, which means new pistons, and on and on.........well, you get the idea.
If Seth pulls the pistons, he can buy a three stone honing tool fairly cheap and give the cylinder walls a fresh surface together with the new piston rings - and likely better compression than before. But we don't know if it's needed to pull the pistons..
If any of the front bearings gives the trouble, then perhaps the internal oil line is clogged, starving the front of the engine of oil? There are ways to clean it w/o full disassembly, but I think the timer cover, the hagshead and perhaps the large timer gear has to be pulled(?) for a good cleaning with a wire.
Should have been hogshead
I'm hoping I can get away without pulling the pistons. I've been hoping that all along due to the reasons Harold mentioned. I want to scrub all the junk off the top of the pistons and valves and the inside of the head. I'm going to open the bottom when I get home and see if I find my problem.
My gearhead sister is coming to hang out with me so I'll enlist her. Hopefully two sets of hands will make it go faster. I'm really hoping I can get the engine figured out and worst case waiting on a part or two but cleaned up and ready to go back together today.
Saturday I'm going to get the rear axle out from under the car. That'll be a separate thread. I've got the Chaffin book on that coming in the mail.
I would encourage you to only focus on one part of the car at a time so that you don't end up with a pile of unassembled parts that may seem daunting to put back together. It is also easier to debug things when fewer changes are made at a time. Regarding the engine, I would take the inspection cover off the pan and take a look. Hopefully you won't find a broken crank.
Word of advice - index or mark every part you disassemble or remove for orientation, if you intend on reassembling.
Seth,
Email me if you want some help. I can come up there.
Dave
Roger that, I'll see what I find when I get into the bottom. So far it's just going to be lots of cleaning, haven't found what's broken or messed up yet.
Update: I'm home and have the cover off the bottom and the timer cover off the front. Timing gear looks totally fine. However, almost all of the nuts/bolts that held the timing gear on were remarkably loose, almost hand loose. So I'm sure that had an impact on the Anderson timer.
I'll take and post pics of the inside in a minute, but all the babbitt looks okay to me. I'm afraid it's seeming more and more like rings. From what I can see none of the pistons are cracked. I'm going to email Dave and see if he can come look at everything and double check what I think I'm seeing. Also, unless y'all recommend against it, I want to pull the timing gear and run a wire through the inside oil line.
As for the pistons, I'm going to see what dave thinks about the cylinder walls and then look at getting the domed high compression pistons and rings, then at most hone the cylinder walls. I talked to my dad and from what he remembers the car probably has less than 1,000 miles on it since the engine was rebuilt in the 70's. Pics to follow.
Check the conn. rod bearings to eliminate them. You should have some forward & back movement on the crank journals. If one or more won't move their too tight. Look closely at the crank bearings for blueing due to heat. Rings don't generally lock outward or expanded. They break or lock onto the piston in a compressed position. Both are reasons for no compression but you have compression. In fact you have enough compression to start the engine. Neither of the two common ring problems would cause it to be hard to turn over but would account for smoke from the filler pipe. Blow-by it's called. It can be very rythmic. Puffing out the breather as the cyl. fires and the gasses pass the rings and enter the crank case. Just blowing smoke it another matter. A bit is natural. A lot spells heat.
Crank over the engine so that the piston is at the top, and thoroughly examine the cylinder wall of each cylinder. Look for scores running up and down the wall. With the piston down all the way, try wiggling it back and forth side to side. Try a feeler gauge between the piston and cylinder see how much clearance there is.
With only 1,000 miles on the engine since it was rebuilt, this is what I think happened. This would be especially true if you have aluminum pistons. When you were going very fast, the engine got hot and the piston expanded to the point it almost seized. This caused scoring of the cylinder wall. and now the rings do not seat properly and oil is going into combustion chamber and blow by gasses are going down into the crankcase. Unfortunately, after the piston expands it will lose it's oval shape and the sides perpendicular to the wrist pin will now be too loose in the cylinder. It is also possible that one or more rings has broken. You might not be able to detect the problem unless you pull the head. If the piston has collapsed, you will need a new piston, and if the scoring is not very deep or only confined to a small portion of the cylinder wall, you might get by with honing and not need to rebore the cylinder. The new rings will conform to the cylinder and seal in that case.
The water might not have boiled but the tightness was confined to an area below the water jacket. This is the main reason it is recommended that one break in a new or rebuilt engine slowly.
Norm
I was unaware until after this happened that the engine was still so fresh, especially when it was rebuilt 40 years ago. I'll go check for wiggle.
This is the only cylinder wall that has anything remotely visible, and while you can sort of see something, you can't feel anything at all.
Just a guess, but it looks to me thar 1&4 were not firing, or not firing well . The vakves are dark. If firing well they should look like 3 & 3.Im only looking at pictures, but m0st machinery will tell you a story if yuo will look for it.
When I had my engine rebuild about 4-5 years ago with aluminum pistons, I also ran it too fast too soon. I was doing about 45-50 and lost power and pulled to the side of the road. It cooled down and I nursed it home on what felt like 3 cylinders. I pulled the head and #1 piston looked wet and different than the others. I pulled the piston and found that it was scored on one side and the rings were locked in the ring grooves on one side with a small amount of aluminum crossing over them. There were also a few scratches in the cylinder. I lightly honed the cylinder and ordered a set of rings. I couldn't order just one set, but had to order all 4. While I was waiting for the rings, I gently cleaned up the piston where the scoring was, and carefully was able to remove the rings. I then decided, what the heck, and used emery cloth to clean up the side of the scored piston. A fine file cleaned up the ring grooves and I replaced the original rings in the piston and replaced it in the cylinder. I was curious to see how it would run until the new rings arrived. It's been over 4 years, several tours, lots of daily driving, and no oil consumption and runs great! That's just my experience, yours may vary.
It's a Model T!!
Noel
I might also suggest, Seth, that before you invest in domed pistons and all, that you look at the Z-heads. They give more compression and power and may be a lot easier to change than a set of new pistons and rings. Look at the Tulsa website to see the horsepower/torque curves with them and compare to the domed piston approach.
I checked and all the journals wiggle a wee bit back and forth except #4, although looking at it very carefully I think it doesn't wiggle because the journal touches on either side of the crank, so it has nowhere to go.
As for a Z head: I'm just thinking it looks like I have to replace the pistons/rings anyway, but there's nothing wrong with the head. I've read where the Z head is definitely better than the domed pistons, but I can get domed pistons and rings for $155 plus shipping whereas a head is like $350-400ish, and I'll still need pistons. I'm pretty much at a stopping point until I get in touch with Dave and see what he thinks looking it.
Unless I hear way differently from Dave, I'm thinking hone, measure to make sure I get the right size pistons, and then get domed pistons and rings. Also, the engine is turning over easier now, don't ask me why.
Parts I need:
Pistons/rings
Timer cover alignment tool
"The right stuff" Permatex
Modern cam seal
I'm going to check the transmission, but so far that's all I'm thinking I need engine-wise.
You might just have two problems. One being the rings, especially in that cylinder which is lightly scored. Check all the pistons, it is possible they can be used, but the rings replaced. If the clearances between the pistons and the cylinders should be about .006 thousandths. The rings definately need replacement. Black valves could be a result of oil burning, or it could be an ignition or fuel problem. Check the valve lash on all the valves. You might even want to do a little lapping with valve grinding compound just to see how the valves are seating. You most likely won't need to do anything further to the engine which would require pulling it out of the car. When you replace the rings, be sure to check the gap at the ends. If it is too little, they could be expanding too tight against the cylinder walls causing the problem. If that were to happen it likely would not be enough to seize the engine, but it would score the cylinder and ruin the rings.The ring gaps should be .003 for the top ring, .005 for the center ring, and .008 for the bottom ring. Place the rings one at a time in the cylinder without the piston and measure the gap before you install them on the piston.
Norm
If your head is a "low head" you really don't need to raise the compression. It should have 2 horsepower more than the later engines just as it is.
Norm
You haven't found the problem yet. You appear to have 2 cylinders running rich (producing carbon) and 2 running lean (the white or cleaner ones). I don't know where you plan to stop but if you don't check the bearing clearences while it's apart you might be doing this again.
Ok, how do I check bearing clearances? I want to do it right while I've got it apart, so that's why I'm posting all this and asking.
How do I figure out why the cylinders are running differently?
You might find a crash course on Plasti-gauge on youtube. It'll give you an idea on how it works for checking clearences. As far as cylinders runing differently it could be as simple as air leaks at the intake manifold gaskets. More air, you run lean resulting in the white cylinders. The only reason I'm still pushing this is you said it turns over easier now. There are only 2 answers that come to mind: 1, you removed the timing gear cover. Could it be binding on the crank there? And 2: it's cooled down enough for whichever bearing is binding to free up a bit.
Cool, I'll check the manifold and do some youtube and google on plasti-gauge. Thanks.
If it was 1-2 or 3-4 that was not firing well i would guess air leak. But if it was 1-4 that were not firing well could it be the timer was dirty or of center?
You know Seth, the more I think about this the more I think you need some help or another head with a bit more experience. I understand some one has volunteered. If so hold off and wait a bit. Not knocking you at all but you do have a puzzler there and a little expertise won't hurt at all. I just can't see any one pulling a 1000 mile engine apart. It looks well done. Cotter pins in place, ect. and it did take you to 50MPH. (that's another story. I won't go there). "It ran great 'till it quit". Famous last words. It still might not mean a major $ outlay. Right now you're into it for your time and a full engine gasket set. That will change when you find the problem but you may be able to skin the cat yet.
Haha, I knew I needed another head the minute I tore it up or whatever happened. I take no offense, this is all a learning experience.
I mentioned in a post earlier but the timer is definitely off center. One of the bolts to the timer cover was missing completely. When I got the radiator off I measured it and it's off center by at least 1/32 if not more.
I hear what you are saying on not getting into it more, but so far I'm really glad I pulled the head cause the pistons and valves are covered in baked varnish from the gas tank and the block and head need to be flushed and scoured really well because they are loaded with chunky nastiness. I used vinegar and CLR and followed the flushing techniques from the "I really didn't need this" thread and all that was still there.
So! Pending Dave's input this weekend I'm pretty set on honing and new pistons/rings. Also, I played with it some more and I'm pretty sure #4 journal is too tight. I'll figure out how to check the mains and make sure all of that is right. I'll also check and set the valve lash.
Not sure what you are calling baked varnish. Looks like the typical carbon you find in an engine. I see nothing that I would attribute to ethanol gas. The original owners manual had you removing the head periodically to scrape carbon off the head and pistons. What you are seeing is nothing new.
As for your problem, I'm concerned that number 4 is tight. I also would not reassemble without honing and new rings. And that is assuming you find nothing else wrong.
Nice looking set of timing gears. If you do a full rebuild be sure to keep those cast iron gears. They will work fine no matter what you do next.
I am with Charlie, I think you had some kind of ignition problem. I would lap the valves and lash them while the head is off.
Quote: "The ring gaps should be .003 for the top ring, .005 for the center ring, and .008 for the bottom ring."
This isn't quite true, those numbers are for EACH INCH of cylinder diameter.
Quote: "Place the rings one at a time in the cylinder without the piston and measure the gap before you install them on the piston."
Good advice as far as it goes. Typically one would use a piston to get the ring square in the bore and push it down near the bottom where there is less wear in the cylinder. On your engine with few miles on it it may not need to be measured near the bottom but it wouldn't hurt "just in case".
Ken, those ring gaps would be right for cast iron pistons but only around the other way, biggest gap for the hottest ring, top one.
aluminium piston rings, 3thou per inch of bore.
Alrighty! Dave came up and inspected the engine all over and unfortunately found no smoking gun. Everything really checks out as far as we can tell.
Here's the best I can figure and what I'm planning. On the rich/lean issue with 1 & 4 vs 2& 3: Right before I went on my fateful run, I had just installed the Anderson timer. On the roller timer, contacts for 1 and 4 were definitely worse than 2 and 3 in terms of ridges developed. Couple that with the fact that only a few days before the installing the Anderson timer I was running old plastic KW coils and had just gotten freshly rebuilt coils from the Coil Doctor. I think the bad coils had an impact on timer, which wasn't doing too well anyway since the cover was well off center.
Another note: my spark advance lever is pretty loose. I didn't have a problem with the roller timer, but I noticed that with the Anderson the spark advance would slowly push it self retarded unless I held it with my hand. What we think happened was as I was driving and this happened a couple times, the engine probably got hotter than I realized. Obviously not too bad because nothing seized. But, if oil wasn't getting everywhere at that high RPM, something probably got warm and tight.
We'll double check that nothing is too tight when I install the new domed pistons that I'm going to get. That'll take care of the blow-by as well make sure that the journals are ok when they are off and then re-installed. I'll also double-check the new rings before installing them. The head and block surface look great. I'm putting everything I need on order tonight and planning to get it all back together and running this next weekend.
Something to check, maybe someone on the forum has tried to install domed pistons with a low head. Will they fit?
Norm
Seth and all
Thank you for this thread!
The discussions and pictures are a great help in understanding the insides of the T motor.
I actually thought of that. If they don't I have a high head that just needs to be cleaned up a little. I'll make sure both heads are cleaned up and painted and ready to install before the pistons get here. Once the pistons are in I'll set the head on the block without the gasket and make sure that when I turn it over slowly I don't bump anywhere. If it's good to go like that it should definitely be fine once the gasket is on.
Seth,
As to rich/lean cylinders, based on colors of carbon, don't overthink it. Many folks get excited over varying colors on valves, pistons, spark plugs & cylinder heads. I've never had a T engine apart yet that didn't have these variations. As long as it runs smooth, doesn't burn too much oil and has good compression ignore the colors.
You mentioned the engine became hard to turn over after your incident. Once it cooled down was it still hard to turn over? Is it hard to turn now? If it is, check for a tight wrist pin in one or more pistons and look for piston scoring. You might also try disconnecting one rod at a time until you find that the engine has loosened up. If it's loose now, I think you just got a fresh engine, which still may have been a little tight to begin with, a little too warm and thus, a little tighter still. Not that uncommon.
Go with domed pistons of you like but, if it were my car and it could already do over 50, I would leave it alone.
I've sort of lost track after reading all of the posts here but thought I'd toss my nickel in too. My neighbor had a T that started running rough and all the in car issues were dealt with and determined the engine had to come out. Interestingly enough the issue also came after an over speed run and wound up being loose rivets on the output shaft to brake drum. Unnerving to think what would have happened if it failed completely.
Howdy Jerry, that's basically what Dave and I came up with. My dad says I've probably driven the car more in the last month than it got driven since it was rebuilt and I barely burned more than 2 tanks of gas in it. I'm not too worried about the rich/lean cylinders. Mainly I think I traced the cause and it shouldn't be an issue going forward.
Even though it was 40 years ago, the rebuild is so fresh it probably just was a little too much too soon. As for tightness, it's easy to turnover now except for 1 specific spot. I don't remember which stroke or where exactly the pistons are, I'll look again and update when I get home, but I can find a spot where it gets a little tough and sort of sticks, but then it'll turnover 360 degrees and I'll glide right past that spot until another full turn and then *bump* I notice that spot again. The only way to find it is to turn the engine over very smoothly and gently without much pressure. Otherwise you push right through the spot and it isn't noticeable.
Oops, forgot, once I get the engine done I'm going to immediately start on the rear-end. Mr. Chaffin's book should be here any day. Hopefully by this weekend I'll be done with the engine and getting the rear-end out of the car. The rear-end will get put back together with the high-speed gears. Eventually I'd like to get a Chicago or a Warford so I'll be ok if I ever have to climb some hills.
Not personally wild about "hopping it up" but at least you'll be pulling the rods. Hopefully that + proper shimming will get you straight.
I think you nailed the problem. The timer was off center which made 1 and 4 misfire. You also got too hot and it was almost ready to seize, but turned off before it did seize. I personally don't like the idea of domed pistons, I think if you want to raise the compression you should use a high compression head. However, the low head is already higher compression than the high head. Driving the T over 50 is too fast anyway. It was not meant to go that fast. You might get by with it for short distances, but not for any sustained distance. I do go as fast as I can go when on the interstate, but I travel less than one mile on the interstate, and then only very rarely. I do this where I need to cross a lake and no local roads cross. I get on at the last entrance before the lake, and exit at the first exit after the lake. Of course, the bridge is level crossing the lake. The engine and transmission were not designed for high speed travel nor was the suspension, steering, brakes and wheels. You are asking for trouble going fast. About 35 is a good cruising speed. As to the timing rod. Check the spring at the base of the steering column. It could be weak. Or the notches on your quadrant could be worn. The rod should stay at any place you leave it. Good luck with your T.
Norm
Seth,
If and when you add a Chicago or other transmission that has an overdrive in it you will want stock gears or maybe a 4 to 1 ratio. In a speedster or similar lightened and hopped up T, high speed gears in a Ruckstell work well or an aux trans with overdrive and stock or lower gears work nicely. Overdrive with high speed gears is useless unless you have LOTS of power and a long straight flat road. I have a Chicago and stock gears at the moment in my speedster - overdrive at about 1850 RPM gives me 60 MPH. Overdrive with 4 to 1 gears (my first preference) gives 60 MPH at 2000 RPM. IMHO, that is plenty fast enough to justify some serious improvements in suspension, steering, and brakes.
Walt
Seth,
I will drive my speedster fairly quickly (60, maybe a bit better on the right roads) but then I have lowered the chassis, added 4 wheel brakes and shock absorbers, and replaced the stock steering with a more modern worm gear unit. To some folks, it's no longer a T but I like it and feel relatively safe with the car. I know it can bite me if I don't pay attention but it is my responsibility to control the car and my right foot.
I hope you enjoy your T safely. They are tons of fun.
Walt
Seth, sounds like you might be a good candidate for an E Timer. The Anco doesn't tolerate being off center. This is does not affect the E Timer.
Seth,
If you have a tight spot, then can turn the crank 180 degrees and not have it, then turn it another 180 degrees and have it again, that would point to a valve train problem. The cam shaft turns at 1/2 the speed of the crank, which means the crank makes two revolutions to one revolution of the cam shaft. I don't know what you have for a cam or cam bearings, but the thrust surface on the earlier style front cam bearing does not go all the way around the bearing, only half. I would take a look to see which cam bearing you have and if the front cam lobe is hitting the bearing causing the binding. If not, I would look to see which valve is opening at that point and investigate that further.
Dave S.
I bet that the time and gasket material necessary to correctly align the front timing cover is much cheaper than buying an E-timer, especially in an engine with a functional magneto. That is like cutting the leg off and putting on a prosthetic leg instead of fixing the broken toe.
Noel
Thanks for everyone's input. I really do try to take everything into consideration. I'm going to stick with the domed piston route for now, since they're already in the mail. However, I'll hang on to my regular pistons if I decide that it seems worth it to get the Z head.
As for the auxiliary transmission, I guess I just had it backwards in my mind as far as having higher speed rear end with the transmission to bump it down lower. If the Chicago or a Warford does overdrive, then when the day comes that I get one I'll swap the read end gears back. I definitely won't have the $ for an extra transmission any time soon. I like the Chicago because it seems a little less common, but I saw where there's a newer Warford that will let you shift on the fly no matter what, so you can't get stuck in neutral, THAT seems really cool. I think it was in an older post on the message board with Frank and his blue #22 speedster.
I like the idea of the E-timer, and I like fussing with the car. But, that's just a step too far for me personally. Everyone has different levels of acceptable mods for their T. So far I'm liking that other than the hotshot battery, there's really nothing on the car that wasn't available to my granddad in the 40's. Not bashing the E-timer, I think it's a great mod and works well for folks, but I like my clicking while I'm driving. =) One of my favorite things is that in driving a T you're so much more involved with the machine.
On the tight spot, here is what is weird: it's not 180 degrees, then another 180 degrees. it's every other complete revolution. So every 720 degrees is where the tight spot can be found. I'm thinking it's something to do with #4 being the only journal that doesn't wiggle. I got all the valves lapped and #2 out before the wife said it was time to come in. More tomorrow!
Is there anything caught in a tooth of the cam gear?
Seth,
Sorry, I meant to say 360 degrees in my last post. The crankshaft will turn 360 + 360 = 720 degrees for each 360 degrees of camshaft rotation. So I still think your tight spot is related to the valve train.
Dave S.
I'm 99% confident there's nothing in the gear teeth but will double check to be sure again. Also, I'll see if I can isolate maybe a specific lifter. I just lapped all the valves and they all moved in and out fine, they weren't tight where they were hard to move but didn't jiggle either. I've looked and all of the lobes on the cam look good, maybe a lifter is sticking a little for some reason.
The new Warford is probably an excellent transmission, never heard any complaints but it is rather spendy in comparison to the vintage transmissions. Big advantages to the new ones are certainty of being able to shift and they are new so you don't need to worry about what is badly worn and may not be readily available. Personally, I like the vintage ones.
I use a Chicago and don't usually have a problem shifting it on the fly but it does take some practice and downshifts aren't always easy (my experience). In any case a foot feed sure makes shifting on the fly easier. Make sure you have brakes at the wheels regardless of what aux transmission (or Ruckstell) that you ever add.
Do you suppose it is the timer? It turns once per two crankshaft revolutions. If it is off center, it could be tight in one spot. Other thing could be one valve spring stronger than the others. If you were to pull the spark plugs and look down into the cylinders when you are cranking over the engine, you might notice that it is happening when one of the valves begins to open it binds up. Also take off the timer and note the position of the roller or brush and see if something is happening there. I don't think it is a problem with the crankshaft or the pistons but think it is related to the camshaft.
Norm
Right now the engine is still like the pics above, head is off, timer and timer cover are off. Waiting on parts to arrive. I was playing with it a lot last night and if it's the valves, it's when the intake on 4 and the exhaust on 3 are open. I just lapped the valves the other day and none of the springs felt abnormally strong or weak. None of the valves had any trouble moving up and down. If there is something sticking, it's one of the lifters. If I can borrow the tool from Dave today, I'm going to check and set the valve lash.
What actually holds the camshaft in place? How hard would it be to pull it and check that each of the lifters is moving freely? I can see the oddly shaped nut that holds the timing gear on, and I don't have a problem removing that and then turning the engine to the right spot to remove and replace the timing gear in exactly the same spot, but what's on the backside of the camshaft?
You don't need to pull the timing gear to pull the camshaft - just unscrew the two set screws on the side of the engine that holds the front and mid cam bearings in place, pull the valves and hold the lifters up high with clamps - or with pins through a hole in them if they are solid lifters and have holes - then you should be able to pull it out as an assembly together with the bearings
I may have thought of another type of vehicle when I wrote about solid lifters with a hole for hanging them out of the way of the cam? Well, sometimes clothespins are enough to hold the lifters while the cam shaft is pulled. If the engine is out of the car it's easiest to turn it upside down on the engine stand
If you are able to hold up the valve lifters as suggested above, maybe you should raise them and then before pulling out the cam, give it a spin and see if it is still binding up. Next, pull the cam forward enough to clear the timing gear and spin the crank again to see how freely the crankshaft turns. That way you will know for sure whether the binding is in the crankshaft or the cam shaft. When you put everything back be sure to remember to line up the timing marks.
I like to take things a step at a time before jumping right in and taking things apart. That way I am more likely to find out exactly where the problem is and not fix everything that is not broken.
Norm
Thanks Norman! That's why I'm asking. I only ask about taking it apart because I don't know any other way to do it. I'll do exactly what you're you're talking about today when I get home.
Alrighty, I checked the lifters and no issues there, everything is moving nicely. The last thing I'll check that it could be is the pistons. I'm waiting on borrowing a valve lash setting tool, hopefully tomorrow, and then once that is done I'll be able to get the new pistons in. They came in the mail today and look awesome. Pretty much everything else is ready to put back together once I get the valve lash set and the cylinders honed.
Did you check the front cam bearing?
Dave S.
Seth: Curious. Are the rods out? Is the tight spot still there if they are? You're saying the cam & bushings are OK?
I'm late in mentioning this. You can open the valve with a valve spring compressor and then insert a piece of wood such as a length of dowel between the valve head and valve seat to hold the valve open. Then a clothespin will hold the lifter up.
I think Dave S has a point - if you have a reground pre 24 cam shaft, the front cam bearing need some help in controlling the fore and aft movements of the cam. Maybe the front cam lobe digs into the cut out on the front cam bearing once per turn of the cam?
Chaffins sells a set of washers to serve as thrust washers to be placed on the funny shaped timing gear nut, place as many as will fit with some tolerance to the timing cover. (You may be able to source thin hardened washers locally?)
I left the rods in, I just lifted the valves and used some little dowels to hold them open. Each of the lifters moves up and down by hand without any trouble. I got the bolts out that hold the cam in place and started to pull the cam out, but I can't get it out until I get some clothes pins. I don't have any way to hold the lifters up and had no extra set of hands yesterday.
Once I get that out I'll take pics of the cam bearings.
Roger, just to clarify because I'm confused, if the front cam lobe that actuates the exhaust valve for number 1 is digging into the front cam bearing, how will washers behind the timing gear nut help keep the whole assembly riding further towards the rear of the car? I mean, at this point I don't know that is real problem, just wondering. I'll get the lifters up and figure this mess out.
With the valve lash tool in hand there should be much accomplished today!
You can tell if the cam has been ground with out pulling it out, looking at the first lobe that runs against the front bearing, if the heel of that lobe is still larger than the cam diameter, then it will not need the thrust washers, if fitting the thrust kit for a ground shaft, that go's between the front timing cover and the cam gear.
Seth, you don't place the washers behind the nut, they go on the cylindrical part of the nut and act as a thrust bearing towards the timing gear cover - thus preventing the forward motion of the cam shaft. This is a bigger problem on reground cams where little is left to act as a thrust forwards towards the bearing, but Ford still recognized the problem in 1924 and made the front cam lobe longer so the cam bearing could be made shorter without a cut out in the thrust surface.
Gotcha! I was definitely stumped there for a minute. It's so frustrating hearing what I need to do when I'm away from the car. I end up making a list to take back to car with me. Half the time I end up with the Macbook out on the seat while I'm fussing with the car. Lol, SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) has been a bit threatening after seeing some slightly greasy fingerprints on the mouse pad.
Seth - Just blame the mouse with greasy fingers for the fingerprints.
Seth, interesting thread. My 2c looks like one issue your timer cover was too loose, causing ignition problems. IDK about the tight spot on the rotating equipment. Like was advised need to determine if valve train or crank/piston/ring related. Like was said the top end looked ok just clean carbon.
BTW, you need a cheap shop laptop to keep SWMBO happy!! My wife would not let me near her macbook.
LOL. I should have the answers today. I'll get the cam and bearings out and see what's happening there. Also, assuming I don't have any issue with the cam, bearings, or lifters, I'll seth the valve lash and get the new pistons in tonight. I'm really hoping I find it by then because I'm loathe to think it's the crank/mains.
Houston we've found the problem! Well, one of the problems anyway for sure. I got the valves lifted up and clothes pinned the lifters and pulled the cam and my front cam bearing is definitely loose and jiggly. Especially compared to the nice middle bearing that rotates freely but doesn't jiggle. Also, the front cam lobe for the exhaust valve on #1 is rubbing just a little against the front cam bearing. Wife has the iPhone or I would've taken pics. Also, I couldn't completely remove the cam with the timing gear on. The timing gear hits the front nut and bolt on the frame that holds the crank in place. This tilts the whole cam shaft and upwards just enough that the middle cam bearing doesn't want to come out. I'll be able to get it out easy peasy once I take the timing gear off. It's definitely the issue though. It's possible it's not the only but I'm pretty sure that is what is causing the tight spot. I definitely need a new front cam bearing and maybe the camshaft thrust kit. I'm about to get on the horn and get those ordered. Whew, this has been an ADVENTURE.
That's good news. It might have saved you from a breakdown somewhere on a tour. The front bearing is the one which gets the most wear because of the timing gear. It will also save your timing gears. More gears wear out because of bad bearings.
Have fun with your car.
Norm
Seth, is that bolt in front wrong way up? One is supposed to point down.
Howdy Doug, not sure which bolt you mean. If you'll count the pictures from the very top of the thread and tell me which picture and then which bolt exactly you are asking about I'll check it.
Thanks for all the help from everybody. I'd have probably never found this issue were it not for the suggestions on the board.
The bolt directly under the timer when installed should be face down with the nut underneath. Hopefully that makes sense.
The bolt under the timer should be far away when the timing cover is off and the cam shaft is being pulled? Seth talks about a bolt holding the crank in the frame - got to be the old style front motor mount/spring clamp? I haven't tried to pull the camshaft with the engine in the frame, didn't think there would be any problems? (I have the newer small front motor mount on my T's)
Seth,
Just for clarification; The coil points do still operate, click/buzz, very similar to stock operation with the E-Timer. The only things that do stop are the continuous wear and maintenance of coil points, timer contacts and spark timing restrictions imposed by the magneto. The need to operate the spark lever only stops if you want it to; Automatic Timing Advance is easily turned off.
Unfortunately, you may have been swayed by myth and misinformation propagated about the E-Timer on this forum by folks ignorance that supports their particular views and helps impose those views on others.
The absolute best ignition system to run in your car is the one you decide to run and enjoy using, hopefully though, your decisions are based on fact and not swayed by BS.
Good luck with your engine repair.
Doug, there are two bolts under the timer, one to the right and one to the left. You can see in the picture that the bolt on the right has the head on top and nut on the bottom. I guess the left one is more directly under the timer, but that one as you can see is was installed with the head of the bolt on the bottom and the nut on top. Are they all supposed to be facing a specific direction besides the one you mentioned? I can fix that no problem when re-installing the cover. Sadly ALL of the timer cover nuts and bolts were comically loose.
Roger: that's correct, it's the combo motor mount/spring clamp. I've got the timing gear off and everything slid out like I expected. I wish I could post pics but there is a very clear little spot where the front cam lobe was rubbing the cam bearing. Once I got it all apart and looked at it I was thinking, "Well it doesn't get much more obvious than that." Also, with the cam completely out I've rotated the crank and it turns smooth as glass. I expect it to do the same once I get this new cam bearing and cam shaft thrust kit. It's next day air so supposedly it'll be here tomorrow some time. In the mean time I'm going to get the other pistons out and cylinders honed.
That's cool Mike. I've tried not to get sucked into any misinformation, but I was unaware of those features you mentioned. As I've had my Anderson timer and Coil Dr. Coils for less than month, and only really driven with them one good time, I'd like to get my money's worth out before I swap to something else. =) Thanks for the input though. It's definitely something I will consider in the future.
Yes Seth, flip it over when you reinstall. Just the one under the timer. The timer wire can touch it otherwise when advanced.