Upon retirement in December, I am looking to restore a Model T. I found a nice one, a Canadian one, and I am perplexed as to what the difference is. Any thoughts?
It is a '19 Touring that seems to be pretty solid from photos. Before I get really serious, I want to be sure there are no negatives with it being Canadian. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
~ Thomas
Thomas,
Big difference is the "Made In Canada" on major parts.
Major things I've noticed are:
- Tourings and Runabouts have a driver's door - because that way the body can be used on a LHD or RHD car.
- The front and rear tires are the same size, 30 x 3-1/2.
- It's called "Model T, eh?"
Tom
Suburban to Walkerville, Ontario
Buy a couple of Robertson screw drivers
Is that what those weird screws are called?
Canadian Ts are still Ts. Maybe even more interesting.
If your in the states, then buy it. They are always good for some conversation and you can point out the differences to others too.
Ours is a 1925ish, but it has a '20 engine in it. As stated, they have a drivers side door---which is pretty much useless unless for a left hand drive car, but it's still neat. Also, my block and head, intake and exhaust manifolds along with some other various parts say "Made in Canada" on them. I have also noticed my car is double drilled on everything, obviously this was to make it easier to bolt right hand drive stuff in for shipment to other countries that "drive on the wrong side of the road", LOL.
Also, most that I know of (including ours) have 21" wheels, not the 30" as stated above. You will often find too the earlier cars (around 19-21, often show parts used that were not used in the states untill later. Mine is not really the case on that though, probably because it's a later model.
Ours was a touring that got cut at the back door hinge area and made into a pickup.
Bringing a car across the border can be fun too, but don't let it scare you. I don't know if I still have the form# I needed to get at the border crossing, but you have to have it and have them fill out a portion of it. Due to the age, you don't need to get a letter from the manufacture stating the vehicle is acceptable for use and meets safety standards in the states. Honestly, I was well informed with what I had to do and actually had to tell the people doing the paperwork what to do.
One of the main things that is different is the windshield. Both the top and bottom frames swing(open and close). They are hard to find ( in the States) if need to be replaced. Took me 3 years to find a good one for my 25 RHD Roadster pickup. Dan
Thomas,
If you desire to make the car into a good driver it does not matter which country the car was manufactured in. Most of the USA and Canadian parts interchange and function fine. The same engine and transmission rebuilder uses the same tools to overhaul an engine assembled in the USA as they would use for an engine and transmission assembled in Canada. The wood kits for the 1915-1920 straight windshield tourings and roadsters are basically the same for either country (exception you need the mirror image to the USA right front side to use for the left front side of the Canadian cars that had the door. Those kits & plans are available. ) The few unique Canadian items such as the horn button on top of the steering wheels starting somewhere around 1920 can easily be found or replaced with the USA version that mounts on the side of the steering column. The slant windshield that would not be on a 1919 but was introduced a little later in Canada production and not until the 1923 year model cars for USA production can be replaced with a USA slant windshield and it functions fine. The lower window frame will not swing open – but for a driver it doesn’t really matter. And again for a 1919 it would have the straight windshield posts and not the slanted ones. The Canadian cars in general continued to have more wood in the bodies than the similar USA cars from 1915 to 1925ish. But it is not an issue.
Many folks mounted the later 21 inch balloon tires on Ts because the tires ride better and again for a driver any matching set of wheels & tires works fine (be sure you have a spare to fit them). But originally the 21 inch balloon tires were not offered by Ford USA or Ford of Canada until sometime during the 1925 model year [which in general started earlier than the calendar year – just like the 2013 cars will be on sale shortly – long before Jan 1, 2013.] And from 1909 to the 1924 models all the Canadian produced Fords came with the 30 x 3 ½ clinchers on all four wheels/tires.
If you want to keep and/or bring the car back to as close to the way it left the factory as possible, then in general it is easier to obtain USA parts than Canadian parts. They made more of them, there are more reproduction parts for them, etc. But if the car has the hard to find parts – then that is not really an issue either.
You mentioned this will be your first T. Because of that there is a good chance you do not know the difference between how a 1915-16 or 1917-1920ish, or a later slant windshield low cowl, or the 1924-25 model year high cowl, or the 1926-27 improved Fords. I surely didn’t before I started studying about them and discovered there were others styles than the three in my Dad’s garage. An excellent source of information on the USA produced cars is Bruce McCalley’s (RIP) “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” available from his wife – see the contact information at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/303050.html While it covers primarily the USA cars and parts – it also has a few sections on the Canadian production. If you post and/or send a few photos and I'll try to post them for you -- of the side view, radiator front axle and cowl, inside dash area, etc. the folks will be able to help you quickly date the car to a general period.
If you are anyone else would like a copy of Kevin Mowle’s “Only In Canada- eh” article about the differences in the 1920ish Canadian Fords please send me an e-mail with your e-mail address and I will send you a copy. Our club allows us to share articles like that for free to help promote our club and hobby. They were originally printed in the “Vintage Ford” which is also a great resource and available on CDs from the vendors as well as the club. They have a couple of Canadian articles – but again predominantly USA cars.
You did not ask, but it is offered for free and perhaps worth almost that cost. In general it is more rewarding to purchase a drivable Model T and enjoy it while you work on it rather than purchasing a project that you cannot drive. Also it is normally less expensive to restore the “driver” than it is to restore the major project. There are several posting addressing that see Stan Howe’s posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/174485.html?1291737258
Old Cars can be a lot of fun and as you start to look for a Model T to purchase one of the things that can be helpful is to figure out what would you like to do with your car?
Some folks want a car to take the kids or grandkids for rides down to the Dairy Queen and in that case unless there is only one kid, having a Model T with more seating is better than having a speedster, roadster, or roadster pickup that only has a seat for the driver and one passenger. And with most kids and ice cream a “driver” rather than a show car makes for a better trip to-from the Dairy Queen. Of course you can take the show car to Baskin Robins and eat the ice cream inside rather than dripping on the car, but how do you want to use the car?
Some folks want to have a show car that is absolutely correct down to the last nut and bolt and they trailer it to shows, win trophies, and keep it looking brand new. At least one person did both. They did all the research to make the car as correct as possible and they won the prestigious Model T Ford Club International (MTFCI) Stynoski Award and then took their national wined on all the driving tours! See http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/59900.html for a sometimes passionate discussion about why some folks don’t like judging and others do like to have the cars judged. If you want the judging route – be sure you have the unique Canadian items.
Some folks want a car to work on – and a Model T like many other older cars can be maintained and fixed without having to have a computerized analysis gadget. As a teenager I messed up my Dad’s 1918 engine so I had the opportunity to overhaul it. It isn’t that I was that smart, but rather the engine and car in general is very simple to work on. You can change the spark plugs with a large crescent wrench. And if farmers without any formal education or training in mechanical things could maintain them … they probably can be maintained by someone today also. And they can make a great Father son or Father daughter project see: http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2007/04/01/hmn_feature13.html or Grandfather and grandson etc.
Some people buy and sell them to make money (I would recommend the later muscle cars for that venture) or they sell parts for the old cars as a business. Most are good folks and many of them started out as a hobbyist and it expanded for them (such as our major vendors Langs, Snyders, Smith & Jones etc.). Most still do it because they love the cars and people. As with any group of people there are always a few who make the rest of us look really good in comparison and so far I only have one antique car dealer (located in Canada) that I strongly steer people away from.
Some folks want an old car because it brings back special memories to them. That is my primary reason for being involved see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/10844.html
And what speed do you want to drive and what traffic conditions? There is a good thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/29715.html that discusses the Model T compared to the Model A. Both are nice antiques and I solved the issue of which one to have by having one of both.
Visiting some of the local clubs can be extremely helpful. They are listed at: http://mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm and also http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=15
Again, it depends on what your purpose for the car will be. If you want a driver to have fun with – just using the parts that are on it no matter what year as long as they work safely is often done. For some of us – we don’t plan to show our cars but we would like to keep it a close as practical to the way it would have been when it was produced. I like to point out that it doesn’t cost any more to restore the 1915-early 1916 rear end than it does to restore a late 1916 to 1927 rear end. So why not swap the one that is not correct for your car for one that would be and restore that one? That is just my approach – your mileage may vary. And of course those going for the Stynoski type award will go to great lengths to obtain the correct original part or even have a new part made that is correct for the year of their car. The good news – any T is a lot of fun to drive. And caution – they didn’t have OSHA back in 1909-1927 so any T can bite you if you don’t find out some of their known safety issues (such as forgetting to retard the spark lever and pushing down on the crank handle in front will usually give you a broken arm if the cylinder fires). You can avoid that one by purchasing a T with a starter – but it isn’t really needed. I’ve played with Ts for 50 plus years and while I have forgotten to retard the spark lever and had it back fire. I fortunately did remember to always pull up on the crank and not push down on it. So when it back fired the crank was pulled forcefully out of my hand and continued to spin while I looked in shock at the car. My arm was a little sore the next day – but none the worse for wear. I retarded the spark lever and the car started right up. And there are still some nicely preserved mostly original Model Ts available. They do not come on the market every day, but if they have survived unrestored this long, the folks realize they have a special car and usually keep it as an unrestored car.
And like many hobbies – you can purchase the most expensive gear and then discover you don’t like playing the guitar, or tennis, etc. Or you can purchase entry level equipment. I would suggest starting with a good drivable 1917 – 1925 Model T (not the TT which is the truck – they are really really slow compared to the same engine and transmission in a T). Those years tend to be the least expensive although one a few years either side of that could also work well for you. If you will ever be driving north to a colder climate you may want to consider a closed car – as it extends the driving season.
Joining/visiting the local T folks will help you a lot. Often times they will know of a good T coming up for sale (they will also know when a bad T is coming up for sale and will let you know what is wrong with it).
Some postings that have lots of details on some of the differences between USA and Canadian cars see:
US/CA Diff differences
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/18016.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/17189.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/38245.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40825.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31484.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/39491.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/19254.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/30960.html
http://www.modeltforum.org/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config_512.pl?read=110102
shows Canadian horn button on Factory photo – the rest of the post is about something else.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8662.html the Canadian 21 inch split rim
http://www.modeltforum.org/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config_512.pl?read=105053
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/121088.html?1263563059
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/261444.html?1327112194
Welcome aboard – I suspect you will soon find a good fit for you and what you desire to do with the car. Also club wise the South Carolina Model T Ford Club makes a drive into Georgia about once a year. We have several members from there.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Thanks guys. All of this is very helpful.
Thomas
One of the original postings about the differences in the Canadian cars and USA cars that I liked is no longer up on the web. So I am reposting the information here. I wanted to offer a few links with additional information about Canadian Ts. You may have to “cut and paste” the links into your browser – but normally you can just click on them. They all worked as of 7 AM today (Aug 3, 2012). I think you will find them helpful.
See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/38245.html?1193944526 for info on other items with Made in Canada.
See: http://www.modelt.ca/ takes you to Frontenac Motors which has some good info and pictures on the Canadian cars.
Some info on the Canadian top bows for the 1917-1919 tourings see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/48615.html?1203720762
Kevin Mowle's article on Canadian Ts shipped to South Africa is located at: http://www.dyna.co.za/cars/ford-history.htm Kevin also published an article on the 1920-24 or so Canadian tourings and I’m 90% sure that is on the MTFCA CD collection.
Thread that basically says for a 1916-1918ish Canadian T, a light switch to the right of the coil box and the USA style 1915-early 1917 horn button mounted on top of the steering column (NOT the steering wheel) would be correct for 1916-1918ish Canadian Fords. When did they switch to the horn button on top of the steering wheel? How much overlap when both styles may have been used? If anyone has additional information on that please let us know. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/17112.html and related: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/17189.html (repeat from above but listed here under the 1916 – 1918ish horn button because it is really good information – for those of us that like that sort of information)
Where to get the square drive screws that were used on the Canadian cars and the square drive screw drivers: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/9515.html
Foothills Model T Ford Club – Calgary: http://www.foothillsmodeltfordclub.com/index.htm
Scroll down on the next one for pictures of different Canadian hubcaps: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/18016.html (repeat from above but with a subject so you know what you are clicking on).
Respectfully re-submitted,
Hap Tucker 1915 cut off