Mack Ave plant

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Mack Ave plant
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 05:34 am:

I've been looking on Google Earth for the 4 sites of the various Ford sites in Detroit. I have them all except Mack Ave.
I have 2 addresses, "688 - 692 Mack Ave" and "Mack Ave next to the Beltline Railway"

688 - 692 Mack Ave places it adjacent to I-75 Frontage Road but no railway.

The railway line is down at No 1900 Mack Ave.

Can anyone tell me if a railway line has been ripped up or has the street numbers been changed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:37 am:

Here's a Map I started on that you may find of interest.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=213487298226054853237.0 0049d4d7b95d4721f6d8&ll=42.358159,-83.200745&spn=0.001954,0.004823&t=h&z=18

Detroit changed their street numbering system in 1923, so if you're using the original street address it likely won't match with what's there today.

It's worth noting the original Mack Ave. plant burned in 1941, the building that was built in it's place also burned in 2003.

The site of the Malcolmson Coal Yard where the incorporation papers for Ford Motor Co. were signed, is now the site of Hart Plaza in Downtown Detroit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 03:33 pm:

The Mack Ave. site is now a field, not far from the Piquette Plant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 04:48 pm:

Wow Luke, what a fantastic resource, however, I suspect there may be an error.

You have the Mack Ave plant in Hart Plaza (2.6km south of Mack Ave.) which, as you say above, is the site of the Malcolmson coal yard.

Jerry's posting describes one of the positions that I suspected was the site of the Mack Ave plant (Tolan Playfield)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:50 pm:

Gavin,

I wouldn't describe the area as a playfield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:02 pm:

Look at the 6500 block of Mack, between Belleview & Beaufait. It's the light colored field on the south side of Mack Ave.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:09 pm:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=6500+block+mack+avenue,+detroit&hl=en&ll=42.362171 ,-83.017604&spn=0.002279,0.003449&sll=42.353359,-83.037972&sspn=0.009118,0.02197 3&t=h&hnear=6500+Mack+Ave,+Detroit,+Michigan+48207&z=18


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

Oddly, the street view of the field shows a derelict building that has since been torn down in the satellite view.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 04:20 pm:

Jerry,

That is making more sense. You can see the railway further north coming down a corridor between the buildings. That corridor (without tracks) continues in a straight line down to the Detroit River. I have a 1916 railway map showing a line crossing Jefferson between Beaufait & Bellevue Streets.


My Tolen Playfield was based on street numbers which we now know to have been changed.

My satellite view still shows the buildings though the same vehicles are all in the same positions on the roads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

Luke,

Great effort. Check on Edsel Ford's grave site. I believe it is in Woodlawn Cemetery on the west side of Woodward north of Seven Mile Road. Alexander Malcomson is buried at Woodmere Cemetery. So is David Buick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 03:39 am:

I have found an interactive map drawn in 1940 which shows the railway line just as I surmised above and it is labelled "Michigan Central Belt Line". Thanks Jerry.

It also shows Griswold Street (Malcolmsons Coal Yard)carrying on past Jefferson for three more blocks to the river. Anyone know where number 149 was?

While I am at it, for a brief period in 1902, "Ford & Malcolmson" operated out of 81 Park Place. Park Place does not show up on Google Earth; can anyone point me in the approx direction so that I might find it the old fashioned way (using eyes).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 03:54 am:

Ok, stop looking, I've found Park Place and not too far from Griswold either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 04:14 am:

How did HF ever have time to build cars? he seems to have spent a lot of time in the early days shifting homes and factories.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 01:31 pm:

Here's another one for you to look up. My understanding is that Model K engines, and possibly other components as well, were assembled at another plant, not Mack Ave and not Piquette. I've asked a few Ford gurus where this plant was located and have gotten no answers. Anybody know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 03:00 pm:

There was an "independent" company called Henry Ford and Son to make parts for the Ford Motor Company. On line research is not satisfactory on this topic. I have seen some drawings at the Benson Ford Research Center with that name in the title block. Don't remember if they are T or pre-T.

I have a recollection of reading a reference to the plant as being on either Bellevue or Beaufait Streets in Detroit. Not the same location as the Mack Avenue Plant, but near that location.

More research is needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:12 pm:

Yes Tom, that would be the one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

Bellevue according to "The Model T, A Pictorial Chronology of The Most Famous Car In the World" by Robert C. Kreipke.

One picture on page 4 shows what looks to be the back entrance with what looks to be a pre T Ford and a horse drawn wagon, "The Bellevue facility manufactured engines and gears. Soon the Ford Manufacturing company was absorbed into the Ford motor Company and all operations were located at Piquette."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:31 pm:

Robert Casey's "The Model t, A Centennial History" has the same photo on page 36 with the inscription "The Home of the Ford Manufacturing Company, 773-775 Bellevue Avenue. We have already seen how Henry Ford used the Ford Manufacturing Company to force Alexander Malcolmson out of his way. ....."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 06:02 am:

According to "Old and New House numbers, City of Detroit" effective January 1st 1921" compiled by the Department of Public Works, Joseph A Martin, Commisioner:

764-6 Bellevue Avenue became 3190 Bellevue Ave and 780 became 3220 which puts it in the same block as the Mack Ave plant (or maybe over the road) about half way between Mack & Benson


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 06:30 am:

A bit more reading says "Even and Odd numbers will be assigned to streets in the same manner as under the old plan: the even numbers on the right hand side and the odd on the left, facing out from the base lines." (Base line is Essex)

This puts the Bellevue factory in the same block as the Mack Ave plant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 06:42 am:

Ok, all of that from me in NZ. Tom gives us that "online research is not satisfactory on this topic" so I take it that this approach has been tried but not proven.

I cannot claim to have solved an old mystery but would be interested to learn how close my thinking is to those at the coalface.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:56 pm:

Gavin,

Maybe just my online research wasn't satisfactory.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 04:46 am:

Luke,

Using the same reasoning, Malcolmson's coal yard which is listed at 149 Griswold Street ends up at about the intersection of Griswold & West Fort Street.


Am I missing something ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 08:15 am:

Gavin,

I suspect this was the headquarters of Malcomson Coal, not their yard. (need to find where that was.) Actually, the Malcomson Coal Office was on the north corner of that block, at Lafayette. Here are two pictures from Shorpy of the building.

From 1908, showing Griswold on the left and Lafayette on the right.

1908


From 1911 (showing the Lafayette frontage)

1911


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

I'm at work right now but have been following this thread. When I get home tonite I will add some more info relevant to this thread.

-Posted from my Android phone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

Re: My map. I'm sure there's a couple errors and will correct them. Thanks for pointing them out!

The German American Bank Building-
Here's a thread from last year where we talked about this a bit. Tied in with Ford History on a couple levels.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/201672.html?1301591770

Re: The Henry Ford & Son company.

From what I remember when this enterprise was started, Henry pulled Charles Sorensen out from Ford Motor to work at Henry Ford & Son.

I'm tired from working a 14 hour day, so when I can think more clearly I'll find the rest of my info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 05:36 am:

Google Earth is proving to be not very accurate with variations within the different options of the same program.
The building now on the site of the German American Bank at Griswold & Lafayette has a nice big clear 751 above the door while the number at the top of the screen is telling me that I am looking at No 1062. Google maps also reckons I am near No. 1000.

Lesson learnt.

However, Street numbers on buildings should still be reliable, shouldn't they?

I can now see the Street numbers on the windows of the Shorpy pics with 153 on the corner (Michigan Savings Bank), 151 next door (Central Savings Bank) and 14? on Malcomson's window.

While I have only ever seen the one photo of "Malcomson's yard"; didn't I read somewhere that he had a few yards?

Thanks for putting me right Tom & Luke.
How easy it is to rewrite history.

Now, correct me please if I am wrong, but wasn't it the Ford Manufacturing Co (1905 - 1906) that was formed to get rid of Malcomson and a few other shareholders who wanted the big cars;
Henry Ford & Son was formed in 1915 to build the Fordson Tractors


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 07:57 am:

"Street numbers on buildings should still be reliable, shouldn't they?"

When I lived in Pennsylvania (USA) my physical address was changed three times by the post office and I never moved an inch. The last time not only did they change the numerical address they changed the street name.

So it may be possible to have different address' for the same building.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 10:58 am:

Gavin,

Old number system, new number system, old street extensions, etc...I tried the same exercise circa 1978 using the Detroit City Library on Woodward Avenue. I came away confused as it seemed there were conflicting references to actually 'where'.

I heard that in 2003 the gang in Detroit visited it as part of a tour...but don't recall where they visited or where everybody decided 'where' really was.

The best I was able to come up with in my early search was a newspaper interview done in the 20's with the buildings owner, leasor, and Ford stock holder.

His recollection differed from what 'history' has given us, but I also think a lot of Ford 'stuff' was embellished.

For what its worth, the article follows, sorry for the clarity and size, maybe you can zoom your browswer...but Strelow says it was BEHIND his building located at Belleville & Mack. Can't help which corner as I have never been able to get the insurance maps for the era either. If you want a bigger cleaner copy, e-mail me.

This may or may not be the site consensus seems to have arrived at for the tour, I don't know and is just Strelow recall which I also have never seen quoted anywhere else in 'the history'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 12:19 pm:

Not Belleville! Belleview!

Sorry.................

Belleview & Mack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 05:19 pm:

George,

Yes please,
I have sent you a PM

Gavin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 10:18 pm:

It is a cold, wet Sunday here and I have spent the day (so far) searching the net for other leads.

I have come across "Sanborn maps" which were put out in the 1800's and 1900's for insurance purposes. From what I can see, these maps have all buildings drawn on them and the names of the company operating out of these buildings and were published regularly.
Access to the maps seem to be restricted to licenced research facilities.

Does anyone here have access to these ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Dupree on Sunday, August 12, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

Try this-
http://libguides.lib.msu.edu/content.php?pid=54497&sid=399252
or this-
http://guides.emich.edu/content.php?pid=106547&sid=808279
For some early michigan maps

ron Dupree


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 08:13 am:

Here's the story from one of the best Ford historians I know:

The Mack Avenue plant was at 697 Mack Avenue between Bellevue and Beaufait ( people may better understand if you say between Mt. Elliott and East Grand Blvd.) on the south side of the street east of the high point in the road where the “belt line” railroad tracks once were. All addresses were changed in the city around 1920. So this area is now around 6000 Mack Ave.

Ford and Malcomson Co. (a company created by Henry Ford and Alexander Malcomson on August 15, 1902) had moved into the former wagon shop on Mack around March 1903, when Henry Ford and his assistants C. (Childe) Harold Wills and August Degener beginning work on a small car here. This operation, a building rented from eventual FoMoCo shareholder, Albert Strelow, became Ford Motor Company on June 16, 1903. By October more space was needed and a second floor was added. By early 1904 Henry Ford and John Dodge were chosen from the board to find a “permanent” site (Piquette) where they moved by the end of 1904. The Mack building burned around 1940 and was replaced by a brick building, which then burned early in 2003 and was torn down a couple of years later. The site is still empty today.

After Ford Motor Co. moved to Piquette, Ford Manufacturing company was incorporated on November 22, 1905. It was set up by seven of the original shareholders of Ford Motor Co. in order to force out those shareholders who wanted to build big, high profit (per unit) cars like the Model K instead of such vehicles at the Ford Model N. After three of the original twelve shareholders sold their stock in 1906 this company was absorbed by FoMoCo. The manufacturing plant stood on Bellevue not far from where FoMoCo started on Mack.

Henry Ford & Son was organized on July 27, 1917 to build the Fordson Tractor. As the name implies the company was owned by Henry and Edsel Ford his only child. After the Fords took FoMoCo private in 1919 this company was also absorbed by the company.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 04:59 pm:

Ron,

Thanks for those leads; I followed all of the links and the Sanborn maps still look to be the most likely. Unfortunately they are also the only maps that you can only access if you are a member of a research facility. I have made contact with the University of Michigan to see what can be done. I think we have "Mack Ave" fairly well sorted but I would like to see where the "Ford Manufacturing Co" was in Bellevue St.

Jerry,

great stuff, thank you. It looks as if the single storey building was about halfway between the Belt Line railway and Bellevue. The photos show that the building was also extended sideways towards the railway lines. The photos also show a fence along the Mack frontage extending towards Bellevue. George's newspaper clipping shows the railway line. Pity this photo is not a bit clearer. (George has sent me a better copy of the newspaper clipping but it still does not show the front of the building very clearly.)
Mack Ave
Mack Ave
Mack Ave

Anyone else got any other photos of "Mack Ave."?

BTW, it looks like Ford may have saved themselves a few dollars by only having to add "MPANY" to the sign across the front of the building.


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