Symptoms of generator trouble.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Symptoms of generator trouble.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

Electrical stuff any more complex than house wiring is my Achilles' heel, so before I even take the thing off the car and try the motoring test, the symptoms so far:

1 Used to charge, now doesn't;
2 Bypassing the cutout with the engine running has no effect;
3 Bypassing the cutout with the engine not running shows discharge (about 9 amps).

From this I see the cutout is cutting out current from the battery, but nothing's coming from the generator. Any other info from those symptoms?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 01:55 pm:

No 2, check the output with a meter.
No.3, you are getting a - reading because the voltage is going to ground through the meter from the battery through the generator. If you have a mechanical type cutout then it acts as a one way switch. If there is need because the battery is low or lights are on then the output closes the points and it reads at the meter that it is working. If there is no need then the points open and the current travels through a very thin shunt wire to ground from the generator output.
You could have many things wrong with the generator itself. Burnt commutator, bad brushes, open windings in the armature or field windings or it just needs to be polarized.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 01:58 pm:

Sounds like:
1. You have a problem with the armature or brushes.
2. You are running an original style cutout that is probably working properly. Or maybe not - a risky proposition. Fun Projects offers a replacement that maintains full functionality of the system but is undetectable by looking at it, and requires no wiring changes.

I would look at the brushes first, and order a Fun Projects regulator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 02:15 pm:

Try polarizing it Jeff.
It costs nothing (I know you'll like that part....... :-) ) and it might do the trick.
In case you don't know how, but I think you do, disconnect the lead from the cutout and use that lead to give the generator an instantaneous jolt to the output lug from the hot side of the battery.
Reconnect the wire and see what happens.
The brushes may be glazed or even stuck.
Regan's solid state regulator/cutout is the best thing anyone can do for their Model T generator.
Are all connections and wire terminals tight?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

Steve's action number 3 already polarized the generator. It would appear the generator is in need of repair. What was the charging rate set at when the generator was working and the RPM was high and it "Used to charge,..."?? Remove the dust cover and look for oil on the armature that the brushes might be riding up on. Also look for signs of melted solder having been thrown out onto the dust cover from the armature.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 03:30 pm:

One of the most common problems with the generator is the insulator on the 3rd brush. If it grounds to the brush plate, your generator won't work. This insulator has the bolt which holds the third brush in place and after many years of tightening and loosening it will eventually crack the insulator and the bolt will ground the brush. This could be the cause of your problem
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 03:46 pm:

I'm ahead on part of this. I already have the fun Projects VR. I just need to get this thing working so I can install it. I hope it will be something simple like just cleaning the armature.

If I remember correctly, the thing was set for 10 to 12 amps at 20 mph. I believe I read somewhere that this is the same as about 0 when the lights are on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 04:01 pm:

One problem is oil on the commutator, clean while running with a non flamable contact cleaner and sand with one of your wifes fingernail sanding boards. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 05:40 pm:

If your wife is a nail chewer, you can use a small whet stone. I would check also for thrown solder, high mica, grounded field coils and worn out or stuck brushes. After all else fails send the generator to Ron the coil man.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 06:13 pm:


When I removed the cover I found no thrown solder, but a little oil.


I did some cleaning, first with a little lacquer thinner and then with sandpaper against the turning commutator, and that got it charging. It was steady at six amps, but when I went for a test drive of about a mile it was intermittent, jumping between 6 and 0.


To my relatively inexperienced eye it looks like the commutator needs its teeth flossed. It seems a lot of crud has built up between the segments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 06:24 pm:

You're right Steve. It wouldn't hurt a bit to clean the insulation between the communicator segments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 07:06 pm:

Steve
The armature needs to be tested, turned, undercut and new brushes CORRECTLY seated. During this process you will want to inspect the brushplate as mentioned by Norman Kling above.
If you need help give me a call.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 08:02 pm:

Yep, that's what I thought. I will attack it with the Electrical System book. Don't be surprised if I call.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 09:25 pm:

Steve:

Don't get in a hurry and decide to install the VR "just to try it". Installing a good VR onto a questionable generator results in a questionable VR. Get the generator totally and properly rebuilt and only then install the VR and set it up exactly per the instructions. With a solid generator and the VR on top you will have an excellent setup for many years to come. It is also an excellent time to check at least the 5 main wires in the charging path between the Generator and the battery positive post. Battery cables need to be inspected too. It really isn't a huge job but if you take the time to check everything and clean it up before you install any new stuff you will be fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Get the generator right, then add the VR to keep it that way. I want to get this car in shape for touring, so I mean to take my time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

You had it working intermitently after cleaning therefore it works. Get the commutator cleaned up and go between each segment and lightly scrape out the brass between them. The brass bits between the segments is obvious in the pictures. There's a lot there. What shape are the brushes in? A good scrape and brushes might be all you need.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 08:38 pm:

I know next to nothing about generators, but I think I read somewhere that using sandpaper on the commutator is a no no. I always used a commutator stick on my portable welder. I got it at a local welding supply. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

The book recommends sandpaper. It's emery paper that's verboten because it contains conductive materials.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 12:38 am:

Royce, isn't this blasphemy akin to the E-Timer?

"Fun Projects offers a replacement that maintains full functionality of the system but is undetectable by looking at it, and requires no wiring changes.

I would look at the brushes first, and order a Fun Projects regulator."

But when you look inside the FP Regulator, there's all those electronics gizmos. Please explain how that's different in concept from the E-timer.

If the third brush and EM cutout were good enough for Henry...

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Stitt-Southern Oregon on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 01:39 am:

I ain't sayin nothin,
Is that a Phillips screw I see above the amp gauge...<chuckle>


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 06:59 am:

Easy Ralph. The Fun Projects regulator does not have any printed circuits or moving parts, and it maintains full functionality of the original Model T system, while offering improved reliability. If your T has a charging system (none of mine do), this is a real improvement.

The E timer sabotages the ability of a Model T to operate on magneto. It removes the main ignition system and reduces one to depending on the charging system and battery for power. Also it is a frail device with a printed circuit board mounted in the area of the car that is usually hot, vibrating, and oily.

If the T has an unnecessary water pump there will also be water leaking on it. This is the worst possible place for a printed circuit board that is the only source of ignition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 08:57 am:

Mike, when I posted the picture I wondered who would notice that. It's not my fault. The guys who did this car's body did a twenty foot restoration. It looks pretty good from twenty feet away, but when you get up close you notice all the stuff they did wrong. I'm going through it and replacing modern fasteners a few at a time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 09:26 am:

Steve, that reminds me of the expression I use for my T - a nice 50-30 car. Looks good from 50 feet when going by at 30 mph... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 10:06 am:

Do I detect a shift of position regarding E-Timers from, "it's modern" to other excuses?

Ford "Steady by Jerks" ignition, as it was called by the racers in the day leaves a lot of room for improvement. The best use for the magneto output is for charging whatever battery is onboard, instead of fixed timing jumps. It could even be a 9v Rechargeable. You could carry a spare battery in your pocket, in case the magneto failed.

The Ford magneto was an expensive way to avoid paying patent royalties. It's inefficient, lacking maintainability and repairability.

"Also it is a frail device with a printed circuit board mounted in the area of the car that is usually hot, vibrating, and oily."

Do you know for a fact it's frail, or are you just throwing mud? There's a PC board in most alternators, where the conditions may be even worse than near the end of the camshaft.

The waterpump on the ol' brass picup hasn't dripped a drop since I rebuilt it a dozen years and thousands of miles ago. Besides, it would be quite a torturous path from a waterpump shaft to the timer cover, which should have a decent seal anyhow. If you're worried about water intrusion, you could fill the E-Timer cavity with grease, just like one of those timers with all the mechanical claptrap.

"Grasping at straws" comes to mind.

rdr
I'll buy a FP regulator if I ever put on a third brush generator..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Stitt-Southern Oregon on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 10:17 am:

Jeff I'm with Dick, mine is a 50/30 car. I'm not throwing stones....lol
You gotta hate the dilemma, turn the screw and the paint chips. My rear fenders have been welded up with a coat hanger! Love the look.
My model A is a 10 footer, ok 20 footer. Who can afford up close and personal? Good luck with your project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:21 am:

Steve, your third picture shows what looks to me like a couple of burned commutator bars. This would suggest a short in the armature.

Again, I would send this generator off to Ron and be done with it!

(Kinda like a new radiator... you'll never realize how bad the old one was till you get a new one!)


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