This is weird: 3 dip pan is fitting my large 26-27 transmission and clearing?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: This is weird: 3 dip pan is fitting my large 26-27 transmission and clearing?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 08:42 pm:

Hey guys, so yesterday we found out my 26 engine pan is bent to Hell where the riveted cap for the front end wishbone is. It's dented in and crooked. So today I found a three dip pan (looked far and wide for a four dip pan with no luck). just for s&Gs I put it on and...WHAT? IT FITS?? The brake drum just BARELY clears the pan, but it definitely is not hitting. Any feed back on this?

Also, the inside corner bolt hole (the one near the felt/engine block) on my hogs head is broken, I mean literally snapped off on the outside. am I going to have to replace the f****** thing or will it get tight enough still as to not leak oil? (sorry, frustrated here, oh and the manifold is warped to hell too) GRR!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

Matthew, are the bands on the drums? If not, you may still have clearance problems. Just a little problem can be relieved with a bit of local heat and some beating. It will make a small relief to give clearance. On my tourer, the previous restorer had done this to accommodate the wider brake drum.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 09:20 pm:

Matthew where are you located?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:47 pm:

The hogshead is trash. They break there from someone trying to draw the hogshead down all at once instead of progressively tightening the bolts all the way around. When you say the manifold is warped I assume you mean the exhaust manifold. I would recommend that you just get a new one because originals are difficult to find in useable condition. You will also need a four dip pan to allow enough space for the brake band.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 10:58 pm:

Matthew, talk to John and get a 4 dip pan.
If John says it's good it's good...... :-)
If you ever would have to access #4 rod bearing you would swear yourself to Helenback.......maybe twice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:09 am:

Here's an update guys.
John, I see you live in Montana? I live in Middleburgh, New York State.
I took a torch and heated the bent part nearly red hot and bashed the dents out with a hammer. I bolted it down to check and see if the field coil was still hitting at the bottom. My concern was that it hitting would shift it so that the magnets and copper on the coil would collide, killing my whole transmission or worse. We put the transmission on today and it has 0.030 clearance at most spots. It doesn't seem to be hitting but I can't be sure. (can't roate flywheel by hand, it's so tight now, guess we did too well on rebuilding those rod caps ;) , ) I'll probably have to oush start it the first couple times until those new rings are run in. There's a problem though: One of the rivets on the wishbone cap plate is now loose. It's still in there, but wiggles. It was an unfortunate necessity: one of the worst dents was on the rivet and so had to be hammered out. I thinktomorrow i'll take it to our local mechanic and see if he can weld it tight again for me. I'll also call Langs and see if they have a 26-27 hogshead out back I could pick up (and maybe a 4 dip pan if need be)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:10 am:

John, I should clarify,

If you live in Montana, how much would shipping on a 4 dip pan be to NY if Lang's doesn't have any?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:14 am:

Oh, and Allan, No, I had completely forgotten about the bands, that's probably why it's clearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:38 am:

Somebody might be able to braze a piece of metal onto the transmission cover if you need them to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:44 am:

Matthew, John lives in Missouri ....... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:12 am:

If you plan on using this pan I would have it checked for being straight. It is probably warped after being heated and beat on which will cause problems.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 02:01 am:

I've watched two expert model T guys straightening pans on KW pan straightening jigs. It is easy to flail away at a pan and make it LOOK better. It takes an experienced (fast) pan guy around an hour to work out all the twists and bends and get everything lined up.

Pans can look good to your eye... and tape measure... and slapping them up against a block, but still be tweaked. The result is a high risk of breaking your crankshaft. If you don't care about destroying your engine then just push that radius rod socket around until it looks good.

If you are not a big time gambler then find a pan man and pay him to straighten your pan. If you obtain a new pan then you should find a pan man and pay him to straighten your new pan.

I once went up to Carson City NV to get my pan straightened. Since it was so far I had a spare '26-'27 pan straightened (for sale if you want it). Now I have a great Pan guy, Erik Barrett, just 30 miles away in Auburn. After brazing a rear dam onto my 1913 pan I had Erik straighten that one out.

Pan work is money well spent IMHO.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 03:05 am:

If the pan was so badly bent that the magneto ring was touching it you really should find a better pan.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Bergmann Sydney - Australia on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 05:16 am:

Now I find out 30 years later. I've got a 26 reconditioned engine (not by me) sitting on a 3 dip pan with a 26 hogs head in a 25 frame which I bought in 1982. I've had the engine running once,but have never even had the band cover off. I know
one arm is bent, so I now know a straightened 4 dip pan is in order. You learn something every day. Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 06:21 am:

I have 4 dip pans and a pan jig to straighten them.

Oso Handy Restorations
aloso@q.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 10:26 am:

Update again. The pan is officially dead. No one around here can braze, and the inspection plate surface is also slightly bent it turns out. Guess it's time to look for a 26 transmission head and a 26 pan then. Ah well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 10:55 am:

As said above, you could have someone braze a corner onto the hogs head and then drill and tap it. Better if you have the piece which broke off to braze it on. Or if there is a small lip on the hogs head, you can make a washer to fit the area and overhang the edge of the existing metal enough to pull it down with a bolt and nut. You will find that many of the hogs heads have been broken in exactly the same place. To prevent that breakage you need to trim the felt at the rear of the engine so you don't have a large wad under that area. Use plenty of gasket sealer around that area, and tighten starting in the center of each side working toward the ends and tighten in stages. Similarly to the way you tighten the head.

Concerning the 3 dip crankcase. Perhaps someone knows whether the late 25 which had the wide brake drum also had a 3 dip crankcase? Did both the 4 dip and the wide band come out at the same date? I guess the only you will be able to determine is to see if the hogs head fits to the crankcase, and whether the crankcase fits under the transmission with all the parts assembled.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:42 pm:

Mathew,

You don't have to braze the loose rivet. If you clean up the area very good, you can solder it. One rivet will not make anything too weak. All you need to do is seal it and solder will do that for you. Just get it hot enough for the solder to capillary into the void around the rivet and maybe use some acid flux to clean things up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 03:11 pm:

I was going to solder it, but unfortunately when it cooled the outside plate warped outward, partly detached from the pan, plus the inspection plate area did the same and warped out when it cooled. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark McWethy on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

Matthew, I highly recomend Andy Loso. Have bought a few things from him. Reasonably priced good shippment time. Recieved everything that he promised.
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 01:08 am:

Laugh at this repair
rangi oil pan repair


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 01:59 am:

Andy, how much are you asking for one of those pans?


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