Following the thread on ignition systems, I wonder what carburetors people are running and if they are completely satisfied with them.
I run a 5 ball on my 10 and am very happy with the performance. You need to flood it to start it as the manual choke won't do the job when the engine is cold. It outperforms a straight thru NH on that car. I run a straight thru NH on the 26 pickup and performance is good, but the idle is not real smooth. In the past I've run Ls, Gs, swayback NHs, a 4550, 2 screws and a vaporizer but the two I run today generally outperform these others.
im experimenting with an NH, top end is good but it just doesnt idle as smooth or start as easily as my holley G.
all in all im impressed with the G, that thing idled like a dream and started first pull.
i have a simmons and a winfield model M that im currently rebuilding for experimentation.
NH's are the way to go in my book. They are available, easy to get parts for, and finally the correct needle and seats are being made.
Kingston L4, idles way better then my rebuilt NH. Top end maybe a little lower then the NH. I have a Schebler that I play with. It is one of the later models (the Schebler) with the enricher (sp). 1914 ish aluminum intake.
1. I have very little experience with other carbs besides the NH on model T but have had great luck with the swayback NH. With mild smoothing inside, it runs/idles/starts better than the STNH.
2. I do wonder how many folks have some degree of performance downgrade due to incomplete clearing of the internal passages in the rebuild process. I am thinking of the NH but the same goes for most T carburetors. Also, how much difference the intake manifold makes as there seems a fair bit of dimensional variation between castings.
3. I have heard many times tales of better than imagined performance with the 5 ball carbs. It looks rather restrictive at the intake horn. What is the secret to 5 ball performance?
Man I wish I could afford a 5 ball, I would like to try one.
I have NH straight thru, Stromberg OF, and Vaporizer on my cars. About to try a U&J on the 15.
Currently running a G, idles great runs good at low speeds as well as top speed. 50 + mph I took my NH off it was built by reputable builder but idles sloppy and has only one tiny spot it will run if the adjustment is moved your screwed... I sold my 5 ball $900 also have a 4 ball haven't tried it yet... Used a 2 screw idled great, low speed was good, top speed was like running a restrictor plate 30-35 mph was it !
Think I'll stick with the Holly G for now.
When I inherited the '12 my Dad had been running an NH for many years. I remembered him saying the NH was the best all-around carb for a T that is going to be driven in terms of performance, reliability, parts, etc.
But about 10 years ago I had an opportunity to by a nice Holly H-1. So I bought it and tried it out. The H-1 idles just as well as the NH, requires less mixture tweaking from cold to hot, and seems smooth overall. Just hope nothing ever goes wrong with it.
I run the black sheep - a Holley Vaporizer. Like Eric, it's the only one I've had experience with. Veteran T-owners have told me to change to the NH until they get a chance to drive it. Those who have driven my car have told me not to change a thing because the car runs so well.
I'm too stupid to try anything else...
Saves me from having opinions about differences on things like bands where I have each car different and see no differences anyway....lol
All of mine regardless of year run a Plain Jane NH and if one carb gets finicky and won't settle or adjust to my liking, there are always a few in the box...lol..and that finicky one gets reused elsewhere later on something it wants to work on.
Run the whole gamut...the 15 roadster will idle smooth, and not even burp when getting near 50...the Hack, Coupe, and Fordor weigh a ton (literally) and while I won't drive any of them over about 35 or so, have full range and all idle nice. Disclaimer....the highest South Jersey mountain is about 100 feet above sea-level but we do have one local that does that 100 feet in less than 1/4 mile and get to chug up that one too many times without needing low and don't bog. Besides, there are hardly any moving parts...and that makes it even nicer for the village idiot here and one less thing to fiddle with or worry about...lol
Was able to get the '15 back in service on Tuesday after almost 2 years on blocks...finally got to prove that the skate plates do work for three cars in one side of a two car garage Just have to move last driven out of the way first The nicest thing about pulling the 15 off blocks was the 28 year old son said, "Yo pop, it's time, I'll turn wrenches"
A regular NH works fine, I've also used a Stromberg OF and it's a fine carburetor for a T. The Fronty head on the speedster came a Zenith HP 5A side draft that works great after I swapped jets with a smaller HP 4A.
I've got a plain ole NH. I don't have anything else to compare it to, but it runs great. I think an aluminum manifold with a 5 ball would be ridiculously cool and look even better. I googled some but I didn't see any 5 balls on Tbay or anywhere else. However, it sounds like a rather expensive item, I'll probably get a KC Warford or win the lotto before I get a 5 ball.
Forgot to mention on the last club outing of about 150 miles on a very hot day, I got 26 miles per gallon.
Swayback NH on two Ts and downdraft Carter WO on two other. Happy with them both.
I run a NH on the 15' and it's a good carb and had no problems I have also run a period correct bolt on Rayfield. very simuliar to a OF Stormberg. That carb is amazing I never knew the same T could run so much better smoother idle and more top end. My speedster runs a Carter bb1 updraft it has 2-1/2" bore and really wakes up a T with a overhead. I also have a winfield but have not run it yet. Bottom line the NH for what it, a simple puddle carb is a good carb and will perform ok for most T driving P.S Jim K get rid of that damm vaporizer LOL!!
Kingston L4. Starts easily, idles down well on mag, cruises 30-35 smoothly and is easy to overhaul when needed. And because so many people don't like them, they are relatively cheap and easy to come by for parts.
It makes a big difference if you are talking about stock carbs that Ford supplied or if you are talking accessory carbs. IMHO the NH is the most trouble free of all the stock carbs. If they are cleaned and set up correctly they are very forgiving and run well through most throttle ranges, start well and idle OK.
Accessory carbs are another story. There is a reason Stromberg sold over 500,000 OF's when they cost $15.75. That was a lot of money in the day. Wheeler-Schebler sold a lot of carbs, they run well. Zenith made a dynamite setup for T's that give lots of zoom and better mileage and Rayfield made a fine carburetor that must not have sold too well as they are very hard to find. I think they came out a little late to get on the band wagon. I have over 50 accessory carbs, Russ has over 100 and there are a couple other collections around with substantial numbers of accessory carbs. At least half of them that I have tried run very well. ALL carburetors are a compromise. Those that start well may not run well at higher speeds, some sacrific economy for performance, etc. Some idle very well, start very well, run at higher speeds very well and make better mileage. That list is short. Stromberg OF and a couple others.
Started typing this and got interupted. Mike is right. Those Rayfields are amazing. They are very hard to find, tho. I have only had about 5 of them including a NOS one I have set aside for my speedster. Zoom Zoom!!!
I'm not pimping my deal here but if you want to see what some of the carbs look like, www.strombergof.com
Mike, get rid of that BB1!!!!!! That is a truck carb from the 50's!!! Frank loves em!! Can't run at Santa Clara with them, tho. Seriously, there are a lot of period carbs that will run just as well. An OE-2 is just as good and looks spiffy, all brass and shiny.
1927: I ran a Holley Vaporizer for years and loved it. Performance went to hell and I couldn't get the carby back to running the car well so I switched to NH and didn't like it. Then put Stromberg RF on which is doing fine... but then I found the problem was coils and Anderson timer, who knew that after no maintenance or care for ten years you would have to re set both of those! So next is the every ten years valve adjustment and then I will put the old Vaporizer back on.
I have run an NH Swayback for years. Good all around carb, no complaints. I prefer the NH Straight Through. It requires a little more choke to start but offers better hill climbing and more top end. Not as good on gas as the Swayback.
Tried a D&B Harrington. Best idle of any carb I have used but no top end.
Ran a Winfield for years. Awesome speed and hill climbing. Not much for idling. Likes to drink.
I have been running a U & J this summer. Easy to start. Will idle down slow but is more rough than an NH. This is one of my favorite carbs so far. It was advertised as "50% more mileage". Must have been a typo. Mine gets 50% less mileage but turns the gas into rocket fuel.
I have not had much experience with various carbs.
That aside, my L4 will idle ridiculously low and do it smoothly. I typically don't run over 35 - 40 mph, but again its smooth at those speeds and pulls strongly to get there.
Easy to rebuild and maintain. But likes a LOT of throttle to start when hand cranking. Overall quite satisfied.
Not sure about MPG though. Would like to hear from other L4 owners on MPG.
Run a Stromberg OF on my 12 Torpedo and like it a lot but I have never tried anything else. I have always wanted to take it to a shop with a dyno so I could dial in the mixture or hook up the mix control knob to be able to adjust on the road.
Stan, the BB1 came stock on my 1932 Plymouth PB so they aren't too far from being period carbs.
Kingston L-4 on both cars, runs good and idles way down.
Holley Vaporizor on my 27 Coupe.
I love it. Don't know if it is good orbad, but it makes my T go down the road so I love it.
Danial, you should try measuring your mileage. I always hear the vaporizer was not the most peppy carb, but supposed to be one of the best for M.P.G.
Not sure why some of you guys have rough idle with the NH. I get a good smooth idle well below 300 rpm.
Hal, I wonder if it goes back to a point I mentioned earlier about not completely clear passages in carb body?
Stan I hear ya. I think steve is right as I also heard carter started bb1 with the 1932 plymouth. That being said I am open to a more period correct carb. Stan can you tell me more about OE-2? pros. cons. is it rare? The one thing I love about the bb1 is it has a accelerator pump would I lose this novelty with the OE-2? Lastly if I had you provide me with a shiny one what would cost me?[I am sitting down] Plymouth parts on a T! and I thought water pumps were bad!
Hey Steve Hope to see you at the speedster run this weekend.
Thats a "problem" with the NHs--they run pretty damn good, even with those passages blocked. Cleaning them out helps--particularly idle---Paul
Ran a Holly G on our 1913 Touring and it was great. We had a Ruckstell with A C brakes and three to one gears. Cruised at 60 on the freeways in Southern California. Jahns racing pistons helped. It could run away from our 1913 Cadillac. Our #22 speedster has a high compression aluminum head and huge valves so we run a Stromberg 97 dual throat down draft and don't blow black smoke with it, but it's jetted correctly. The manifold is made turned sideways as you can see in the picture so the two throats are in line with the manifold and it works very well. It gets rid of the two port issue and we get 25 miles to the gallon and speeds up to 75 miles an hour.
Mike, the BB1 that was on the 32 Plymouth and Dodge is quite a bit different from the BB1 that was used on the GMC cabover trucks in the 40's and 50's. Those little ones off the Plymouths are hard to find, I think.
OE-2 Great Carb -- Too big for most T's engines unless they have an overhead, etc. OE-1 is great Speedster carb, it's a little smaller. The OE-2 was used on a lot of 6 cylinder Studebakers in the early 20's. It's not particularly rare. I usually have one or two around and buy every one I can find that isn't all beat to pieces and not too expensive.
The don't have an accelerator pump but they have the accelerating well, which probably works as well or better than the pump on an updraft.
If I provide you with a shiny one it will cost 550-650 depending on some things.
The U & J is a good carb if you want to go fast and don't mind buying gas. A lot of speedster guys use them. Robb is right about the D & B, much underrated for starting and smooth. It has a variable venturi which is still pretty small even when open so they don't have a lot of top end.
In my '27 tudor I run with a Kingston B-1 gasifier, possibly the rarest Ford carb that was officially used.
Performance is superb. Instant acceleration and a well designed choke system are its outstanding features. Advertised claims of increased fuel mileage and horse power have proven true.
The engineers at Ford may not have fully understood this carb. In the parts list (Service Bulletin September 1927) they call the flame arrestor the "silencer" and the choke needle the "low speed needle assembly."
Interesting finding: The B-1s are serial numbered, on the exhaust manifold under port no. 3.
You may be right, Erich.
Stock NH. Starts, runs and idles without any problems.
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long without a mention of the Simmons straight-through carb. So I'll correct that.
The Simmons (also sold through Western Auto stores as a Wizard) is a great carb. It is very similar to the straight-through Holley NH, but it has a flapper like a Kingston, which acts sort-of as an automatic choke. One choke pull on the crank, and it'll usually start on the next pull. It's the only one I've run that I like better than the Holley G, which was original equipment on 15's (and other years). I have put thousands of miles on my cars using both of them. It seems to me that the Simmons is better than the G at higher rpm's. As Uncle Stan says, "Zoom Zoom!" My car also starts easier and more predictably with the Simmons than with the G.
I ran the Holley G on my '15 Touring on the trip to Richmond and back for the Centennial. 1,800 miles without a glitch, 17 mpg.
(Erich) "Danial, you should try measuring your mileage. I always hear the vaporizer was not the most peppy carb, but supposed to be one of the best for M.P.G."
I may have to check that out for grins, before summer ends.
If it gets anything over 15, I'll be good with that....grin...
Simmons indeed. Do not forget the Simmons vaporizer, also available from Western Auto. It bears a close resemblance to the Ford/Holley vaporizer, but it's different. The vaporizer plate is extremely robust, and it is adjustable from the dash, using a pull-rod. You can attenuate the vaporizer action for use in the summer. The vapor riser in back is a dummy, and the choke scheme is not nearly as sophisticated as the Ford/Holley. Note that it has a threaded vacuum port, for use with the TRICO wiper motor.
Mike, did you ever try your OF???
Jim, that Simmons is really interesting. I've never seen one of those and I'll bet they didn't sell too well in the day. Put me on your list if you ever decide to get rid of it or find another one like it.
Another thing that was very popular was the accessory manifold. There were all sorts of them. There could be a whole thread on those.
Here is a link to the "Accessory Carb" page on my web site. I have a bunch more that aren't shown, need to get them on there some time.
I went to your web page and I was blown away! I had no idea there were so many accessory carburetors for the Ford. What a magnificent collection.
You must have an example of the Simmons vaporizer for this collection. I'll think about it.
Thanks, that is no where near all of the ones that were made and only about half of the ones I have. They are pretty interesting and it is a statement of how America used to be that all those people could design something and put it on the market to make a T at least supposedly run better. A lot of them really do, too. The difference is amazing. I just got an email from a guy in England raving about how much better his car runs with an OF on it. There are a lot of others that run that well or better, too. A lady back east who put a Rayfield on her speedster told me that for the first time since she bought it she is afraid to open it up as fast as it will run.
It's kind of a shame to just have them setting on the shelves in my display cabinet here where nobody ever sees them. I've been looking for some rich guy who would buy them and donate them to the museum in Richmond. I can't afford to donate them, don't need the tax writeoff (which implies you actually have some income) and once they are cleaned up and photographed there really isn't much else to do with them. I think I am going to start selling them off and put the money toward a 14 roadster or a speedster this fall.
I had to start slapping my hand buying them. I have a lot of money tied up in them and decided I needed other things worse than more carbs to set on a shelf. I've bought three Miller Masters trying to get a good one, really got screwed on one. A guy who I would have thought to be reliable had it on ebay, with a manifold he said was correct. When I got it it was obviously a repop manifold from the 70's, the flange didn't match up and the carb wasn't "close to ready to bolt on and run" as he said. It was one of those "No Returns" on ebay. I'll never buy anything else from him but he got me for over $300 on that one.
I just bought a Zenith off ebay a couple weeks ago that was supposed to be an original manifold. When I got it, it was an aluminum repop from the 70's that Townsend used to sell with a cheap Zenith carb on it. Another $200 down the drain.
Both these guys have good feedback and sell a lot of T stuff on ebay.
That's why the collection isn't growing. I decided I'm not buying anything more unless it is something really rare or I know I can trust the seller. I was pretty disappointed in these two deals. On the other hand, I've got lots of good deals on rare carbs so I shouldn't complain.
Jim, I have a couple copies of the book I did on them laying around, if you send me your snail mail address I will send you one.
I have a correct Zenith with the matching iron manifold that I plan on using on a speedster project in the near future. Does anybody out there run one now?
Anything to consider running one. I have heard they are a very good carb.
I will likely be sending it your way for a rebuild.
Hopefully it will be an easy one, carb is complete less the hot air scoop and pipe.
Stan I would like a book that you have on carbartors. John Danuser, 4898 State Road HH, Fulton, MO 65251-3730. I have a NOS Simmons vaporizor set up and a used Kingston B regenator.
Hey, John -- I'll bet Uncle Stan would swap you a carburetor book for that Simmons Vaporizer.
There's a manifold that looks like your B1 gasifier on Colorado Craigs List right now.
I think he wants $50 for it.
Is that a good buy?
$50 for a rare item such as the Kingston B-1 is a deal that you should not turn down.
1) The carb in the photo is not a Kingston B-1 gasifier. It's a Kingston-B (note the position of the hyphen) "regenerator."
2) It's missing the bowl assembly.
The story of why there are two Kingston vaporizers is still being worked on. Which came first, the gasifier or the regenerator? Did Kingston offer the regenerator off-line before Ford contracted for gasifiers, or did Kingston offer the regenerator as an improved gasifier after the Model T production stopped? Did Ford like the regenerator but insisted on some modifications?
The regenerator seems to lack the adjustable choke mixture, which I consider an advanced feature. But, the gasifier seems to have been designed to have the bowl up higher than Ford specified, and a spacer was added to lower it to the height of the Holly NH, to ensure gas flow. The regenerator may have fewer parts, but the vaporizer chamber comes apart. For cleaning?
Was the regenerator a less expensive version of the gasifier, or was it an improved gasifier? Were any regenerators installed on Fords at an assembly plant? I find no record of replacement parts for the regenerator offered by Ford.
For some reason, most Kingston vaporizers I've seen have a broken exhaust manifold. The casting is quite well executed, using vents plugged with iron spikes, yet they seem to break just beyond no. 3 port. This one is intact.
The first part to be lost is the flame arrestor. It's held by a set-screw at the side. This one is intact.
A throttle barrel that will not move due to rust is a severe problem. The throttle in the Kingston is very interesting, as the entire Venturi rotates, and not simply a plate. There is also a valve off to the right side and on the same shaft that varies the hot-vapor/cold-air mixture into the Venturi.
Still more study of the Kingston is required. All insights, facts, and speculations are welcomed.
Holley S v Kingston Y ......
l prefer the Y over the S, but the Kingston L ( although not year correct )beats both of them hands down.
A la recherche d'un carburateur Zenith 22 peut vous m'aider à pirater
l.milli @ libero.it
Será mejor pedir en inglés. Pero creo que Zenith 22 es para tractor, no Modelo T.
Kingston L4, never have any problem, never check mileage, I don't see it makes any difference as I will drive my T if it only gets 10 miles per gallon!
Je lutte pour un zénith hak 22/14
I had an NH swayback on my '24roadster ran smooth at idle, then changed to straight thru. Idled a little rough. Maybe because too much air with hi volume intake and oversized valves. Still in resto process not been down the road yet. The '26 touring does good with NH swayback though not very guttsy.
First Model T I ever drove had an SU carb. If my memory serves me it worked great. I think this was in the mid 1980's.
No tienes que luchar. Todavía creo que eso Zenith no es para Modelo T.
Just switched from a Kingston L4 (which ran very well) to a L2. Main reason? The L2 is brass and looks pretty!
That being said it seems to run as well as the L4 but starts easier and with less throttle.
Simmons vaporizer on ebay;
The original NH that came with the car. Not had to touch it.
I'm running an NH carb and it's exhaling through an aftermarket, larger-size intake manifold than would be standard on my 1915 engine.
That's the setup which came with the car, so I have nothing to which it might compare, but it idles fine and accelerates smoothly off the line. There is some low-frequency, lugging vibration as I accelerate away from the up-shift in high gear, which, I'm told, is normal for a Model T (and it doesn't seem to matter whether I up-shift at higher revs). Performance wise, the car can do well over forty, given enough straight and level road, but that's hard on the engine; and with wooden-spoke wheels and laughable brakes, common sense tells me to keep it slow and pull over periodically to let the Chicklet-shaped cars go by.
Now, I hear a lot of folks on the forum talking about how to tune and tweak the engine for optimum efficiency and from the sound of things, they do extract surprising performance. I hear talk of pushing a fully loaded car uphill, in high gear, at speeds I don't often see on level ground. This is puzzling because I'm given to understand the Model T crankshaft is an Achilles' heel; so I never open the throttle wide and don't really know just what this NH carb can do.