Montgomery Ward Tractor Conversion parts and info needed

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Montgomery Ward Tractor Conversion parts and info needed
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 09:58 pm:

I recently bought a Montgomery Ward tractor conversion. I am in need of the roller pinion gears that power the bull gear. What I know so far (or think I know) is my tractor is a 31-32 model Trail Blazer. From what others have told me and old catalog ads I think Montgomery Ward started selling the kits in 1929 mfg by the Shaw Company. They made a small rear wheel internal tooth bull gear kit till sometime in 30 or 31. Then the Peru Wagon and Wheel Co. started making the kits. They also had a small rear wheel internal tooth bull gear, but there front wheels are different as well as other details. Then in 1932 Peru Company switched to a taller rear wheel with external tooth bull gear to replace the poor design of internal tooth that trapped dirt, rocks, sticks, ect and tore up the pinion gears. They continued this design till sometime in late 30s early 40s or WWII started. My tractor uses the roller pinion and I need a pair or measurements of the assembly so I can machine one to fit. I think I can take the model T wood wheel hub and some 7/16 bolts with roller pipes on them thru the hub flange and a second flange welded to the hub to create a roller pinion similar to what was original. But it would be nice to have some measurements so I do not have to do a lot of trial and error. I will try to post some pics of the ads and my project as I found it. I have just started on it and will try to update as I go. I plan a mechanical restoration to make it work again, and leave the old girl in its "work clothes" any help will be appreciated. My e-mail address is dobro@artelco.com.

as found

as found 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

Here are a few more pics of my tractor and catalog pics

as found 3

1930 catalog ad (Shaw)

31-32 catalog (my tractor)

32 and later (tall wheels)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Hi Donnie, here is a picture of mine. I don't know the year made. I will measure up the drive and send it . It is great to see another one. We had ours in its first parade last weekend and it did great. I have figured out how to move it when the engine wont run and it involves removing the 6 bolts and rollers from one drive wheel so then you can move it. Other wise if it doesn't run, it doesn't move. Last year at a show it wouldn't start and we had to drag it with the rear wheels sliding on the grass till we could get a forklift under the rear and pick it up and he drove us to our trailor and loaded it so we could go home. This year it is running better not perfect but better. Thanks for the pictures of yours. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 01:12 pm:

Will try again. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

And againtractor conversion


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 01:36 pm:

And againtractor conversionDSCF0267.JPG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

Hi Jim: Thanks for the reply. The pics did not show up. If you can not get it to post please send it to my e-mail address dobro@artelco.com. I would like to see a good pic of the hitch drawbar area, the roller pinion, and some measurements if possible. I know the 1 ton trucks and fordsons useally will not roll but I thought these kits would. I will post a couple more pics tonight. I have rebuilt the wood bed that was on my kit at one time. Almost all my wood was gone but the bolts and some of the brackets were still there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Mullis on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 09:49 pm:

I'm jealous.
I'm still waiting to find a tractor conversion of my own.
With a pull-behind mowing deck, maybe I'll feel like cutting my grass more often.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 01:16 am:

If this thing rides like I think it will, you will not feel like doing anything else after you mow the grass. I had my wife pull me from the field to the shop. I rode the tractor about 600 feet and I thought I would need back surgery after the trip. Keep looking for your conversion. It took me about 10 years to finally get me one. I'm going to post a few more pics tomorrow of my progress. Keep watching as all input is appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 01:54 am:

Donnie, I know about the ride, mine has had the grousers removed and bandag tire recapping rubber bolted on. Last weekend as we were in the parade with every round of a rear wheel we would get a bounce and I finely saw that one of the bolts holding the rubber on the rear wheel had come part way out and as it came around we had a bump. Some guys have rolled up a band to go around the outside of the grousers and then put rubber on it so they can run on a blacktop road or even the back forty. Those grousers are killers, that is one reason farmers of the early days didn't live to long. If it isn't comfortable to drive, you wont use it. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 04:28 am:

Guys, I don't understand why you are having trouble trying to get the tractor conversions to roll if they aren't running. I haven't been around one, but reference was made to a TT not rolling. I have a TT, and all that is needed for it to roll is to put the handbrake in the neutral position. Wouldn't a tractor conversion work the same way? Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 10:46 am:

Dave,
It is a gear ratio thing. If there is the slightest drag in the clutch then that drag and all the friction in gear reductions from the transmission to the rear wheels will make it very hard to turn the rear wheels.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 11:18 am:

Dave: As Jim stated its the gear reduction. Our conversions are 11 to 1 ratio. Its easy for the little gear to turn the big bull gear, but its harder for the big bull gear to turn the little pinion gear. Factor in wear, friction, drag ect and it gets almost impossible for the parts to turn and not bind up. Your TT must be in very good shape at the rear axle. Its easy for the "worm gear" to turn the ring but hard for the ring to turn the worm. Useally the wear in the worm/ring will just bind up and not let the rear wheels turn. If your TT will roll, feel lucky. I found that a TT to roll is the exception to the rule. Donnie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

I understand the gear ratio thing, I've been messing with things mechanical for over fifty five years. If they won't roll, it must be something else that is keeping them from turning. If it was due to the gear ratio alone, a TT would slide the rear wheels every time you used the clutch. I have never seen one that wouldn't roll. I would think the same would apply to the tractor conversions. As for wear, friction and drag, that's another story. If everything is up to snuff, there shouldn't be a problem. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 01:15 pm:

Dave,
I agree that a TT should coast. Probably just a mater of scale between a TT and tractor conversion. A common ratio of a TT is 7 1/4 engine turns for one wheel turn in high. If the tractor final reduction is 11 to 1 then the ratio from the engine to the rear wheels is about 40 to 1. It would not take much clutch drag or reduction friction to make it very hard to move with the engine stopped.

My farm tractors have about the same reduction as the T conversion and they will coast with just the clutch released but their clutch fully releases and the reduction is all well lubricated with ball bearings.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

Forty to one? Jim, it would be closer to fifteen to one total(in high gear). Eleven to one plus four to one (approximately) in the rear end, unless I'm missing something(which could be very possible!) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 06:58 pm:

Dave,
The standard rear end ratio is 3.63 to 1. And if the added tractor gearing is 11 to 1 then the total ratio is 3.63 x 11 = 39.9 to 1.

If you think about it is makes sense. With the standard rear end the motor turns over 3.63 times to make the rear wheels turn once. Then with the added gearing on the tractor conversion the standard rear end where the car rear wheel was has to turn 11 times to make the tractor conversion wheel turn once. It all makes sense, the original car would go about 45 mph flat out and the tractor conversion would go about 4 mph (45/11= 4.1) at the same engine rpm. About right for a tractor.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

I took a few more pics of my Tractor Conversion. Still to hot to do much but I mounted the headlight bar and my Violet Ray lens. The pickup bed is almost done. Waiting for it to weather a little more then will linseed oil it for some protection. Next step is to rebuild the rear end and make some pinion gears.

More WardFord pics.

WardFord 2

WardFord 3

WardFord 4

WardFord 5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, August 11, 2012 - 11:27 pm:

Has anyone heard of the term "WardFord" before. I have heard it used in the Oklahoma and Arkansas Ozark mountain region in the past. Also my grandfather had one of these years ago and I remember him talking about it as a WardFord. I have had a couple people ask about the term and a long time collector of conversions thinks it may be a local or regional term only. He has never seen it in print by Montgomery Ward, or anywhere else, till I started using it in these forums. Montgomery Ward called the tractor kits a "Trail Blazer". As far as Im concerned my tractor will always be a WardFord to me, because it is what grandpa said he had. I would like to know if any one else has heard it called that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Here are 3 pics of the drive pinion that I need for my tractor. They were sent to me by a fellow conversion owner who has a tractor like mine. The last pic shows the pinion with 3 of the rollers and bolts removed. If anyone has a pair of these Im in need. Thanks.....

roller pinion 1

roller pinion 2

roller pinion 3\


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 11:49 pm:

See if your friend can mike the outside dimension across two opposite rollers and the roller diameter. Alternately measure the distance between two holes and the diameter of the hole, plus the roller diameter. Either of these measurements should give you enough info to make your pinion. If its off a little bit, you could tweak the roller diameter to make it work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 01:14 am:

Ted, I gave Donnie all of the dimentions on the rollers and the bolts as well as the hubs. Donnie should be able to make some new hubs and rollers. With his talants and tools it should be just time and some steel. The biggest problem is going to be adjusting the wheels to the rollers. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 03:20 am:

Hopefully I have the right inventor and patent for your tractor . . .

Edwin G. Staude
Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Tractor Attachment for Automobiles
Patent number: 1972694
Filing date: Aug 24, 1929
Issue date: Sep 4, 1934
http://tinyurl.com/8p5ubo2

Here is a bit of history about the man and his 143 patents . . .

2232 West Lake of the Isles Parkway: Built in 1910; Tudor in style. The structure is a 2 1/2 story, 6214 (4892 according to Minneapolis property tax records) square foot, five (four according to Minneapolis property tax records) bedroom, five (four according to Minneapolis property tax records) bathroom, 12 room, single family dwelling. The 1930 city directory indicates that Edwin G. Staude resided at this address. Edwin Gustave Staude (1876- ) was born in North Dakota, came to Minneapolis as a mechanical draftsman, and rose to become
one of Minnesota’s leading manufacturers. He already had two patents related to mowing machines before 1905. He earned a total of 143 U.S. patents in many diverse fields including envelope-making machinery, automotive equipment, phonographs, garage door openers, and power amplification systems. Through his drafting customers, he became aware of packaging problems of the burgeoning Minnesota milling industry, leading to patents related to packaging and package making machines. In 1905, he incorporated E. G. Staude Mfg. Co. to build
the machinery that he invented. In 1915, he began manufacturing tractors, leading to inventions relating to brakes, clutches, transmissions, engines, and associated automotive equipment. He continued inventing improved packaging and package machinery, which was made in Minnesota and was used all over the earth. The E. G. Staude Manufacturing Company made a shell carton machine (U.S. Patent 730,410, June 9, 1903) for the Heywood Manufacturing Company, Minneapolis, Minnesota, which was designed to make two-pound folding cartons for Quaker Oats. Staude later built and patented similar and improved machines for the Cream of Wheat Company, Minneapolis, the Ralston Purina Company, St. Louis, Missouri, the Shredded Wheat Company, Niagara Falls, New York, the Larkin Company, Buffalo, New York, Fels and Company, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the Post Cereal Company, Battle Creek, Michigan, and the W. K. Kellogg Toasted Corn Flake Company, Battle Creek, Michigan. By 1909, the shell carton machine had been improved so that it would cut and crease "wet" printed stock from a web, strip the waste, and deliver two hundred box blanks per minute. Staude also manufactured the Staude MAK-A-TRACTOR kit. His business was sold and moved out of Minnesota in the 1950's. He was inducted into the Minnesota Inventors Hall of Fame in 1991. E. G. Staude authored the Condensed life history of Edwin Gustave Staude, published in Los Angeles in 1959.

And the house he lived in during the 30's . . .



Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

Hi: The patent info was very interesting. Im not sure if its the same tractor kit. It is very similar, and sometimes the production model was different than the patent. I think Staude made the Form-a-Tractor but Im not sure. Ive posted a few pics of the days work. I made a battery box for the tractor because I do not want to see the new battery under my old tractor, I had the lid and made the rest. It is coated on the inside with POR-15 which is acid proof. As soon as it cures I'll paint the box. I also made the draw bar clamps from the info Jim gave me.... Thanks Jim.... There is a pic of his original clamp and then my new one. I guess Ill start on the rear end next.. Maybe Ill have it ready to plow by spring....Battery boxBattery box 2clampplaqueclamp jims


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:32 pm:

Looks like you are going to need some rust colored paint!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:01 am:

Hi Donnie

The Form-A-Tractor was by Albert D. Smith, who also made the Form-A-Truck kits.

The drawing in the patent that I posted above shows the Model A as the chassis,
but points out in the text that it can be used with any make of automobile.
Lines 105 to 110 on page 1, and lines 0 to 10 on page 2 mention 10 rollers meshing
with the bull gear, so I thought this could be unique to the Mak-A-Tractor design, so
I took a chance that it may be a match. You have the ‘eyes on - hands on’ knowledge
and I’m just guessing. but either way it’s going to make a fun tractor.

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim york on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 02:30 am:

Art, some of the other makers used roller drive also. Fond-a-Lac used a five roller pinion on some of their models, Jim


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