A while back, someone asked whether anyone here had tried the MT brakes for Model T's. I responded that I had bought a set but had not yet driven the car with them. That was several months ago, and I have now driven with them to quite an extent, and I am ready to report my findings.
The brake kit, as I received it, did not work. The brakes required a tremendous amount of pedal pressure to even slow the vehicle down. (The vehicle at this point was just a chassis with no body.) I reported my findings to Allan Clark, the fellow who sold me the brakes, and he suggested a different master cylinder would remedy the situation and supplied me with one. I tried that m/c and it worked marginally better, but not well. We went through the same procedure with yet another m/c, with the same results. Since Allan is in Canada and I am in the USA, anytime anything needed to be shipped it took weeks, so this process went on for a few months.
I contacted Wilwood, who supplied the cylinders and calipers, and described the situation. The tech guy there said it sounded like the pedal ratio wasn't to specs, rather than a component problem. The pedal ratio is the length between the pivot point of the pedal and the place where you push on it, compared with the length between the pivot point and the hole for the clevis which actuates the m/c. He said the pedal ratio should be 6:1 for good operation. I measured the pedal ratio on the MT brake kit, and it was 2-1/2:1. The tech guy said there was no way the brakes could work with that pedal ratio. So obviously Allan, who was selling the brake kit, had not tested the kit on a car to determine whether it would stop a Model T. If he had tried the kit on a Model T, he would have found that it would not work.
So I drilled some additional holes in the brake pedal tab, one at 4:1 and one at 6:1 pedal ratios. The braking action was progressively better, but still not adequate to stop even a chassis, much less a complete car. I reported my findings to Allan, who suggested that larger calipers would be the answer, probably using the master cylinder sent with the original kit. He sent me some money via Paypal to cover the cost of my buying the additional calipers and modifying the caliper mounting brackets to accommodate the different calipers.
By this time, I had reached the limit of my patience in dealing with this brake system, so I emailed Allan that I was no longer willing to be a tester for his product and asked for a refund of the money I had paid him for the brakes. He complied, and I have the refund.
This is the situation in a nutshell. I have tried to keep it as brief as possible, while explaining what transpired. I have spent countless hours trying to make the brakes work, because I really wanted them to. It just wasn't to be. I am not angry about all this, but I am very disappointed. I spent a lot of time on it, and my Model T still is not on the road after months of experimentation. I still do not have additional brakes on the car which will be my driver and tour car.
Allan did what he could to make things right, given the situation. We exchanged more than 75 emails over the course of this experiment, and he was helpful and encouraging. The problem is, I thought I was buying a tried and tested brake system, not an experiment.
I have spoken with Ben Hardeman, who owns Texas T Parts. Many of you know that Ben bought Bill Tharp's disc brake business after Bill developed medical issues. I bought a set of the brakes from Bill back when he still had the brakes for sale. I was very impressed with their effectiveness, as many others have been. My only complaint of the Tharp brakes is that the drums and rotors are huge and look out of place on a small-drum Model T. I expressed that sentiment to Ben, and he agreed that he had heard it as well.
After some discussion, Ben is going to develop a small-drum configuration of his brakes. It will use a regular Ford small brake drum with the rotor welded onto it, rather than the large-drum size component the system now uses. It will still be visible, of course, but it will not be nearly as obtrusive as the large-drum setup. Ben is now in the process of making up a trial set of these brakes, and he will let me test it for him. (I told him I have a lot of experience in testing disc brakes on a Model T. ) The system will use the same components as the existing system, but with smaller drums/rotors and different caliper mounting brackets. We expect the brakes to have plenty of stopping power, but we'll test them on a heavy-bodied Model T to be sure of their effectiveness before he offers them for sale. If all goes well, Ben expects to have them in production by October or November of this year.
Mike,
Thank you for the report. I had been tempted to buy a set of brakes from Allan, but had kind of been holding off for your report. Sounds like you were in charge of research and development for Allan. I will give him credit for buying different calipers and refunding your money. Maybe this will motivate him too do a R&D on his own. Mike thanks for all your work and the report. I will order a set from Ben.
Like this!
Mike, thanks for that report. Like John, I was hoping they would work but had questions about the testing and how much proven reliability they had. I feel bad for all the time you wasted on this but think you saved some other people who might be as astute as you some grief. As they say down south, "'preciate it."
Those look good, Randall. That was always my thought on how to make a set that would work and not be as unattractive as some of the designs.
Thanks Stan,not as purty as your carbs!LOL
Randall Strickland, does your brakes work with Floating Hubs?
Thanks Herm.
I had not even heard of MT brakes. I thought they were abbreviated from Rocky Mountain Brakes. From what you have posted, I think that dealer should be flagged for selling a product which does not do what it is purported to do. It's too bad the name is so similar to a really good product. Buyer beware
Norm
Herm, Not had any experance with floating hub,if drum and backing plate is in same place,I think they would work
To add a bit to what Norm said, it's interesting that in the past, several have stated that one reason for the lack of availability of accessory brake systems is the fact that people are afraid to develop accessory brakes for sale due to liability issues. And yet, here is someone who will sell accessory brake kits that he has not even bothered to test on a Model T Ford, and thanks to Mikes time, effort, persistence and initial expense, it becomes known that the brakes don't even work! Thank you Mike,.......harold
I bought a set of Bill Tharp's brakes, now sold by Ben Hardeman, and have driven them extensively. My report is: "They work great"! I'll gladly give up a little cosmetics for the safety.
On Installation I had some trouble bleeding them.
Hal - glad to hear they are working great. I too have at set of Tharp brakes that came in a box when I bought my T a few weeks ago. I began installing them today. So far installation is going well. I'm looking forward to driving and stopping!
Mike:
I was the one that asked you about the brakes. I sent Allan a down payment and he informed me that he was having troubles with the brakes. He asked me to be patient and he would attempt to solve the problem.
Allan was nice enough to keep me informed on a regular basis. He tried different things and was having problems with his supplier. Eventually he gave up and sent me a refund.
I think he deserves credit for doing the right thing.
Randall, I thought I had problems keeping the oil in my KC Warford! Seeing your photo has re-assured me that perhaps my problem is not so bad after all. I would still like it to be better though.
Allan from down under.
Allan, i had trouble with oil leaking around the shifter on my KC Warford,so i vented it and no more leaks,i used a bushing and a tubing adapter and ran it up to the frame.
I have been driving it that way for five years, i think you can get a vent from TTP or from lane.
Rick
Too bad you had to suffer all that, Mike.
6:1 is about what I have on the ol' brass picup with 4-wheel drum brakes. That tab is pushing a 3/4" MC, which is same as wheel cyls. It will stop short enough to make your eyes water.
You need greater leverage with discs. A 17 mm MC is used on the Porsche 914 with 4-wheel discs and no power assist.
C'mon, Shu, when are you going to start selling front drums?
This is the hot setup. The pedal moves the MC for front drum brakes, and a slave cyl moves the stock rear brake in the tranny.
rdr
Allen,it looks worse than it really is! mine is a old one.don't clean it to often,it matches the rest of the car.LOL
Slightly off the subject but as extra pressure is needed for disc brakes what about a vacuum power booster?
This one was fitted to a 1912 T with Rocky mountain brakes by one of our country members, you can see how the booster is used to pull on the cables to the Rocky Mountains.
A systen which used the booster to apply prssure to the master cylinder which they normally do might help a lot especially if its hard to get the required leverage ratio.
A 17mm MC will give 25% more pressure for same pedal push than a 19 mm MC.
I thought it might be interesting to ask MT Brakes directly about their Pedal Ratio, and sent them this e-mail yesterday:
Hello — What is the Pedal Ratio (pivot-to-pedal-pad length vs pivot-to-cylinder-rod length) for the MT brakes?
Thank you, Chris Bamford
And received this reply today:
Chris, thanks for your interest. We have used various set ups for both rear and 4 wheel sets but mainly use 1:6. Unfortunately due to excessive import, export and shipping issues we have suspended production.