4:1 to 5:1

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 4:1 to 5:1
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 02:43 pm:

Any recent experience changing from 4:1 to 5:1 in the steering gears? Quality of new parts? Fit?

Experience with 5:1 with 30x3.5 tires?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 03:28 pm:

Steve: Changed them out in my 25 Roadster, best thing I did. Look for old stuff, if you can not find any come see me. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

My '15 was switched over to 5:1 steering gears. The gentleman who did the work for me had forty years of experience with Model T's and found that the aftermarket parts wouldn't fit. The advertising says that the changeover involves little more than switching out the steering shaft, the three little planetary gears and the sun gear, so, had the parts fit correctly, it would have been a fairly simple job. Completing the job involved switching out the 1915 gear case with a 1926 unit. To make that look right, the nickel plating had to be removed from the '26 gear case and the solid brass beneath, polished. I'm told it was a bear of a job.

On the other hand, the 5:1 steering handles just great and feels stable, even at 40+ mph.

Now, the Model T parts suppliers with whom I've done business have always stood behind their products, so if it were me, I'd order the parts and if a perfect fit didn't happen right off the bat, I'd either ask for an exchange or a refund. I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask in advance about the supplier's return policy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

Has anyone else had a problem changing from 4:1 to 5:1?

I'm planning on doing this change over on my early '25 TT that presently has 30 x 3 1/2 wheels on the front and 4:1 and would appreciate any additional input on this topic.

Has anyone else had problems like Bob had?

Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 10:01 pm:

I've done it with original parts. Never tried any of the reproduction stuff. It fit the early gear cases just fine in a '14, a '15, a '17 and a '12.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 11:10 pm:

I have tried it and failed. I don't frankly see how it can ever work since the pitch of the gears is different but some swear it works but every time this thread starts out there seems to be those that state it is impossible. I am one of those. I tried it twice. On both of them I tried original 5 to 1 gears in a brass early case and then also tried repro gears in there too. Neither would work. I can only say that the gear case and gears in all were new to NOS parts and I could not assemble them without splitting the case since it was a total locked up tight fit that would not allow the last planet gear to go in. I ended up in both cases just pulling the case and gears out of a 26 and buffing off the plating to then fit it into the 1916 steering column housing. Same as Bob Coiro stated - that is what I did too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 11:37 pm:

I changed to 5to1 on both my '23 TT and the '25 coupe and they went together with absolutely no problems. However, I did use original used parts. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 11:40 pm:

WARNING: NEWBIE ALERT

Why would you need to change the ratio on the steering?

My 27 coupe feels just fine to my admittedly less-than-experienced hands.

But dang, it actually steers pretty dang good.

But I guess, now that I think about it, the gears in it could have been changed at some point in the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 11:54 pm:

Danial - the 5:1 steering ratio was introduced in the 25 model year, so you have it already.

Now if you'd like to have a period accessory steering gear then that's something else.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/150869543087


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 12:02 am:

Thanks Roger.

I love this place. A day doesn't go by that I don't learn something from one of you gurus.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 12:28 am:

In the 1925 model year, 5:1 steering was introduced along with balloon tires.

Last year I converted the early brass, riveted, steering case on my Barnyard Cruiser from 4:1 to 5:1. It involved changing the gear set and steering shaft. I am not sure the project would work with NOS parts as the fit using my worn parts was very tight.

I mounted the steering column in the car but did not connect the pitman arm to the shaft. The gears were carefully tapped into place. A tablespoon of TimeSaver compound was mixed with the grease used to pack the steering case. I screwed the cap on and attached the steering wheel.

The gears did not bind but the steering was very stiff for the first hundred or so revolutions. After rotating the wheel for about 5 minutes in both directions the steering was still stiff but not difficult.

I then pulled everything to pieces cleaned the parts, reassembled and repacked the case.

There is no slop in the steering and the whole front end is tight and responsive.

The last photo is of a famous 500 mile endurance driver shaking down the "Cruiser" at Eureka this spring.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Thanks guys. I was under the mistaken impression that you could just change the gears. I see the "5" on the shaft that someone else told me of offline. so it sounds like worth the effort and best done with original and/or NOS parts. I will add it to my list of tweaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

The biggest issue in getting the gears to fit is that even Ford themselves mixed 20 degree gear system parts with 14-1/2 degree system parts for this change. Engineer 101 will tell you that's supposedly a no-no. I've always been convinced that while Ford called them 20 degree parts...Ford in fact probably cut 'bastard gears' that were not really quite 20 degree parts but definitely not 14-1/2 either. And so the saga continues.

Many do not believe me because they think it preposterous, yet it IS a fact that most companies who cut their own gears 'in the era' did so 'on the sly' with in-house design and manufacturing standards and not the normal gear standards. Open up the pitch circle a little bit over standard on one gear, reduce the pitch circle on the other by an equal amount, use a cutter modified to accommodate this geometry and no one was the wiser...until the aftermarket guy made a standard 14-1/2 or 20 degree gear to supposedly 'fit' using the real rules and the answer was either an immediate lock up and loss of backlash, or, loose as a goose depending on which gear was changed. Yes, industrial 'intellectual property' control WAS done this way by many, and the only way to catch such a sly is to have a 'Measurement over Wires' inspection test. This practice ran rampart in industry to keep the aftermarket guys out or cause them grief and "aggro" with their product, until WW2 where the government contracts forced compliance to AGMA standards in gear design and manufacturing in order to have interchange in the field. I can't prove that Ford did this or did not do this, but such practice was conventional wisdom for most at the time.

This is why patience and Timesaver 'work'...the 'spider' establishes fixed centers, and an involute (tooth profile) will always form to suit the running pitch diameters anyway in time, but Timesave actually laps it away as dust and not by pitting and galling from being too tight to begin with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 01:05 pm:

The New steering kit Mic's out perfect, it is the Gear cases that have to be fixed. I had my tool, and Die maker build a jig to fix the problem.

The gear case has to be centered, and in most cases, about 1, to ,2 thousandths has to be taken off the Gear Case teeth, to true the Case, and not always every tooth, that is the early Cases. I have not put any kits in the 26-27's.

The Gear Cases do not wear center, always off center.

I have a New Old Stock, 17, to 25 Gear Case, and it would have to be run through the jig also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 01:10 pm:

I took some pictures of the Jig.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 01:04 pm:

George,

You're correct about early gear manufacturing in the pre-AGMA days. There were earlier standards however, such as Brown & Sharpe, and I believe that those standards were largely adhered to. Problem was, a gear of one standard didn't necessarily work well that of another, even when a shop didn't fudge the rules.

Even today weird stuff is done to make a gear train or ratio or operating center distance come out right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 02:13 pm:

I converted from 4:1 to 5:1 in the Speedster way back when. It was better, but not good enough for my driving, so I installed a '37 Ford box and made the pitman arm for 10:1. I like it.

"If your T doesn't have era correct finish/paint, you would be a hypocrite to criticize the mods I do."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 12:42 am:

I converted my daughter's 1915 Speedster and my 1924 coupe to 5:1. You have to change the three gears and the center shaft. The only problem was on the coupe as the roof got in the way of pulling out the old shaft. The speedster went very easily. Bought the parts at Model T Haven in Kansas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 12:21 pm:

Thanks to all of you for your help and ideas on making the change from 4:1 to 5:1. I'll be doing this conversion this winter and will report trhe results.

Thanks again, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

I suppose you'll have it all together for the Kanabe tour next July, Keith. Looking forward to seeing you there. Maybe I'll try to scrounge up a 26-27 steering column for the touring. I've got several steering columns but don't know the ratios.
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 04:34 pm:

Hi Noel - We'll be taking our '26 Roadster Pickup to Kanab and it already has 5:1. The conversions I'm planning on are for our '14 Touring and our '25 TT.

You can tell 5:1 gears and shaft pretty easy. The shaft has a "5" on the flange at the top of the steering shaft as shown on Robb Wolff's post above. You can count the teeth on the gears to determine if they're 5 or 4:1, and the gears also have a "5" on them.

For the first 40 years that I owned Model T's, they were all '26 & '27's with 5:1. Then when we got our '14 with stock 4:1 and the smaller steering wheel, that quick steering was quite an adjustment. I'll be much happier when they all steer about the same.

Carol and I look forward to seeing you and Theresa in Kanab.

Best wishes, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:08 am:

Also, another way to identify a 5to1 shaft is one side of the "triangle" is straight, as in the second photo that Rob Wolff posted. On the 4to1 shafts, all three sides are curved inward. At least that has been my experience. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 10:40 pm:

I did the change on both my running T's and the speedster column that aint finished yet.It is easy but time consumeing.What I did was find 26-7 columns that had severe cosmetic problems.Like the orignal column from the chassis I built the speedster from was cut up and allmost off by hacksaw.
You can buy new rivots out of the catalog,take the old steering gear out of your column,clean up the parts from the 5-1 and install it and use the new rivots.
I wouldnt mix the gears.That would be dangerous.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 02:50 am:

I can't believe that Sprague Ford Model T Steering Box on ebay went for $2708.88 ! There are whole cars to be had for that price !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 11:47 am:

Rare!! in 60 yrs of buying parts I've never seen the first one yet


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration