What year touring?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: What year touring?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 02:47 pm:



Here's my aunt Jereldine Parker, a teacher at IXL School, visiting with a mom in a Ford out in front of the school. I think this would be about 1930. I was labeling a copy of this for a cousin yesterday, and I wasn't sure about the car. Obviously 1923-1925, but I'm not expert enough to get more specific. Can anyone pin down the exact year of the car.?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 02:51 pm:

1925. It has the new style tailight, and a rear view mirror, and 21" wheels, and a one piece rear window, and it appears to have the 17" steering wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 02:53 pm:

Looks like it may have had the wheels changed. It looks like to me they are the later 21" and not the usual 30x3 1/2.
Maybe its the lighting but they look like the later ballon style tires. They look 'fatter'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 04:45 pm:

John,

Those are the wheels & tires a 1925 is supposed to have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 04:46 pm:

....Unless you special ordered the car with 30 x 3.5 tires, which some did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 07:45 pm:

I had thought that the 21" tires came in about mid 25. But thats a guess since Ford and its dealers didnt always go exactly by the change orders given at the factory.
They just used up what they had first.
But that can be debated either way.
Anyway they are definately 'Model T'


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 07:51 pm:

Steve,

Great photo. Not stated before but clearly we are assuming the parts were not swapped out on the car. Looking at the photo it appears it has enough miles on it that some items could have been swapped out -- we just don't know.

I believe a key dating items is the 21 inch balloon wheels and tires which from what I understand would put the car as a 1925 model. According to Bruce (RIP) for the 1925 model cars he has at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1925.htm

WHEELS: Used 30 by 3 tires in front; 30 by 3-1/2 in the rear on non-demountable-equipped open cars. Front wheels used taper-roller (Timken) bearings except in the non-starter, non-demountable open cars. Hub caps were unchanged from 1924. Demountable-rim wheels were standard on closed cars, and optional on the open models; used 30 by 3-1/2 tires all around. 21” balloon tires and wheels were available as an option.
If you look at the 1924 model year, the 21 inch balloon tires and wheels were not yet offered.

Note also that same page shows 64,399 tourings were sold without a starter and with the non-demountable wheels 30 x 3 up front and 30 x 3 ˝ in the rear. And they list 626,813 touring sold with starting equipment and demountables but it does not break down how many were 30 x 3 ˝ or how many were 21 inch balloon demountables.

So while Jerry is correct that many owners purchased 1925 cars with the balloon tires, my understanding from above is any demountable was an accessory in 1925 for the open cars and the 30 x 3 1/2 demountable was standard on the closed cars with the 21 inch balloon tire an option for any car.

Additional information:

First mention of the 5:1 steering gear ratio in Bruce’s encyclopedia dealing with documentation is at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm

OCT 30, 1924 Acc. 1701 Model T Releases, Ford Archives
T-5044B1 steering gear assembly, L.H control, 5 to 1 gear ratio adopted for use on T chassis with 21 by 4.40 tires.

And at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm

JAN 6, 1925 Acc. 1701, Model T Releases, Ford Archives
Specified use of 17" steering wheel on all chassis instead of those with 21 by 4.40 tires

FEB 5, 1925 Letter from the Chicago Branch
We are rather interested in knowing about what proportion of prospects would be interested in Ford Cars, both open and closed, equipped with balloon tires. Say for instance, if an additional price of $25.00 for the balloon equipment, less of course, the regular discount to the dealer were charged, what proportion of cars do you suppose you would ask us to ship you so equipped if the company decided to furnish balloon tires?
It would probably depend largely on your answer whether or not balloon tire equipment would be used as standard equipment on part of our production.

Note the Feb 5, 1925 letter indicates Ford USA had not decided to make the balloon tires standard on any of their production open or closed – but they wanted to know if there was or was not a demand for the equipment.


MAR 6, 1925 Letter from Firestone Tire and Rubber Co., Ford Archives
The Ford Motor Company have (sic) approved the Balloon tire and furnish it as original equipment. This offers you an opportunity for increased sales and profit. New car sales --- changeovers from hundreds of present Ford owners, who will want to bring their cars up to date and enjoy the comfort, safety and economy of Balloon tires.
Indicating they were an option and perhaps a test case before this date?


AUG 26, 1925
With the introduction of the 1926 Improved Models Cord tires are now standard equipment on all Ford cars.
Note that was in the announcement but at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1926.htm for the 1926 year model cars Bruce what Bruce wrote below indicates it did not completely occur until early calendar year 1926:
NOTE: Starter and 21” demountable wheels were standard on all cars after early calendar 1926. Early 1926 [Hap: produced during calendar year 1925 and perhaps first part of calendar year 1926] cars with 30 by 3-1/2” demountables (then standard equipment) were 10 pounds lighter than the later cars.
Additionally Bruce in his out of print book stated, the rectangular rear windshield was introduced during the last part of 1925 production and continued on into the 1926-27 years. But for some reason he removed that comment from the 1925 information in his on line and CD version of his encyclopedia. If anyone has some information on why he may have removed that – please let us know. Note Lang’s, still has the rectangular rear window listed as correct for late 1925 cars. And the original Ford factory photos of the 1925 pickups on page 365- 367 of Bruce’s book show the single rectangular window for the photos taken Dec 12, 1924 and Feb 28, 1925. Which again would be pointing to a 1925 car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, August 13, 2012 - 08:47 pm:

Steve, Do you know where that picture taken? That might be an indication where it was built... which could help identify why it was accessorized as it was. (Detroit VS a more remote assy. plant).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:14 am:

All 1925's had the windshield drilled for the rear view mirror and wiper, whether you bought them or not. According to my original 1925 price list of parts, the rear view mirror was $1.25, and the wiper was $1.00. 21" wheels were an option, and could also be had with a natural finish, but the 30 X 3 1/2's could not. Not long ago, there was a non-starter '25 touring here in town. We did an article on it for the Vintage Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:40 am:

It took me a long time to figure out the location, but in today's language it's the corner of 61st Road and 322nd Road, looking east. In those days the two lane concrete road was US 77 (note the highway sign left of the car) and the dirt road crossing it was an unnamed country road. Today the view of the trees left of the car would be blocked by IXL Baptist Church.

I would guess the nearest Ford assembly plant was in KC (a couple hundred miles northeast), unless there was one in OKC (about a hundred miles south).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 07:44 pm:

Steve,

Oklahoma City, OK plant produced 21,198 tourings in calendar year 1924 and 19,451 tourings during Calendar year 1925. [ref page 466 & 468 Bruce's book and CD]. for both years those numbers are for tourings with starters (which usually but not always came with demountable rims). The 1925 model year would have run roughly Aug 1924 to Aug 1925 (ref page 311 and his CD).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:18 pm:


This afternoon I stopped at the corner where that picture was taken about 1930. One of the owners of the old school building was there. After he took a picture of his daughter in my car, we went for a short ride. She was pretty impressed, and told her dad he should get one.


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