Engine trouble, going back together

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Engine trouble, going back together
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 04:59 pm:

Rather than add to the already really long thread I had up originally, I figured I'd start a new one. If you wonder where I am now, you can check the old thread "Engine trouble, I broke something . . ."

Turns out I learned lots of great things!

I smeared the #4 piston so that the rings were locked in place, that's where the burnt oil was coming from. That got taken care of with honing the cylinders and installing new pistons and rings.

Also, since installing the pistons I set the valve lash to 0.014. I read a TON of different numbers on what it should be and ended up going with this number because all but 2 or 3 were right there anyway. I lapped the valves as well, however after installing the head and doing a compression check, I found that #1 and #4 had significantly lower compression than #2 and #3.

This would explain partly why from the pictures it appears that #1 and #4 were significantly richer than #2 and #3. They weren't getting as good compression and thus did not burn as well. I've got the head back off and am double checking the valves for #1 and #4 and going to lap them again really well and see if that fixes my problem.

I put duct tape over the ports and turned the engine over and found that #1 and #4 were losing a lot of compression through the exhaust valve on each, those will receive the most attention.

Also, where the engine was sticking in one spot, turns out the cam lobe for exhaust on #1 was rubbing against the front cam bearing. That bearing has been replaced and engine turns over smoothly without sticking. Also have cam shaft thrust kit installed.

Will update after I've finished lapping valves again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott McBrook on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 05:20 pm:

Good job on engine! I was afraid you'd tear it down and find the problem was something like a bad coil or totally unrelated. Hope to not need this info for a long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 05:42 pm:

Seth - For what it's worth, to help determine the cause of the couple cyls with lower compression, I think I'd have given it a wet and dry compression test.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 05:52 pm:

Explain wet and dry compression test please sir.

New info: really lapped the valves well but exhaust valves for #1 and #4 are very pitted. They seat nicely but I'm still getting low compression on 1 and 4 and it seems like it's leaking out the exhaust valves. They are newer style 1 piece valves. The seats look great to me everywhere. I'll see if I can get some pics of of the valves once I get the head off again. *rolling eyes* This head on, head off stuff is getting old quick.

Not trying to jump to conclusions but would this be a lot easier by just getting new valves? I can get the ones I have measured in case they are oversize (I doubt that they are) and make sure I get the correct ones. Let me know what ya'll think. I'm going to the driving range and will resume this craziness when I get back and check the forum. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

Seth are the valve springs ok?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 05:59 pm:

Googled wet compression test and went ahead and tried it on #1 and #4, in both cases compression was about the same, indicating that as I suspected the valves are leaking. Intake valves look really good, but both exhaust valves very pitted. I'm think I'll just replace those two and be on my merry way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 06:03 pm:

Steve, I think so, as I've had each one off they all feel the same to me. None of them are broken or or bent funny anywhere. If I had the money, I'm so frustrated at this point I'd just jerk the whole engine out and just re-do EVERYTHING. Continually hitting a snag at every turn is getting old. I don't mind tinkering and tweaking and fixing stuff but every time I turn around on this blasted engine throws something new at me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 06:16 pm:

Are the valves opening the same amount? If the camshaft is worn it will affect the compression.

If I had pitted valves I would either grind them or replace them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 06:42 pm:

Lapping may not get those valves to seat. You may need to cut the valves and seats. A local machine shop can do the work. You may need to take a bit off the end of the valve to compensate for the cuts. John

Flame on


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

If you are sure the valves are leaking, they need to be reground and the seats ground as well.

If you are sure the valves are sealing, don't be concerned about the compression yet. It should improve as the new rings are seated. After about 1,000 miles check the compression and you will find it is better than it is now. Also if it burns a little oil at first, that is also normal until the rings have seated.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

I bet the faces in the seats are getting REAL wide which will keep the valve from seating properly.
The easiest way to cure that is have a shop add a 3 angle grind to the valves to narrow the face on the valve.
If the valves didn't already have a 3 angle grind you can lap yourself to hellenback and the seat will LOOK good but not seal.
Did you do any kind of test to SEE that the valves are making contact all around?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:00 am:

Seth, the 3 angle seats are the way to go. They can be ground in the block and they move the actual seat farther away from the deck. The 45 degree angle can be made narrow enough to enhance the seat and will be a lot easier to lap. My opinion is to have the seats cut instead of ground. Then either replace the valves and springs. Or test the springs you've got and find someone with a seat refacer and have the original valves reground. Assuming of course the originals aren't already too far gone. Something else to look at is the tops of the lifters. Are they dished from hammering on the valve stems for the last 90 years? If the block isn't to badly eroded and pitted a very good valve job can be done with the engine in the car. However if the block is too far gone, it's time to pull the engine apart and have your favorite machinist install replaceable hardened seats. Once again just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:07 am:

That's something different Craig! 3 angle grind on the valve, seats yes, I think a hair line seat on a hard valve would soon cut into the soft cast seat of the block set up that way, loosing your tappet clearance a lot quicker.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:08 am:

Seth
After lapping the exhaust valves you can check them through the exhaust port with compressed air providing the manifold is off.
Put a couple or three drops of oil around the seam of the valve and seat in the closed position pressurize that port and look for separation or bubbles in the oil around the exhaust valve, you can check each one like this... might save you from removing the head over and over.
If you have an air duster nozzle and a 25 cent rubber ball drill a hole in the ball same size as the air nozzle put a little silicone RTV sealer on it push the nozzle through the hole in the ball “let dry”, now take the tool you just made and push into the exhaust port while holding the nozzle you can start to pull the trigger and put air pressure into the port if it's not sealed off you should see it push the oil away where the leak is or sometimes even a bobble...
Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:18 am:

Apparently if Seth had done a wet/dry compression test his results would have been misleading. Zero or no compression on a cylinder after adding oil GENERALLY means bad valves. In his case he'd wrecked a piston and locked the rings. If he hadn't pulled the pistons and just did the valves he'd be in the same zero comp. condition. I understand a slight mark on the cylinder wall was a tip off + his decision to replace them added up to locating this problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:32 am:

I had hard seats put in for all the valves and I use stainless valves. Work great after 10 years.
Charlie he said he put in all new pistons and rings and honed the cylinders. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:42 am:

Kerry, I mentioned nothing about a hairline seat.
The 3 angle grind removes only the "corners" at the top and bottom of the valve head so the valve can be better lapped in and seat better without the bottom edge mucking up things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:47 am:

Trying to lap in an old fashioned valve in a widened seat is like trying to drive a post into a boulder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:48 am:

Crap, I thought I had it all figured out but it's getting late and after reading too much of this particular thread I've become a little weary, so I'm going to let y'all continue this relevant conversation and I'm going to bed. Please be aware though, Seth came here for advice and answers and we probably shouldn't muddy the waters too much because of to many correct opinions that are in conflict with each other. Until tomorrow, Good Night guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:52 am:

Craig, and what sort of a seat cut are you recommending for such a valve set-up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 01:01 am:

Not the seat.....the valve.
Just knock off the corners at the upper and lower edges of the face.
I even did hit & miss engine valves that way.
It makes life easier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:20 am:

Lol, thanks for all the input. One thing to try and remember is that I don't have the discretionary income that some of you gents have. If I had it my way I would pulled the engine and done a complete rebuild. I'd really like to get hardened seats installed but some of this stuff is just going to have to work for now. I've got a little bit to play with, but pistons/rings/front cam bearing has cleaned me out until next pay day.

Steve, I like the ball-tool check, will try that (anything other than head on, head off is a great idea).

As for the valves/seats: All of the seats look great. All of the intake valves look great and seal great from what I can tell. The lifters are not dished because they are basically brand new adjustable lifters that were installed on the original rebuild by my great-grandfather in the 70's. The problems I'm having are a result of basically running an engine too hard that wasn't completely broken in from a rebuild, and the fact that it has basically sat still since the 70's. (There's more info on that in the older thread)

The only problems I'm having are with the two exhaust valves that look rough from pitting. I'm going to pull the head today and get the offending valves out and see if I can get them sweetened up either by cutting or 3 angle grind and lapping. There's a really good machine shop here where the gentleman specializes in older engines and has great prices, but he's up to his ears in work (go figure). I don't want to wait 3 weeks. There's another guy I'm going to try and if it works, great, if not then I'll order 2 new valves and see what that gets me.

The general idea I'm picking up on is that having a big wide flat surface on the valve and the seat is not conducive to sealing well. Conversely, a nice skinny ring on at least the valve is a lot better, ergo the 3 angle grind.

WORST case scenario I end up having to wait and get new seats/valves and have to wait on having the machine shop get around to installing the seats for me. Sorry for the long posts, there's a lot to respond to and explain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:33 am:

Seth,I am just north of Mt Airy NC,drop the valves in the mail and I will reface them for free.Randall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 09:28 am:

Sounds like a deal to me! I sent you a PM Randall, if you'll just shoot me your email address I'll have these babies headed out your way today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:43 am:

A couple of things. The narrow seat will cause any carbon particle to break off. Whereas a wider seat could cause the carbon to stick to the seat or valve causing it not to seal. If you just lapped the valves, there should be no carbon under the valve unless some was knocked loose when the head was installed.

Don't get the seat too narrow. you want enough surface to take the heat from the valve head and transfer it to the block where the coolant will cool it.

If you have the head on, you can test for a valve leak by turning the engine so the piston is at top dead center after the compression stroke, and blow compressed air into the spark plug hole. If the valve is leaking air will come out through the port. This test is good for both intake or exhaust valves. A piston ring leak will cause air to come out the crankcase breather.

It is good to be sure of the cause of a problem before tearing into something so you don't do more than it takes to fix it.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 11:34 am:

Roger that. I can try that as well before I remove the valves today. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty confident that the issue is those exhaust valves. 2 and 3 have solid compression that is virtually identical. Also, coming up on the compression stroke, I can literally hear the air leaking out of the exhaust port.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 11:47 am:

My 2 cents....

You can buy new valves by the "each." Lang's carries them in stainless for 7.25 each. If it were me I would change all of the valve springs just because of the time they have sat unused.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:24 pm:

Seth,

Leaking compression at 1 & 4, I'm wondering if your head is flat, (cylinder head that is!). If the head is warped you'll never get it sealed up. Have you checked it with a straight edge?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 05:02 pm:

Alright, tried Norman's test and I'm definitely leaking air through the ports. I have taken the head off and the valves out.

Mr. Randall: I'd be glad to send you the valves but I need your address in order to do so. I'll have them in a box with the return shipping already set up and paid for as well as some money for your help.

I'm trying to get the car ready before Labor Day weekend because I'm going to visit my grandfather at the War Veterans home in Augusta, GA. He gave the T to me. I'd really like to take the car along and let him ride in it, but if I can't get it fixed by then it'll just have to wait for another time.

I was hoping to get the valves in the mail today, but I can wait until tomorrow and see if Randall emails me back. If not, I'll try and find someone locally that might can do it pretty soon. If THAT doesn't work, I'll just order some new ones and see how they seal, then lap them if they aren't sealing great. If even that doesn't work then I'll take it to the machine shop and get them to cut me some new seats. Hopefully this gets worked out before that point though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 06:34 pm:

Seth,just got home,sent you e mail
Randall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 07:13 pm:

Seth, I just got back to this thread and think I came up with a low cost, low tech fix. First run down to the hardware store and purchase a product call JB Weld. Now understand this miracle product is a 2 part mix. One is the epoxy like material and the other is a hardening agent...

Oops I'll be right back, my neighbor is refusing to take his meds again and... I gotta go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 07:52 pm:

JB Weld may be a miracle product, and I have used it, but it will not work to fix pits in a valve face. It cannot take the heat or the pounding a valve is subjected to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

How do you know that it won't work. Have you ever tried to fix a valve with it? :-) I haven't either but what the heck, the only thing he's got to lose is a couple tubes of crap and some time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

Could be some interesting results if that stuff ended up in the bore!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:41 pm:

Oh sure and maybe he'll end up needing a ring job. But hey, even Edison didn't have all the answers right away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:46 pm:

Come on now Mike. Think about it. The cost of the JB weld is almost the price of a new valve. We should give good advice here not some wives tale to fix a car. Its Seth that will have to pay for the repairs not you. I love my T,s enough to do a repair right, how about you?
We need to keep our cars safe and in good order or we will miss out on the Ice Cream. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 09:17 pm:

Okay, I'm sorry, I was just being a tad facetious. And how do I know that Seth won't take the valves and use JB Weld on them and really mess up his Model T's motor. It was wrong for me to lead him along and let him think JB Weld was a reasonable fix. So all that being said how do you feel about wrapping the valve with a thin piece of Duct tape?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

Don't worry, Mike uses JB weld on the two piece valves to make them one piece again. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:58 pm:

LOL a thin piece of duct tape? Nice. No, they're going in the mail to Mr. Randall tomorrow, and hopefully he'll be able to get them back in the mail by Saturday if his schedule permits.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 11:13 pm:

Sounds like a good plan Seth. Good luck with your project. Doug, if you keep giving away all my secrets I'm going to have this bunch constantly calling me to fix their cars. Oh, did I mention I hope you get your JB Weld mixed up with your K-Y Jelly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 07:53 am:

So it's taken a little while to get the valves tweaked and back to me, but Randall did a great job with them and I've got the engine about 80% back together.

After work today I'm hoping to get it back together the rest of the way and fire it up. I've got the oil pan cover, hot shot battery (that's going to take the longest because I didn't like where I had it and am going to re-route the location and wires), horn, and then a quick block flush before installing the radiator.

Since this will be the first time its run with new pistons and rings, is there a certain way I should "break-in" the engine? My dad's auto-shop teacher from high school was pretty adamant about how to break in the freshly rebuilt inline 6 in my sister's '55 Chevy (he's a family friend anyway) but he was so serious about it that he came over and did it himself. He said that it needed to be run and slowly move the RPMs up and down for about an hour and make sure not to let it idle. Was wondering if that or something similar applied to the T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 08:39 am:

I was always taught load the cylinders with pressure but don't let the RPMs get too high. In other words, accelerate hard but not too fast. I'm sure others have their theories too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Diederich on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:14 am:

Seth, Look in the green book and time/set
the valves. I did it on my 1917 and it runs very well. The procedure sets the valves by the position of the piston. A friend of mine helped do mine and the differance is amazing. Good luck with your problem. Bob Diederich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:32 am:

Seth your shop teacher friend stated exactly what I'd heard years ago concerning new or re-built engines. Even on new cars years back the advice was vary the driving conditions (street/highway). You don't hear it now a days but it was common as break-in oil was.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:14 am:

Bob, I have set the valve lash on all the valves after I got them back from Randall.

Roger that Charlie, I may not do it for an hour, but I'll 'break in' the engine the same way. I'm ready to get off work and get back to the T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:23 am:

Now I use J B Weld to fix a lot of things. But engine valves will NOT be one of them!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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