Uh - Oh ! Cause & Effect

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Uh - Oh ! Cause & Effect
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

Results of a "went missing" band adjustment nut which subsequently removed a magnet clamp, which got caught in the field coil, which unraveled towards the bottom, locked up the engine, and I'm assuming the magnet clamp "took out" the funnel of the internal oil tube. Too bad as this block has an EE crank, Sunghanee (sp) aluminum pistons, S.S. valves w/adjustable lifters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 08:45 pm:

Ugh..

It's sure a good thing magnetos are so reliable and easy to repair...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:49 pm:

hopefully you can replace the broken parts and keep the engine.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:50 pm:

I always used to worry about field coils unravelling, or magnets breaking off from my defective and damaged magneto. Now I have peace of mind, and much better service access.
paddles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

Seems to me that Steve said the cause was a band nut. Hard to fault the mag for that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

No it's not R.V. You just post the same thing JohnH posted and figure you're done. I've got a question; How is it that the band adjusting nut "went missing"? And is this something I should be concerned with happening in one of my T's?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

Like John H says, if the mag weren't there...

The mag is an accessory, and I can't think of a more expensive, inaccessible accessory than the mag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 10:37 pm:

Ricks I couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I wouldn't have a T without it. But to each his own. Also I'd like to say; the purpose of cause and effect is to find the root cause. The root cause in this case wasn't the nut coming off and getting into the coils. The root cause might be the reason for the nut coming off. Negligence, wear, broken parts????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:04 pm:

Ralph, like a loose nut couldn't get caught in the triple gears! How accessible would that damage be? Whats next, get rid of the transmission?

Mike, How do you think a band nut went missing... It either fell off or fell in. If it fell off it wasn't tight or the washer was bad. If it fell in... who knows?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:16 pm:

There's a lot less room for stuff to sling around with all those magnets and bobbins in there. A magnet would pick up the nut and throw it, time after time, until it caused mischief. Without magnets, a loose nut would tend to fall to the bottom, you would think, huh?

Has there ever been another car with a magneto in the tranny and magnets on the flywheel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:30 pm:

The mag is an accessory? Like a piston is a T accessory?
How can an integral part of the car be an accessory?
Anyway.......Mike, if the band springs, notched washers and adjusting nuts are in good shape there's nothing to worry about.
I recently changed a couple washers and nuts because the washers were nearly smooth and WERE something to worry about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:34 pm:

Ricks. This is a model t ford forum. Promoting modern upgrades and denigrating the cars design at any opportunity..whats your point?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:46 pm:

So what caused the nut to not be where it belonged. That might be the "root" cause. What the nut did was the effect. Did the nut drop because of the smooth washers. If so that would be the "root" cause. Because as Craig said "if the band springs, notched washers and adjusting nuts are in good shape there's nothing to worry about". Craig, it appears JohnH feels the mag isn't a necessity because he's got some sort of external spark making device that in his opinion makes the magneto an accessory. My opinion is that the magneto, coils, timer and rest of the original ignition system is what gives the Model T it's mystique. I guess if someone put a 2013 four cylinder Chevrolet motor in a model t we could bypass a lot of the inconvenience of the breakdowns that are inherent to a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:55 pm:

Well, mystique or not, the magneto is PART OF THE CAR.
It's not some factory or after market add-on accessory as if you could order the car without it.
This is going to go the way of the (STUPID) great water pump crapola.......ARGH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:56 pm:

Exactly Mike. Working with model t technology takes patience and is an integral part of the hobby. We have had decades to improve and modify the car. Its already been done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:02 am:

Nice Craig, behind ya all the way. But I've got a question for you; detergent or non-detergent? Bwahahahahahahahaha


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:07 am:

Since you asked......detergent 5W30....... right back atcha....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:08 am:

Now you made me smile. Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:13 am:

The magneto is no more an integral part of the car than the optional generator. It is an accessory in that any T can run fine without it. You don't run a T without pistons. Fords and all other cars built before and after the T run without the low tension magneto.

Am I trying to shuck you guys? I wouldn't bother with this, but for all the crap thrown about things like thermostats and E-Timers.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:41 am:

But Ralph, the fact all Model T's came from the factory with the magneto. That makes them integral doesn't it? It may be something that can easily be replaced with a much better system, it still came in every Model T. I agree the generator wasn't integral but the fact the magneto came in the car from the factory and was the only ignition system in the car when it rolled out the door, it was integral to the car. And because I want my Model T to be like the way it was when it came out of the factory it's still integral to "my" car. And in all honesty, my car isn't even close to being like it was when it came from the factory but I'm trying to protect as much of the original design as I can. In regard to E-timers and thermostats, all I can say is; why? I would like to add something though. The other night I read on this forum that a stock Model T in good running condition should be able to go 45 mph on a straight flat stretch. And I had trouble agreeing with it. However, I took my nice, mechanically sound '22 touring out on a flat surface the other day and cranked it up to 45 mph with no trouble whatsoever. And it's stock and I think it could have done more, but I had to back down for the stop sign. I'm totally impressed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:56 am:

I think in a modern car the alternator, AC compressor, PS pump, starter and waterpump are all classed as engine accessories.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Brown on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 01:02 am:

You of course have some damage, Looks as though the mag coils can be rewound and it did not break any magnets unless you have not checked them yet. When a magnet clamp came off mine it shredded the mag coils and when it locked up took 9 magnets with it. That is just part of having a T as it is something we can fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 05:49 am:

I find some of the comments on this forum amazing sometimes.

A Model T breaks or looses something and suddenly owners rush to alter, remove or add some other so called improvement as what happened is obviously wrong or dangerous not that the part was not up to par..

I've been driving Model T's for nearly 50 years, it has never occured to me that any parts that the car came from the factory with needs to be removed in case they "go wrong" things only go wrong if things are not right in the first place.

15 million T Fords made with magnetos installed and without any record of the magnetos being such a problem that removal is required. Only owners without the knowledge or ability or too cheap or lazy to spend the money doing so to restore the magneto and suddenly we should not have them as they are not needed - give me a break.

Any one who purchases a Model T and does not satisfy himself that all the parts are in good condition is plain asking for trouble. Yes it may have been properly restored and the sellers word may be good but you should check out the parts yourself. In most cases what people think is Ok is more than not NOT even worse if you built the car and the work is poorly done.

Anyone who has a motor apart and does not check all the magnets to see that are not cracked can only blame himself it at some time one breaks. same goes for all the other things.

Both my cars have no water pump (they never boil) they have no external oil line ( never had a problem with a bearing ) and I bet I have been up as many steep or long hills as anyone. They don't have thermostats four wheel or disc brakes, one has RM's the other is standard Ford transmission never a problem anywhere.

Ralph, in my opinion your car falls way outside what most of us regard as a normal Model T. Don't get me wrong I have a Speedster that has as many if not more accessories and improvements on it than yours but I don't include it in a discussion on normal Model T driving.

I thought the idea most of us have is to have a Model T Ford that is put together as it would have been possible to do in its era. Period accessories, Genuine or repo parts as original assembled "correctly" to produce a car that works how a Model T works.

These cars are really robust, yes they were cheap when new but they are hugely reliable in standard form. Owners who originally bought them had virtually no experience with motor technology and abused the Model T way past the point we would possible be able to do today as the roads are far superior.

I don't know if its possible to look up newspapers of the day easily in the USA but there are large numbers of articles of the day in newspapers here give accounts of people buying a Ford loading it up with several adults and luggage and driving it thousands of miles over county where roads were unknown with no problems at all. With their magneto ignition, roller timers no water pumps or extra anything and yet we have owners today that can't drive any distance without sometime drastic problems, the fault of the design of the Model T I don't think so!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 07:07 am:

I can honestly say there has never been a loose band nut in any T transmission that I worked on that was not caused by my own carelessness. In each case I did not attempt to start the engine until I found the nut I dropped. This is an example of someone starting the engine after losing the nut. Didn't work out so good.

Ralph's car is an example of what you can have with no respect to Ford engineering. The only Ford parts on the car are the block and the frame rails. I don't think I will answer any more of Ralph's sniping posts, he and his car are irrelevant here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 08:28 am:

Mike G:

JohnH's post: "I always used to worry about field coils unravelling, or magnets breaking off from my defective and damaged magneto. Now I have peace of mind, and much better service access."

My post: "Seems to me that Steve said the cause was a band nut. Hard to fault the mag for that."

Your post: "No it's not R.V. You just post the same thing JohnH posted and figure you're done..."

My question to you: HUH????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 09:39 am:

I do not know the history of this engine as it was picked up with a garage full of other T parts. The band nut was found in the bottom of the oil sump along with the magnet clamp, remnants of the brass magnet clamp screw, several pieces of heavy iron wire (came from 2 of the piston wrist pin bolts) and several brass lining rivets. This is one of several T engines that have come through my shop with errant pieces found in the crankcase. The field coil windings are toast as they are ripped apart in several areas. I was trying to make a point that one must not assume that a "dropped" nut can't cause much damage - IT WILL !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 03:54 pm:

RV my point is to get people to understand that the nut didn't just fall into the transmission. There's a reason why it fell. I don't care what the effect was because it had nothing to do with why the nut dropped. According to Steve's post above Quote; "I do not know the history of this engine as it was picked up with a garage full of other T parts. The band nut was found in the bottom of the oil sump along with the magnet clamp, remnants of the brass magnet clamp screw, several pieces of heavy iron wire (came from 2 of the piston wrist pin bolts) and several brass lining rivets." So we come to the final conclusion that Steve nor you nor I can determine the reason why the nut fell in the crankcase. Therefore we've not satisfied the requirements of cause and effect because it's not possible for us to determine the root cause. And finding the root cause for a failure is the purpose for "cause and effect". Proper failure analysis should always include the investigation for the root cause for the effect and in this case the people who would be able to tell why the nut got into the crankcase. My guess is that someone either dropped it or put it on backwards and it unscrewed itself and fell into the guts of the magneto area. But that's only a guess and can't be considered the root cause of what cause the failure. It's just my guess and we probably shouldn't attempt to fix the cause because it's only a guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 04:19 pm:

"It was picked up with a garage full of other T parts".

This is a good reason for checking everything before trying to use it in a Model T. It is also true when purchasing a "rebuilt" engine, or a running car. We might not know the history of the car or the parts, but we can and should do a thorough inspection of things before we just assume that everything is OK.

This is also true of the rear axle thrust washers.

The problem is not necessarily one of a bad magneto, but of what must have caused the magneto to go bad. I had a bolt come out of the drive plate on a t one time and the first symptom was a "BANG" The engine kept running so I was able to get home, about one mile. That bolt did not damage the magneto, but it took out the starter ring and then landed on the transmission oil filter screen. That was a car which I had purchased in running condition, and before the bolt came out, the driveshaft broke where someone had welded it. After I replaced the driveshaft it ran fine until the bolt came out

After two things went wrong with that car, I decided to go through everything and rebuild it before driving it anymore.

It has become my most reliable Model T. Yes I still use the magneto and coils.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 04:58 pm:

Mike,

"There's a reason why it fell."

Of course there is, it's called gravity! Somebody dropped it inside. Happens all the time. Why the stress? Or, is it a chance to crucify the original poster for not being agonizingly accurate about his understanding of cause & effect.

O.K., cause & effect.
Cause: wandering nut
Effect: messed-up Model T

Jeez.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 06:07 pm:

Jerry, I've been giving this a lot of thought. Is there any way we can get congress to repeal the law of gravity so these things wouldn't happen in the future???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 07:45 pm:

That's easy, Joe; line the hogshead with magnets that are out of the way of the moving parts, instead of having the magnets be the moving parts...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 07:51 pm:

I'm not trying to crucify anyone, I'm just enjoying the conversation. There's no stress, unless this forum is actually important enough to let someone bring stress into another persons life. And if that's the case, then that person should probably find an alternative reality that doesn't plug into the wall. Jeez Jerry, maybe you ought to stop taking it so personal and lighten up a bit. None of it is that important. this is simply a forum with a whole bunch of self loving experts that get on here every night and stroke each others egos. That's why I like it here. The problem is, every once in awhile one of the experts takes on the persona of hall monitor and gets their panties in a bunch and has to try to get us to all stand in line again. Sometimes it's just fun to stand back and enjoy the lack of humor in some of these threads and twist someones thinking and then stand back and laugh at where it goes. But all in all this really is an informative and occasionally fun place to come to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:31 pm:

Ralph, if a model T's magneto is put together the right way it is extremely reliable and should not need any attention. I have a friend with a 24 touring. When I had the hogshead off it appeared that the magneto had never been rebuilt also the fact that the engine still has iron pistons makes this more likely. His engine will hand crank start on the magneto even when the engine has not be run for a while. How is this unreliable? Anyway the damage was caused by a dropped band nut, not by some fault of the magneto. If you start any engine with a loose part inside with or without a magneto you are asking for trouble.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 12:29 pm:

"...a whole bunch of self loving experts that get on here every night and stroke each others egos..."

Some people are just here to help others enjoy the hobby. Those are the ones I enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 01:22 pm:

Like I said Jerry "But all in all this really is an informative and occasionally fun place to come to."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 03:23 pm:

As Steve H. points out the damage was not caused by a loose nut in the pan It was caused by someone running the engine with a foreign object in the pan...ergo... root cause was running engine with foreign junk inside.

So the best way to avoid such failures in the future is through good maintenance procedures and good shop practices. I think this solution trumps Ralph's solution and if followed, everyone on both sides of the discussion wins!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 03:36 pm:

If you just leave your Model T parked, you won't risk having these operational types of failure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 03:50 am:

But John that's not the root cause. The root cause is whatever caused that nut to be loose "ergo" it could wind up in the pan. The purpose of Cause and effect is to determine the root cause so whatever caused it can be corrected so it doesn't happen again. If your not going to be aware of what the root cause is your only choice could end up being Ted's suggestion. :-)


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