Tires and wheels

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Tires and wheels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Ragan on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 12:49 pm:

I keep hearing phrases like "demountable, clincher" and other words in reference to tires and wheels on the Model T. Could I get a quick explanation of the four, big, spoked round parts on each corner of my '19 Depot Hack. I understand the "wheel and tire" part so far.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 01:37 pm:

The word demountable means that the rim ( in the case of Model T wood wheels) comes off the car with inflated tire intact. It also applies to the wire wheels only instead of just the rim, the whole wheel readily unbolts. A spare tire inflated can therefore be substituted. Non-demountable would of course not have that feature so in case of a flat the tire/tube would have to be repaired on the car and re-inflated.
Clincher refers to the type of tire. The 30 x 3 1/2 size on Model Ts have a " clincher " edge that grips inside the edge of the rim, these are also called " beaded edge" tires/rims. Ford and other car manufacturers would obsolete these in favor of " straight side" or also called " Dunlop" (after their inventor) tires/rims that we use today on our modern cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Ragan on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 03:45 pm:

Thanks. Don't mean to be a novice at this (especially at my age) but I'm a novice at this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

I have heard that we are all ignorant, just on different subjects. Sounds like a Mark Twain quote.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr. on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:14 pm:

Thanks. Good information.

Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

The earlier T's had non demountable clincher rims. The front tire was 30"x3" This measurement was 30 inch diameter at the tread and 3" width of the tire when inflated. The rear tires were 30"x3 1/2" so you needed two spare tires, one of each size and had to mount the tires on the car whenever you needed to fix a flat or replace the tire. Of course, you could pull the wheel off, but the rim did not come off the wheel. Later the tires were all 30"3 1/2" so all 4 were the same size. Around 1919 demountable rims were offered for an additional cost. They were clinchers on all 4 wheels the same size. Around 1925, the "balloon" tires were offered. Those had the straight sides and the demountable rims were called "split rims" Those split rims could be retracted to be able to remove and replace the tire. And for an additional cost, you could get wire spoke wheels with "drop rims" The drop rims allowed you to deflate the tire and press it toward the middle of the rim which was smaller than the outside of the rim so it was no longer necessary to retract the rims. the "balloon tires were used on both the split rims and drop center rims. A new method of measurement was used for the balloon tires which continues to be used to this day. The diameter of the rim was used instead of the diameter of the tire. So they were called 4.40"x21". Today, combination sizes are offered such as 4.40"-4.50"x21"The 4.40 was the tread width, and the 21 was the rim diameter. These sizes will fit the 21"rims. So altogether there were 3 different size tires used over the years, and 4 different kinds of wheels. There were also other differences in the wheels. Many cars today have different wheels than Ford first offered for that particular car. Usually those changes were made because the original wood spokes wore out and wheels were replaced with what was available or an easier to use type, such as de-mountable to replace the original non de-mountable, or wire spokes to replace the wood spokes because they don't require as much maintenance. etc.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:20 pm:

Can you identify the wheels on your 19 hack now? ;)
(My guess - 30x3.5 demountables?)


Here's more text from the encyclopedia on wheels for T's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwwp-_4NdLY
And here are pictures from the forum: http://alturl.com/bm3ki


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr. on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:22 pm:

You don't see too many using the wire wheels. Is it because they were made for 26/27 years and Model T'ers choose not to use them on earlier cars?

I like the look of them. Do wire wheels fit on earlier cars?

Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:29 pm:

26/27 Wire wheels sell for high prices, so they're desireable - but since they were only available for little over a year from Ford, they are a bit scarce. Many use them for speedsters. The hubs are special too, that's another problem with them. Hubs & wire wheels are available as quality repros, but good originals can be found for half the price of new ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 04:31 pm:

Many speedsters of earlier years use 26-27 wire wheels. The more standard Model T's sometimes use them. You must realize that the wire wheels were only standard for one year out of the 19 years the Model T was made, and were optional for one additional year, so they do not look "stock" on any other year. However, the non-demountable and de-mountable look very similar and to the untrained eye, they look stock on any year car. There are also many more of them available.

There were also other after market manufacturers who made wire spoke replacement wheels for the Model T and many of the earlier cars use those. One example would be Buffalo Wheels.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 08:35 pm:

Orlando

I like the looks also and I have them on my 23 and 16 ( farmer restorations )

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 10:02 pm:

Another wrinkle in the tire area is confusion between split rim and split ring (more correctly called snap ring). The split rim looks like somebody cut though it with a hacksaw. The split allows the rim to collapse inward and make it easy to remove or install a tire. A split rim jack is used to spread the rim back out to full size and a bolt/latch holds it there. A snap ring rim doesn't collapse. One side of the rim is a spring steel ring that snaps into a groove. This is the famous rim that wants to kill you. If the snap ring isn't seated properly it can spring loose and go through the roof or you. Tire mounting on this kind of rim is often done inside a steel cage or with chains wrapped around it to contain the ring if it snaps off. This kind of rim is used on the TT and a lot of other trucks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Griffin on Friday, August 17, 2012 - 11:56 pm:

Layden, it's a Will Rogers quote.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 10:11 am:

Larry -- Your Hack has demountable rim wheels. I can't tell from the picture you sent me whether they are 30 x 3-1/2" or 21" ones, but you can read the tire size on the tires. If they are 30 x 3-1/2, they will have clincher tires and solid rims. If they are 21", they will have "balloon" tires and split rims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 11:15 am:

This is what is good about this forum, those who know the difference, might find this to be a very basic question, but as is often said, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, and it is great that there were no stupid answers. Some of the answers even went further than the original question. 90% or what I know about Ts, I learned here, the other 10% I learned by doing it wrong the first time.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 04:04 pm:

Larry,

That is a great summary above and will serve you well. If you decide to purchase wheels, rims, or clamps for your wheels, be sure to purchase the ones for the style of wheels that you have. For example Ford USA had 5 different demountable 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rims/wheels and they did not necessarily interchange. Related item, if you have not checked -- recommend you look to make sure you have all the same wheels and rims on your car. A few folks have been surprised when they had a flat and discovered that the spare tire and rim they had did not fit the wheels they had on the car. That was never a problem from the factory -- but over the years parts are replaced and many folks (myself included not too many years ago) do not realize that while the rim may have a 30 x 3 1/2 inch tire on it, it still may not safely fit on the felloe (the part the rim bolts to. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html?1242971377 when you get to the point you want to check that out. Also remember the Chevy rim will fit but the valve stem needs to be moved (I would redrill the rim and not the wheel but either way works).

Additionally there were lots of accessory wheels (wire, disc, and wood).

Finally in South America the 30 x 3 1/2 demountable that came from the Ford factory was a straight sided and not a clincher tire -- see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/264646.html They were also sold in the USA by some accessory wheel makers.

And if you would like a photo of your depot hack on your profile but you are having troubles resizing the photo so it fits, if you send me a copy, I will try to make it small enough to post but still large enough to see easily. My e-mail address is on the third line of my profile at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profil e=hap_tucker-users

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

Hap,
30 x 3 1/2 straight side tires came on Chevrolet closed cars as factory equipment. Same wheels as the open cars with clincher tires just different rims and tires for higher weight capacity. Other American cars also came from the factory with 30 x 3 1/2 straight sides for domestic use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 04:46 pm:

In a pinch you can run 30 X 3 1/2 straight side tire on a clincher rim by stuffing rope in the rim where the clincher bead would sit. I started doing that when clincher tires were no longer available in the tire size for one of my other cars and ran the car that way for years until the clincher size I needed came back into production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 04:53 pm:

Layden and Val -- thank you both for the additional details.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, August 18, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

I have a new pr of 30 x 3 1/2 straight sided tires and rims for them, in fact I think I have 5 rims danuser88@ktis.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 12:14 am:

John, sent you a PM
George n L.A.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 08:27 am:

Val, in my experience, to fit a straight sided tyre to a clincher rim, the rim needs to be cut like a split rim to be able to get the wire re-inforced edge of a straight sided tyre onto the BE rim. Did you have to do this? When I tried it, I had to make a clamp to clip the cut ends together like the 26T split rims. It turned out to be a real pain to get the rim collapsed enough to get the tyre on and then get it back together again. And to top it off for me, the tyres I fitted failed!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 09:10 am:

A few questions, myself on this topic:

Are wire wheels inherently more stable than wood wheels .. at least over a long period of time? .. i.e. not subject to undetected rot or splits, shrinkage, etc. Of course you could have rust I suppose.

I had always 'assumed' wire wheels were like bicycle wheels ... adjustable spokes. Actually seeing some of these up close now .. I see they are welded.

Do 'all of the a above', still require a tube? Given the potentially questionable status of the inside of our rims .. I would imagine it would be good practice to use tubes, regardless.

Bob ...
What size are your tires?? They look to a balloon type.

Mine are demountable rims ... I think. My spare is on it's rim on the mount on the back of my roadster (soon to be a pick-em-up). It's not much like rubber any more ... more like bakelite! How 'kosher'/ period are tire covers, to protect the tires from UV deterioration??

Keep 'em roll'n ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

Dennis,

You asked: Are wire wheels inherently more stable than wood wheels .. at least over a long period of time? ..Answer – if you mean 20 years – either work fine with normal maintenance (i.e. keep them painted or varnished). Note there are folks who are running the original spokes on their cars. We still have one or two wheels that are still good, solid, and tight – round felloe so 1917 or earlier. But in general the welded spoke wheels given the same treatment will last longer. And both wood and welded steel spokes can rust (i.e. the felloes and rims on the wood wheels are steel).

You commented: I had always 'assumed' wire wheels were like bicycle wheels ... adjustable spokes. Actually seeing some of these up close now .. I see they are welded. –Answer/comment: The wheels Ford supplied were welded steel spoked wheels. The accessory wire wheels available for the Fords and which also came as stock on other cars were laced spokes that were adjustable. All of those later wire laced wheels had an offset to help brace the wheel for side loads. I.e. when the car was cornering or when it hit a curb etc. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/101661.html for samples. The very early 1900s cars that used wire spoked wheels were of the bicycle design and they did NOT have an offset and they could not take much of a side load. (Henry’s Quadracycle had those types of wheels as did some of the early curved dash Oldsmobile and steamers).

Your question – comment: Do 'all of the a above', still require a tube? Given the potentially questionable status of the inside of our rims .. I would imagine it would be good practice to use tubes, regardless. Answer: I don’t know if anyone makes a tubeless tire in the 21 inch balloon size. If they did, the welded steel spoke rim would probably work ok. The 21 inch balloon split rim would not work for tubeless as it has a slit across the rim that would leak. The adjustable steel spoke would probably require the nipples to be sealed with something to prevent leaks. But again, I am not aware of anyone running tubeless tires on their T with either 30 x 3 ˝ or 21 inch balloon tires. Note the rims should be solid or they should be replaced. A rusted out rim can split with a tube and can cause a blowout – flat.

Your Question: Bob . What size are your tires?? They look to a balloon type. Answer: You are correct. Bob has the 1926-27 21 inch balloon welded steel spoked wheels and they take the 21 inch balloon tires. (same size tire as the 1928-1929 Model A Ford – and while the wheels look similar they will not interchange. You can purchase adapters to put the Model A wheels on the T wooden hubs.) See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/137012.html
For a comparison of Model T vs Model A wire wheels.

Your comment: Mine are demountable rims ... I think. Comment/Answer: If they were original equipment from Ford and they have four bolts holding the rims on -- they would be demountables. For 1924 they would be 30 x 3 ˝ inch clinchers but in 1925 the clinchers as well as the 21 inch balloon demountable wheels and rims were offered. And they can easily be fitted to an earlier car.

Your question: How 'kosher'/ period are tire covers, to protect the tires from UV deterioration?? If you keep the car in a garage when it is not being driven– it probably does not matter about having a tire cover. If you drive the car a lot it also will not matter – you will wear the tread off before it becomes hard. A quick skim of some old photos and I did not see any with the T having a spare tire cover. Most of the factory photos that showed a new T did not show the spare tire – but rather the front of the car. The ones that did show the spare tire – normally only had a rim as the spare tire was extra. During that same scan I only saw one period photo of a 1930 Model A Ford with a spare tire cover. But I didn’t look at many Model A photos.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:24 pm:

Allan, the car I first used straight side tires on had demountable split clincher rims so it was not an issue. The 30 X 3 1/2 straight side tire that I mounted was on a Ford non demountable clincher rim but I am pretty sure that the tire did not have a wire reinforced edge or if it did there was enough give to work it over the rim. I think I still have the tire somewhere in the loft over my garage but I am away on vacation for the rest of the month and probably won't remember to look for it when I get back. I will try to remember but given my memory I wouldn't want to make any promises!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 06:08 pm:

Thanks for all the answers, Hap! Very good information!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 10:48 pm:

George no message has come to Missouri danuser88@ktis.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 05:05 pm:

Allan, I actually remembered to look in my loft when I got back from vacation and the tire is a Goodyear Pathfinder. From what I can tell it does not seem to have a wire bead but if it does it will still mount on a clincher rim as I just mounted it on an old rim as a test. I might add that this tire is very, very old yet still fairly supple and free of sidewall cracks. It really makes you wonder what they are using to make tires for our cars today!


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration