OT What happened to the electric car? Petro-terrorism?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: OT What happened to the electric car? Petro-terrorism?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:19 pm:

I have no opinion about the veracity of the presentation below.

http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/0Kes-228058-electric-vehicles-music-kes -cars-science-technology-ppt-powerpoint/ Click on the right side of the picture to continue the comments.

We have heard the many tales about guys developing a carburetor that produced phenomenal mileage and if they refused to sell it to certain buyers, they wound up dead.

Edison and Ford were working together to produce battery operated autos. In 1911 there was a lot of suspicion that the oil companies had destroyed the Thomas A Edison batter plant.

According to the article below, petro-terrorism had a hand in what happened to the electric car.
http://nexusilluminati.blogspot.com/2011/08/original-electric-car-conspiracy.htm l Scroll this page to read the article. There is no video at the beginning.

Companion reading. Look for articles like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

That story is absolute bullshit of the worst sort.

Ford and Edison made a couple toy electric cars - stuff for Ford's grand kids to putt around the estate for example - but never had any plan to build any for sale.

About once a year someone dredges this crap up, it has been discussed to death on this forum many times over the years. There was no conspiracy by anyone, the electric car was utterly unsuitable in Edison's time.

The electric car still has no future even with today's technology, and with billions of tax dollars poured down a rathole trying to make one work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:49 pm:

Dept. store magnate in MI did try to make an electic Model T during WWII as a way to be mobile during gas rationing. Used a '26 sedan.

Didn't work out too well, he had plans to make and sell these from used Fords, ....but never made more than this one :-)



Elec motor coupled to the T tranny.



Brake pedal on floor, and lever for go.



Rear of coupe body filled with batteries under the wood storage box, with a healthy cut-off switch!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

Well,regardless of it's practicality,I want a early 70's Citicar anyhow.I think they are really cute and should be easy to work on as well.And no noise much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 04:58 pm:

The worst thing about electric cars is the propaganda that they are zero emission, the fact is, most electric cars are coal powered, some are Diesel, only the ones that are solar or hydro powered are zero emission, and even these take power that could be used elsewhere that must be replace with coal, Diesel or atomic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:01 pm:

LOL Even solar powered cars take a bunch of energy to make the solar cells.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:04 pm:

For anyone who is truly interested in educating themselves on the history of electric automobiles in the United States, I suggest that you go to your local library and check out the book "Taking Charge: The Electric Automobile in America" by Michael Brian Schiffer and published by Smithsonian Institution Press. Henry Ford's experimentation and flirtation with the production of electric automobiles utilizing Edison nickel iron-batteries including two experimental prototypes is covered in Chapter 11 of the book. Henry Ford's early endeavors in gasoline automobiles is also covered in prior chapters and Thomas Edison and storage battery development and manufacture is covered extensively throughout the book.

Originally published in 1994, It is a well researched, 225 page book with foot notes and an extensive bibliography to back-up the research. Used copies are available from Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Electric-Automobile-America/dp/1560983558

My take on the episode is that Henry Ford was not whole-heartedly interested in manufacturing electric automobiles, but was prodded by Thomas Edison and got involved in order to appease him.

ALSO - the book discusses how earliest electric automobiles were perfected before gasoline automobiles and that electrics were more viable, reliable and practical as commuter transportation in urban areas than gasoline automobiles. However, automobile marketing and ownership in the earliest days was not aimed at the aspects of practical, daily transportation but as playthings of the upper-middle class for pleasure and long-distance weekend touring. As a pleasure vehicle, electrics could not compete.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Considering the number of coal-fired power plants in the country, I suggested when GM introduced the Chevy Volt that "Chevy Lump" would be a better name for it.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:26 pm:

I was at a Gm dealer recently and saw the price of a Volt.I was really shocked when I saw the price of a nicer looking,more practical Cadillac station wagon was about 4000 LESS than the tiny,impractical Volt.How long could you enjoy the ride and comfort of a Cadillac with that 4000 dollar savings before you broke even compared to the Volt?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:35 pm:

I understand the Edison battery lasts a long time, but has even lower energy density than a lead-acid battery, which means you lug a lot of extra weight, yielding shorter range.

from wiki on Energy Density:

Gasoline energy density is 6 kilowatt hours per pound.

Lithium Air battery holds 1.1 kWH per pound.

Lithium Ion battery holds 90 Watts per pound.

Lead Acid battery holds 13 watts per pound.

A six inch Subway sandwich, OTOH, has 192 watts of energy per pound.

I advise you to check my conversions from Mjoule per Kg to kWH per lb.



The energy density just isn't there for electric vehicle use. I'm sure John Regan will weigh in on this, so to speak...

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:35 pm:

I have an electric Nissan LEAF I use for my 60 mile round trip commute. I was ready to replace an aging truck and I had been spending nearly $6,000/year for fuel. After rebates the LEAF was around $21,000. It gets me to work (30 miles) for about .85. It takes about 6 kilowatts to get me there. At the rate the car charges, it uses current at about the same rate as a refrigerator. I have put 9,000 miles on it and so far it is the best modern car I have ever owned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 05:56 pm:

What is the life expectancy of the battery and what do you do from there?

Wouldn't a solar panel on/for the roof be something to think about?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 06:14 pm:

Those are good numbers, Dan. However, with a clapped out Ford Escort you would not have to carry collision insurance, which would make up the difference in fuel costs.

And you would have $20K more in the bank...

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 06:49 pm:

Royce
The man seated in this electric vehicle is Fred Allison who experimented with electric cars for Ford in the Model T era.
1
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 06:52 pm:

Ron,

The experiment failed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 07:18 pm:

Royce
Yes, that I cannot deny.
A hundred plus years later and we are not much closer.
Auto body technology has advanced though. Grin
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 08:00 pm:

I see nothing wrong with electric cars. Gas or electric all are just a means for propulsion. Both require energy to make and use.

At last years Los Angeles auto show I test drove a Chevy Volt and was impressed. If I bought a Volt it would not be to be "green" (hate that term). I hate going to gas stations every two weeks.

Our government could have done far better investing in clean diesel technology then spending billions of dollars trying to electrify the automobile.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 08:19 pm:

Yes, for pure economy, Ralph, I could have made different choices. I could have bought a $10 bike at a garage sale and beaten even your Escort example. But what level of reliability and comfort do you expect from a $1,000 car? I would anticipate annual nightmares trying to get such a car smogged for license. Air conditioning would, I suspect, be lacking from your dream econo-box. How many times being stranded at the side of the road would it take before I re-thought the $1K jalopy?

The fact is most people drive less than 100 miles per day. I am one of those people. If you drive more than that, you can charge during your day and still go electric, or buy a model with greater range (Tesla Model S with 300 mile capacity) and, if you daily drive more than 300 miles, then internal combustion is probably your best choice. I can make my 60 mile round-trip commute on one charge, but my employer provides charging facilities, which I put to use. I can drive to work and back at a cost to me of less than $5 per WEEK. I don't envision your clapped-out Escort sweat-box doing that.

I run into people every day who, seeing the car, need to tell me why it won't work, why it is impractical, why it is impossible. Coworkers who see me plugging the car in each morning at the office and unplugging it each evening tell me it is an intolerable waste of time. I ask them how often they stand at the gas pump filling their tank; 10 minutes they say. Well, it takes me 30 seconds to plug in or unplug the car. See? They say, you still take more time. Maybe, I say, except you then spend three hours of your work-week to pay for the gas. So in fact they spend HOURS per week fueling their $45,000 SUV or truck, but me spending a moment plugging in my car is, somehow, stupid. LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 08:24 pm:

I always laugh when I see a Prius going down the highway at 85. What's your gas mileage now?, I want to ask.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 08:37 pm:

Dan,

I just clicked on your profile and I was wondering, do you think I am ignorant for believing in God?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 08:48 pm:

Doug, I always refer to it as a Toyota Pious, because the owners have a holier-than-thou attitude... :-)

I work at home, so my commuting cost is wear and tear on my slippers as I walk across the hall. I run short errands in the neighborhood - shopping, etc. Occasionally, but only very occasionally, I have to drive three or four hundred miles. I fill the tank every two weeks or so. Sure, it would be nice to save the $20-25 that I spend on gas a week. Is it worth $5,000-10,000 in extra purchase price to do that? Probably not. I would also have to find another solution for the long trips.

I have no problem with alternate energy solutions, but make them practical first. Until they are financially attractive, private money isn't going to go for them in a big way. I would like the government to wait until the smart money thinks that they are worth pursuing, and not to dump our taxpayer money into them in the interest of... whatever they think it's in the interest of.

Twenty years ago, the argument against drilling for more oil domestically was, "It won't benefit us for another 10-15 years." It's the same argument being used now. Hello?? Are we missing something here?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 09:15 pm:

Royce -
I don't know you personally or what your particular belief set comprises. This is likely not the venue to discuss the topic, but I am not reluctant to discuss it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 19, 2012 - 09:16 pm:

Well, Dan, I suppose you could compromise on a $3,000 car the same size as the Leaf, and get one with aircon that works. The Windstar I sold early this year for $1500 got 25 on the road, and everything worked. It had only 213K miles on it, too.

How much does the Leaf weigh, compared to its gas equivalent?

Are you going to start bullying about religion now, Royce?
rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 06:45 am:

Dan,

I find it odd that when deciding how to create your profile here on the Model T Ford Club of America web site the most important thing you could think of to tell us was how stupid religious people are. That is going to insult 99% of the people in the world who are not atheists or agnostics.

Personally I don't care if you believe in God or not. If you did not want to be asked the question then why did you put that in there?

The Toyota Prius is a money losing car for Toyota. The Prius is made to promote a "green" image. Over the 15 or so years it has been made Toyota has learned how to reduce the amount of loss per vehicle to a manageable and predictable level. Toyota subsidizes the cost of the Pius to garner favour from governments and the media. In return they hold great power over government and media sources.

I don't know enough about Nissan or the Leaf to be able to say how much money they are losing on it but I would guesstimate that each car is sold to consumers for less than half of what it cost to manufacture.

The Nissan Leaf needs a charging station that operates on 220 volts at any location where you might want to charge. So it doesn't just "plug in" to charge. Someone has to buy a $3000 charging unit and provide a 220 volt outlet. That is not going to happen for free, for example to add a 220 volt outlet in my garage 6 feet away from the breaker box my electrician charged me $300.

Like all electric cars the Leaf would not exist without stealing money out of the rest of our pockets. Without subsidies it would not exist. It is a disingenuous argument to say that it makes sense from an economic standpoint or from an environmental one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 07:54 am:

Hey Royce,

You should move to Australia, we have 10amps @ 240Volts available at ANY power point. It's not hard to make that a 15amp supply either despite out over zelous electricity rules. Charging stations cost a lot less than offshore drilling plartforms, or spill cleanups like the gulf of Mexico. Just imagine how many charging stations you could build with the money spent on a war in Iraq... you could probably even run a lot of them for free if you didn't have a massive pension liability for wounded veterans. No one wins a war.

Toyota's stated aim with the Pious is to educate the public about hybrids and what they along with their electric cousins can do. Get a few of them out there via government fleets and the like. We have them as Taxi's locally so they must be viable when compared to the default 4 litre 6cyl sedan running on LPgas which is about half the price of unleded petrol due to tax concession.

Biggest problem is that the customers currently expect far too much, even though the vast bulk of car journeys aren't beyond what is easily achiveable with current electric technology. The car makers realise that customers have "range anxiety" about this electric stuff, they don't trust it... yet. So as the local GM subsiduary Holden is now running ads before it's release of the "long range Holden Volt" Though most won't need it, the accent is on the on the first part of that statement... long range.

I don't believe that any company would make a vehicle in the kind of volume that the Prius has reached while making a loss on every one, it just can't be done. To that end Toyota Australia now sells a hybrid Camry, built here in an expensive labour country. I really can't see why they don't use a diesel engine.

As for the other subject I recently saw a very apt quote...

"Science flies us to Mars, religion flies planes into buildings"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 08:22 am:

My only comment is that the fact still remains---We still have to make the electricity to charge these very expensive electric cars, so how truly green is it? I also don't know the numbers' but it is costing someone to pay for this electricity to charge the cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 09:13 am:

Electricity takes fuel to generate it, with the exception of solar or hydroelectric power. Burning fuel to generate electricity to charge a battery is a very inefficient way to harness or use energy. In addition, since our highways and roads are usually maintained by a tax on fuel, but not on tax on electricity, all those who use electric cars are mooching off those who pay the taxes that build and maintain the roads they drive on. I hope that loophole is fixed with higher registration fees.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 09:32 am:

Toyota is the #1 car seller in California. The state requires a certain number of LEV (cars classified as Low Emission Vehicles) to be sold depending on how many other vehicles are sold by the manufacturer and what their combined computed average emissions are.

The all electric Nissan Leaf is considered a Zero emission vehicle since it does not directly put pollutants into the air. The zero cars get a higher credit per vehicle than the LEV's.

So this is another way that the buyer of a normal car gets screwed because all of us are subsidizing the cost of the zero and LEV cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 09:43 am:

I just love conversations about the cost of commuting because I commute 50 miles each way to get to work 75% of the time and almost 8,000 miles the remaining 25%.

I car pool in a Boeing 777 or 747 for the longer trips (will be at 100K miles this year during the next trip) and am currently driving a 1999 Mercury Sable Wagon with a 24 valve motor for the shorter 100 miles each day.

The Sable came to me a few years ago with about 48K on it for $2,000.
After a few minor repairs and new tires it now has over 90K.
It gets 24 to 25 mpg.

I considered electrifying but like the smell of burnt gasolene over the smell one gets from an electric motor :-)
OK - I could not justify the initial investment and increased insurance costs of a new vehicle.

I seldom pay more that $3,000 for my commuter car. The last few were Audi's and although they are expensive to maintain (I do most of my own work.) they served me well.
I got over 350K miles on an Audi 200 quattro turbo, and 250K miles on an A6 Avant quattro wagon. Both got about 23 - 25 mpg with part of the commute being done at 70 - 80 mph.

Me electrify?? Only if work supplies a free recharge - :-) :-) then this cheap guy will consider it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 09:56 am:

When we were younger, the government itself did R&D through to what could be called 'near commercialization' and then if it didn't belong in the super-secret category, it became public domain and free enterprise could then know the 'technology' box, product life cycle, etc., for free. So many things came out of things like the Naval Development Center, etc. and it was from salaried government employees and because it was this way, private commercialization was allowed when the government was done with it and no one com0any had exclusive use to the patents, etc., as they belonged to 'we the people' in the first place...yep, long ago and far away, eh?

We also know that oil is eventually a limited supply since we keep our own reserves locked up tighter than a drum for a doomsday scenario. The problem is that Asia is now already over 50% of the new car output globally, and they don't have any reserves! China is already pumping everything they can of their own and buying the rest. What's going to happen when that 50%+ goes to 60%...70% and beyond? There is this thing called supply and demand and a barrel of crude for refining will go to the highest bidder...'nuf said on that.

So alternate for self sufficiency has to be someone's overall goal. My point here is that we have left the infrastructure open for the private investment in R&D...and yes, you can add a 220 limited service for a couple of hundred and 3 hours of driving time will take 20 hours to recharge, and a real home charging station with faster charge rates will be in the 2 to 2.5K range....and yes the batteries will go kerplunk for what is now an average 2.3K replacement fee...and yes the government is whittling away at the subsidy...

But they do work...they may have a bigger overall carbon footprint than gasoline (sorry 'greenies') but they are what the new order world will call 'sustainable' and on the grid while off the global grid at the same time. Look into something like a Pruis...and Toyota is offering a guaranteed 8 year battery life. sure they know some will fail sooner but for piece of mind there is that 8 year guarantee. Look a little deeper and these battery cells are like the old ancient ones in a way, any given cell can be replaced...yet so far Toyota has insisted on a complete battery-pak replacement and since it is their nickel...why worry is their mantra for now.

In a far out/far side way...it will probably be the Chinese themselves that come up with the sustainable economical battery-pak technology answer in time as it is simple...1.3 billion vs. 330 million in a Generals Grant and Sherman way to eventually have a solution.

So I watch and listen and will probably be the last person to buy a hybrid or other electrical vehicle...but at the same time have to be pragmatic and remind myself what the overall goal is and needs to be, without looking at the economics or the true carbon footprint for now...

Sort of like those who chide the Ethanol bandwagon. If you are really concerned for those areas that use a 10-15% blend...they do make separators...they too have a cost...if could be dangerous in home use...and of course separating out 10% adds yet another 10% to the useful cost.

I'll just watch and listen, Gasoline prices right now are not too far ahead of where they were in the early 70's when adjusted for inflation and actual highway tax increases, but with Asia growing like it is, that dynamic just can't hold itself past the next decade...so Guinea Pigs or not, tree hugger's or not, greenie's or not...go for exploring the alternate ways...it actually does help the rest of us on that development curve...

Don't know where this all came from :-) but...decided to say it anyway on this topic...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 10:06 am:

Do you pay tax Royce?

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the concept? Tax is a method by which the cost of things is amortized across the whole population for what is broadly called the public good. I'm screwed to pay for the things I could not afford all by myself, like roads wherever I choose to travel, electricity for keeping the refrigerator running wherever I choose to eat, pensions for the old and unemployed so they don't have to steal my TV to afford to eat and public hospitals to keep me healthy.

I like your example Fred, there was a time, dare I say pre model T, that having private transport at your convinience was unheard of. In developed countries, where the demand was great enough we had trains or tramways for getting about in a most civilised fashion.

It was better than walking;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 11:00 am:

Although technology has advanced the electric car hasn't. It sits in the same spot it did 100 years ago. Relatively short hops with an overnight re-charge. It's a stop gap measure. Though it obviously works in some situations there's been no major push, like work charging stations, to make it really reasonable. What happened to that California experiment involving fuel cells & hydrogen? That looked very promising. Quick fill up with a fully electric car that compared to gas vehicles in every respect. As mentioned, the price of these electrics is daunting. It's almost a feel good thing for those that can afford it. I've driven 2 electrics. Both were government required as alternate fuel vehicles when a large fleet was involved. They were fun to drive. A new experience. But you had to stay strictly within it's limitations which caused problems mostly because people weren't used to it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 11:30 am:

One can argue about electric cars all day but a basic fundamental issue remains. To push electrons into a battery, there has to be a prime mover somewhere burning fossil fuel or atoms. Be it in the car or on the grid.

So the real question is this, is it more efficient to burn what you need in the car or distribute the power through millions of miles of wire with the inherent losses of a centralized system?

Basic physics cannot be overlooked. All the Prius has taught us is that every automobile wastes energy in braking and if retrieved can improve mileage slightly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 11:43 am:

Overall, I like the info in this thread.

As you know, George, the ChiComs do that govt sponsored commercial development. They just committed $30 Billion for solar cell factories, which makes our half Billion investment in Solyndra such a loser.

There must be a lesson in the following:

Our house is heat soaked at 80 degrees in this hot wx, and even with open windows is not cooling down at night. I drink a lot of coffee, and this morning I considered making some of it iced. Heat up the kitchen to make coffee; then heat it up more to make ice cubes to ice the coffee.

Instead, I dug out the clear jug we use for sun tea, and now have it brewing in the back yard. I only have to make enough heat for cubes to take it from 80 to 32..

Has anybody tried the new Starbucks instant coffee for sun brewing? Standard instant coffee is cheap robusta crap.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 12:34 pm:

My company looked at making equipment to manufacture Fuel cells.
During that time there were lots of comments about the "hydrogen economy"
One of the guys did an energy balance study and determined that the net affect of using electricity to extract hydrogen from water and turning hydrogen back into electricity in a fuel cell netted something like a 40% loss in actual energy.

Using natural gas in a fuel cell was slightly better but not as good as running the vehicle directly on the natural gas.

I think the best method is to use cow's gas in a fuel cell because most of that gas is currently lost to the atmosphere and is the real reason for global warming and depletion of the ozone layer.
To make this successful, scientists will have to devise new blends of food that will allow the cows to increase their gas output.

If we could just discover how to make fuel cells work on hot air we could install them in Washington DC -- :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

Fred, it's already been done:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kekacs on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 01:14 pm:

I'm going to build me a windmill powered car out of thin air! That will truly be a zero emissions vehicle!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 01:24 pm:

Disposeing of the batterys is a issue with the electric cars is it not?
Lead acid is primitive,but recycleable.
I am wondering if we design a system to run on cow farts,would it not require alot of some type fuel to plant and harvest the food they eat to produce the gas?
I know if I get ahold of any more of them burritos from the local resturant,I will be able to run a freight train!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kekacs on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 01:36 pm:

Hey wasn't Fred Flinstones automobile emmisions free?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 02:46 pm:

Well, Royce, if my “favorite quote” said “I put my faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”, I trust you would not be acting quite so offended? And more importantly, if I said that instead, would you still question my motive for saying it? If not, why not? The question was “My Favorite Quote”, it was not “Royce’s Favorite Quote”. You may supply any quote you wish for your profile. I may change mine in the future, but the day I answered the question, that was my favorite quote – but I think I also like the one about Mars and buildings posted by Anthony Bennett. Can I have two favorites, Royce?

As to your lesson on How To Charge the Nissan LEAF, I can only relate my own experience which I fear may not be as extensive as yours. You see, until I read your educational post, I didn’t realize my car cannot be charged on 120 volts. Imagine how foolish I feel now, after driving the car every day since the beginning of February, using only the 120 volt charger that came with the car as standard equipment and plugging it into the 120 volt receptacle in the garage wall every day. What a dupe I have been. Wait until I tell the people at Nissan. And wait until word gets out to the thousands of other LEAF owners who are stupidly plugging their cars into the wall, too.

Ralph – I actually did all sorts or calculations and I can tell you if I had not needed to make a change because my primary vehicle was nearing its end and if the LEAF was not laden with rebates, the purchase would not have made as much sense. But I spent more for fuel in the past five years than the full purchase price of the LEAF. At the rate I was spending, taking the rebates into account, the LEAF will pay for itself in three and a half more years. Even your Windstar van, should it still be running then, will still need gas, right? And even though it had “only” 213,000 miles on it, when would the ol’ Windstar give up the ghost? It would only be a matter of time. How long can one last? 215,000 miles? 220,000? That means it has perhaps a few thousand miles left on it before it’s dog food and I don’t want to go through a succession of beater/junker/lapper/clunker/clapped-out oil-dripping jalopies. I was driving a beater/junker/lapper and am retiring it because it is what it is. I don’t want a Windstar minivan restoration project, no matter how cheap it might be. I have enough projects. Plus, my insurance policy needs a “Primary” vehicle at the top, with others in descending order after it and they will not accept a $1,500 car in that primary role. I compared with other cars, like Ford Fiesta or Focus, and they were coming in at around the same price the LEAF was after the rebates. And the Fiestas are tiny. Yikes they are small; the Fiesta and Focus back seat is USELESS. The LEAF will take four 6’-2” 225 lb. passengers with comfort and leg room to spare.

George Button, I don’t understand your comment: “I also don't know the numbers' but it is costing someone to pay for this electricity to charge the cars.” Who pays your power bill, George? I can tell you I pay for the electricity my car uses from my home – and my employer pays for the electricity I use while I am charging at work.

Dr. Noel, yes, electricity must be generated. In California our power comes, in no particular order, from coal, natural gas, bio-mass, nuclear, geo-thermal, hydro, solar and wind. The power plants are running right now as I type this, just as the coal & gas-fired power plants were running when you typed your post. The same power that might charge an electric car powers your refrigerator and flat screen TV and air conditioner. Are you worried about the source of the electricity you use to power the appliances in your home? Do you think of your refrigerator as being a coal-burner? You say the car is not efficient, but as I said earlier, I can make my daily drive for 5 miles per kilowatt hour. At the electric rates where I live, a kilowatt hour costs less than $0.15. With that kilowatt hour I can drive 5 miles. Compare that with the efficiency or your daily driver, whatever it may be. I can drive my car 30 miles for well under $1. How much is gas where you live, Noel? Is it less than $1 per gallon? Inefficient may not be an accurate description of the electric car compared with a gas one. I’m sure there will soon come a time for increased registration fees for electrics and when I happens, I will pay it without complaint.

After I had committed to buy the car and two days before I was to take delivery, I woke in the middle of the night in a panic. What was I doing? I asked myself. I’m buying a car that I can’t even drive to Redding without recharging. I can’t make it to Fresno. Then it occurred to me; why does the car have to go to Redding or Fresno? I don’t WANT to drive to Fresno, so why does the car need to go there? When is the last time I drove to Redding? It must have been 25 or 30 years ago (except for the times I have towed a trailer through Redding on our way somewhere). Why was I panicking about the car being unable to drive without recharging to a destination I had no need or desire to visit and hadn’t visited in more than a quarter of a century? I had anticipated the car would fulfill perhaps 90% of my driving needs and I have other vehicles to infill the missing 10%. But in practice the car has exceeded my expectations. Since February there has been only one time the LEAF would have been inadequate. One trip in 7 months’ time is fine with me – what does that work out to be? As “impossible” and “inefficient” as it may be, the LEAF provides 99.5% of my daily driving needs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 03:02 pm:

Dan come to Tennessee the home of the Leaf, charging stations are being installed everywhere, there is a BP station nearby that you give the attendant $5.00 and they flip a switch and you get a quick charge it takes about 30 min,the state is working on a way to charge for the road use so everyone pays.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 03:03 pm:

I guess we won't be seeing it at Bakersfield, Dan...

A car that serves 90% of your driving makes more sense than driving a big pickup daily, when you need it for towing only a few times per year.

You don't need to apologize for the rebates, either, Dan, because no industry gets more govt welfare than big oil. Exon Mob, the most profitable company in the history of the world, pays zero US income taxes most years.

Is there a way to find out how much the Leaf, Pious and Volt weigh compared to their gas counterparts?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

Dave - almost all of my vehicles had a windmill just behind the radiator but it did little to help it move.

The only one that I can remember that did not have it was a a Vdub..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 03:42 pm:

"Is there a way to find out how much the Leaf, Pious and Volt weigh compared to their gas counterparts?" -Ricks

I don't know much about those, but a Tesla Roadster weighs 2723lbs compared to the Lotus Elise that it is built on, which weighs 1896lbs.

An extra 827lbs to try to stop or turn is pretty significant, especially when added onto a sub 2000lb car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

That's 44% more, Derek. In the old race car days, they figured every extra pound of engine would require 3 more lbs of support.

I once saw a college project's 2100 lb Porsche 914 full of lead acid batteries, making it 3100 lb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 04:04 pm:

If I remember right, the LEAF weighs around 3,600 lbs. and the batteries weigh 660 lbs. I think the closest gas car they make is the Versa, but I don't know its weight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 04:15 pm:

Dan,

I clicked on your profile expecting to see what kind of T you own. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the insult to religion was there instead.

I read about the Leaf's charging station here:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/cars/nissan_leaf#mainReview

Quote "Leaf buyers can arrange through their dealer to have a 240-Volt charging station installed in their garage, generally for less than $2,000 depending on the pre-existing wiring and electric service." End Quote.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 08:20 pm:

Royce, my lack of belief in the supernatural insults no one. “Religion” has no emotions or feelings with which to feel insulted but it does, in its own way, insult mankind.
I am a little curious why YOU, however, evidently feel personally insulted.

And to answer your original question we have several cars, some of which are early Fords.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Monday, August 20, 2012 - 08:43 pm:

Dan, your quote is interesting. I don't think your "lack of belief in the supernatural" insults anyone. Your quote, on the other hand, seems to say, ignorant people believe in God. Is this what you means? Just curious.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 12:23 am:

Man, sometimes this place just cracks me up. People that spend over $10,000 for a used car that you can't drive at 50 mph and might have major problems saying that a new electric car is impractical or too expensive. Guys with absolutely no personal experience with the topic are experts and people that actually own and drive one are told that they are wrong.

When this thread started, I knew that there would be no point in sharing a real world perspective. I built a number of electric cars in the mid 1990's, including a lead acid 914 with an 80 mile range that would do better than 80mph. I've driven more than 50k electric miles. I converted my 30' sailing ketch from diesel to full electric 2 years ago with LiFePO4 (lithium) cells. I know that I could build a 914 today using lithium that weighs less than 300 lbs more than stock with a range exceeding 100 miles on a charge. But instead, I'm spending my time on my '16 touring, my new to me truck, my V8 914 project, and lots of non-car related interests.

Electric propulsion is just another option, good for some uses, bad for others. There are pros and cons, just like every other fuel source. It's about finding a better choice for the problem at hand. Electric, diesel, gasoline, propane, they all have their places. I've got friends at CalTech that are trying to commercialize Solid Acid fuel cells (look it up, they're much more promising than hydrogen fuel cells). The world is changing, but luckily as Model T aficionados, we don't have to change with it.

Have fun, do stuff.
Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 12:53 am:

This thread shows that every time a human is pitted against another human a company makes another profit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 01:21 am:

Eric, I'm semi-impressed, except for the part about the V8 in a 914. Was that possibly your lead-acid 914 I saw at a swap meet near Signal Hill in the 1990s? They were my daily drivers for 20 years. I may even have a few parts left. If I run across any, I'll save them for you.



After I retired in 2000, I figured out a good T was fast enough, so I sold all the 914 stuff, and my airplane..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Joe Van Evera -
To finish this topic once and for all:
Ignorance is as ignorance does.
If you are gullible enough to believe in nonsensical things like, say, human beings flying away into the sky to live for eternity walking among the clouds, or perhaps beyond the clouds in outer space – wearing only first-century robes and using their magic to protect themselves. Or maybe you are quick to explain the unknown by saying, “That must have all been done by a great magician!” Or if myths, or compilations of myths, can cause you to suspend reality and ridiculous claims you would normally laugh at suddenly seem legitimate to you. Or if cannibalism seems like a good idea to you – achieved by muttering special incantations over special crackers and wine to actually, (not symbolically, but REALLY) turn those normal foods into human flesh and blood. Or if you are an adult and believe in invisible super friends, talking animals or if you think ghosts or evil spirits or benevolent spirits or demons roam the earth. Or if you think owning other human beings is perfectly acceptable and, furthermore, that because you own them you should be allowed to beat those people when they displease you – as long as they don’t die right away from the beating (if they croak a few days later… oh well, these thing happen and nobody’s perfect). If you do not recoil in abject horror, but instead willingly grant worshipful status to a book that commands you to kill other people, perhaps even members of your own family, or your friends and neighbors, for not believing as you do. If you think human sacrifice is a reasonable payment for past disappointments you experienced. If you think it is a fine option to sell your daughter(s) into slavery, or buy someone else’s daughter for yourself or your son.

If you actually believe or agree with any of these things or if you profess to believe these things; if you do not stand tall and proud, loudly denouncing these things and decry the book that contains them whenever you hear it being discussed, then yes, I fear you may be ignorant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 01:49 pm:

Dan,
You might want to add to your rant , If one believe electric cars can tap into some unknown, undiscovered nonpolluting, cheap power source, they too profess "faith in the unknown".

So yes, you too may be ignorant by your own measure. If you want to stand tall, and denounce this FOOLISHNESS, read a physics book and let it become your bible!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 03:00 pm:

I know,I aint right in the head,but I want 1.
It is 1 of the simplest designed cars.a wedge.So simple.Recycleable lead acid batterys,can be charged by wind or sun or hydro,and small.
I could use 1 of these for my trip to breakfast and the postoffice.But much more than that I would have to drive a dino juice burner.So unless I got it cheap,it would take years to pay for the refurbish with fuel saveings.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

And I thought that the wedge was a triumph TR7/8 :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 03:30 pm:

Sure, John.
Expand on that a little.
What are you trying to say?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 03:35 pm:

Dan,
If it were possible for a Model T, or any other machine to "evolve" from nothing without a designer and manufacturer, then it might be possible for the universe, the Earth, and all the living things on it including man to have evolved from nothing. The most logical explanation is a divine supernatural creator and manufacturer. The genetic code is much more complex than any automobile whether electric or gasoline operated. I choose to believe in the more logical explanation.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 03:45 pm:

Norman, facts never stand a chance against beliefs.
I will put your name in the "I believe it was all done by magic and THAT'S THAT!" column.
Some other day you can explain to us where your magician came from.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kekacs on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 04:14 pm:

Mack - Not sure why but I want one too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

MAN!! I SURE LOVE THIS FORUM LOL!!!!
almost as much as model T's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 06:27 pm:

I want to make sure I get John Semprez what he needs to feel better. Does the power source to which you refer have to be "unknown" and "undiscovered", as you said, John?

Can't I just use the solar panels that are already on my shop? I mean, the technology is here today, can't I use it today? Or does that spoil your point?

Another point I'm unclear on, do you actually want nonpolluting or not? The electric car is zero emissions. Tell me, would it be better if I was still driving my F250 diesel truck every day? If it would be better, can you tell me who it would be better for? Would it make you feel better if I was still driving my diesel truck? Do you know why you would feel better? Can you share that?

I found this, John: It is the energy almanac from ca.gov. I don't know if you believe data published by the State of California, but if you find other figures you like better, perhaps we can trade information and do some mutual fact-checking.

http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/overview/energy_sources.html

It shows California power generation in the year 2010:
Electricity (2010)
In-State Generation
Source
Natural Gas 53.4%
Nuclear 15.7%
Large Hydro 14.6%
Coal 1.7%
Renewable 14.6%

I also found this, John:
It is comparative emissions from gas-powered cars against electrics, based on the location of the electric power generation source (since the autos emit nothing, it is the generation plants' fuel that matters). Do you use electricity in Templeton, John? What is the source of it? How much is your bill per month? Do you know how many kilowatt hours you use? Are you concerned about your own home's usage or only about the 12 kilowatts per day my car uses?

Air pollution and carbon emissions
See also: Greenhouse gas emissions in plug-in electric vehicles and Greenhouse gas emissions in plug-in hybrids
Electric cars contribute to cleaner air in cities because they produce no harmful pollution at the tailpipe from the onboard source of power, such as particulates (soot), volatile organic compounds, hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, ozone, lead, and various oxides of nitrogen. The clean air benefit is usually local because, depending on the source of the electricity used to recharge the batteries, air pollutant emissions are shifted to the location of the generation plants.[1] The amount of carbon dioxide emitted depends on the emission intensity of the power source used to charge the vehicle, the efficiency of the said vehicle and the energy wasted in the charging process.
For mains electricity the emission intensity varies significantly per country and within a particular country it will vary depending on demand,[83] the availability of renewable sources and the efficiency of the fossil fuel-based generation used at a given time.[84] Charging a vehicle using off-grid renewable energy yields very low carbon intensity (only that to produce and install the off-grid generation system e.g. domestic wind turbine).
United States


Sources of electricity in the U.S. in 2009.[85]
An EV recharged from the US grid electricity in 2008 emits about 115 grams of CO2 per kilometer driven (6.5 oz(CO2)/mi), whereas a conventional US-market gasoline powered car emits 250 g(CO2)/km (14 oz(CO2)/mi) (most from its tailpipe, some from the production and distribution of gasoline).[86]
The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) published in 2012 a report with an assessment of average greenhouse gas emissions resulting from charging plug-in car batteries considering the full life-cycle (well-to-wheel analysis) and according to fuel and technology used to generate electric power by region in the U.S. The study used the Nissan Leaf all-electric car to establish the analysis's baseline. The UCS study expressed the results in terms of miles per gallon instead of the conventional unit of grams of carbon dioxide emissions per year. The study found that in areas where electricity is generated from natural gas, nuclear, hydroelectric or other renewable sources, the potential of plug-in electric cars to reduce greenhouse emissions is significant. On the other hand, in regions where a high proportion of power is generated from coal, hybrid electric cars produce less CO2 emissions than plug-in electric cars, and the best fuel efficient gasoline-powered subcompact car produces slightly less emissions than a plug-in car. In the worst-case scenario, the study estimated that for a region where all energy is generated from coal, a plug-in electric car would emit greenhouse gas emissions equivalent to a gasoline car rated at a combined city/highway fuel economy of 30 mpg-US (7.8 L/100 km; 36 mpg-imp). In contrast, in a region that is completely reliant on natural gas, the plug-in would be equivalent to a gasoline-powered car rated at 50 mpg-US (4.7 L/100 km; 60 mpg-imp) combined.[87][88]
The study found that for 45% of the U.S. population, a plug-in electric car will generate lower CO2 emissions than a gasoline-powered car capable of a combined fuel economy of 50 mpg-US (4.7 L/100 km; 60 mpg-imp), such as the Toyota Prius. Cities in this group included Portland, Oregon, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York City, and Salt Lake City, and the cleanest cities achieved well-to-wheel emissions equivalent to a fuel economy of 79 mpg-US (3.0 L/100 km; 95 mpg-imp). The study also found that for 37% of the population, the electric car emissions will fall in the range of a gasoline-powered car rated at a combined fuel economy between 41 to 50 mpg-US (5.7 to 4.7 L/100 km; 49 to 60 mpg-imp), such as the Honda Civic Hybrid and the Lexus CT200h. Cities in this group include Phoenix, Arizona, Houston, Miami, Columbus, Ohio and Atlanta, Georgia. An 18% of the population lives in areas where the power supply is more dependent on burning carbon, and emissions will be equivalent to a car rated at a combined fuel economy between 31 to 40 mpg-US (7.6 to 5.9 L/100 km; 37 to 48 mpg-imp), such as the Chevrolet Cruze and Ford Focus. This group includes Denver, Minneapolis, Saint Louis, Missouri, Detroit, and Oklahoma City.[88][89][90] The study found that there are no regions in the U.S. where plug-in electric cars will have higher greenhouse gas emissions than the average new compact gasoline engine automobile, and the area with the dirtiest power supply produces CO2 emissions equivalent to a gasoline-powered car rated 33 mpg-US (7.1 L/100 km; 40 mpg-imp).[87]
The following table compares well-to-wheels greenhouse gas emissions estimated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for series production plug-in electric cars from major carmakers available in the U.S. market by April 2012. For comparison purposes, emissions for the average gasoline-powered new car are also included. Total emissions include the emissions associated with the production, transmission and distribution of electricity used to charge the vehicle.[91][92]

I realize this is a lot of information and the reading can be laborious until you get deep into it, but I took your advice and let physics become my bible.
Great advice!
Thanks!
Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 07:15 pm:

Dan, So what you've proven is that your 0 polluting electric compact produces about the same pollution as a gasoline powered compact. Now that's progress. Your religious zeal to prove your point would be the envy of any bible thumping preacher. Good job.

Just remember all power companies buy and sell power by "wheeling" therefore you are distributing your "zero emission" pollution to the rest of the country not just your local.

By standing on your soap box insulting anyone who disagrees with you makes your actions appear like those of just another intolerant religious zealot.

You could likely improve your rant a great deal by using the Koran as your model... perhaps you have!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

First West Coast to East Coast in a purely electric vehicle without a backup team following. 12 days total, 7 on the road, 5 stationary. No battery change, just charging by pluging in.

http://roadsteracrossamerica.blogspot.com/2012/06/day-1.html?m=1

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 09:04 pm:

Hi, John!
I just wanted to touch base real quick, we're going to the spaghetti dinner at the church. Even though I just finished driving my 30 mile commute home, I can't get enough of the LEAF and can't wait to get back in it! I mean, who would be dumb enough to oppose less pollution and FREE fuel, right? LOL!

'K, gotta jam now, but maybe you can call me tomorrow and fire away with all those questions you have about the LEAF!

And a big congratulations to you on you new-found atheism! That is SO COOL!

C YA!
*fist-bump*


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 09:06 pm:

Hey, Neil!
I have known Alan for 25 years!

OK! Off to spaghetti!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Tuesday, August 21, 2012 - 09:16 pm:

As a solar engineer, I feel qualified to explain how an electric vehicle can be zero emission (not counting manufacturing). In most states, you can install solar panels on your roof to run the meter backwards. Do this during sunny days to "bank" the electrons. They plug the car in when you get home, running the meter forward to use the banked electrons. If anyone wants further information, please feel free to send me a personal message.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 03:16 am:

Taking advantage of you is too easy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 04:00 am:

My computer has been in the shop for nearly a week. So I am a little behind on forum reading.
I feel I must say that this thread has drifted a bit much, and a few too many of the postings have gotten a bit too personal. This is not necessary.

I would like to go into the history of electric automobiles. I could write a few paragraphs on Andrew L Ryker alone, and totally off the top of my pointed little head. But I think things have gone astray a little too much for that, this time.

One thing I do want to say. Dan Haynes has been one of my best and closest friends for a good thirty years now. He is one of the most intelligent and caring people I have ever known. A quality shared by all four (not including spouses) of the people I still consider to be my closest friends after thirty or more years. There must be about fifty people I consider to be very good friends. I love this hobby.
I hope I am not breaking any confidences by saying Dan has owned about as many running model Ts in his life as I have in mine. He still has a few. He also has owned and still owns several antique non-Fords. I will let him tell what they are if he so wishes. He is a true caretaker of his antique automobiles. I admire the way he cares for them.
He was the first person I knew closely that bought a hand crank coil tester AND learned how to use it correctly. As a matter of fact, he adjusted my coils for me about two weeks ago. I had the most enjoyable day I have had in probably two years just swapping a bunch of parts, riding in one of his cars, a barbecue lunch at another of his antique car friends' homes (and admiring a beautiful restoration in progress) and adjusting my coils. I cannot thank Dan enough. The past few years have been tough for me.
Thank you, Dan.
Drive carefully, and enjoy,
Wayne Sheldon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Langevin , Grants Pass , Ore on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 05:22 am:

... And that solar cell panel installation was just manufactured out of thin air , transported to the installation site , installed , complete with inverter , battery banks , copper cables an` all , without ANY , ZERO EMISSIONS or POLLUTION being created , RIGHT ?? O.K. , RIGHT , if you say so !! Royce , John , Joe , Norman , THANKS for being His Witnesses !! Dan just doesn`t understand that he IS religious , his belief is called " Secular Humanism " , in which he is his own God .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 06:53 am:

It is interesting to see that California makes most of its in - state generated electricity from natural gas, and that 88% of that natural gas comes from states or foreign countries outside of California.

Meanwhile 30% of California's electricity is made entirely outside the state.

Many good reasons to secede the USA from California. That state is being bankrupted by beaurocrats who have given too many subsidies away to idiotic products like electric cars, with no regard as to how to pay for it. The place is morally and economically bankrupt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 08:21 am:

Amortize the cost of solar panels over their lifetime, and the energy to make them is a drop in the bucket, paid back in the first months. Grid-tied residential solar means almost zero energy loss in transporting it to its destination. About 30% of the energy from Hoover Dam is lost in transport over the wires.

A dozen years ago I met a T guy on this Forum who headed a group of small electric utilities in Michigan. Hauling coal from Ohio by rail was too cumbersome, so they trucked it. How efficient is that?

The San Onofre nuclear plant next to Camp Pendleton has been shut down for the two years since it failed to pick up the load and aggravated the San Diego blackout. They just laid off a third of the 2200 workers, in preparation for permanent shutdown. I wonder how many $Billions of subsidies have gone down - and will continue to go down - that hot hole in the ground?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 08:40 am:

If you refuse to turn off the electricity coming into your home and live like some sort of cave dweller you ought to shut yer trap about charging an electric car. The juice is there. No matter how it gets there it's there. Complaining, on an electric computer yet, about fueling a car from a wall socket is ludicrous.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 10:22 am:

Now I want a LEAF too...

I already have 3kw of (US made in fact) photovoltaics on my house. Seasonally averaged they yeild about 13.2kWh per day which because I'm fairly efficient makes me a net energy exporter.

The solar modules have already made back the energy invested in their manufacture and because our state government has enacted a feed in tariff that pays a premium for my clean energy, my quarterly accounts have actually been cheques for $385, $400 & $48 respectively.

US standup raconteur Henry Rollins recently flew in to our capital (Adelaide) and was amazed that about 1 in 5 houses are now sporting PV systems. He wanted to thank the locals and then asked if they could please export some of their common sense to his home state of California.

Solar works very well here because the (aging) infrastructure runs at 40% capacity for 80% of the year, only running at full capacity for around 2% of the year, (we occasionally have blackouts because of the airconditioning loads on a 40plus degC day) so feeding power into the system at the bottom makes a lot of sense.

This is 10kw of Evergreen panels on a frame I designed, manufactured, built and installed.

http://www.nearmap.com/?q=10kw@-35.027137,138.716227&ll=-35.026981,138.716557&z=19&t=h&nmd=20120706

10kw of Evergreens


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 11:11 am:

Hey, Royce! Great to hear from you again, buddy!
Thanks for making such great points about the US importing so much of its oil from the Middle East! I don't think anyone else had the brains or courage to mention that, but leave it to you, right?! LOL! You really get to the crux of the matter with no red herrings and that's what I really like about you.

Like you said, we sure want to find more ways to become energy independent and, using the data you supplied, people will see that clean domestic electricity sure fills that bill! The more factual information we can get out there, the sooner we can get all these crazy myths squashed - and I know you are always in favor of facts and hate myths! Am I right?!

Oh! And one last thing before I forget! I was thinking about what you said earlier and I changed my personal favorite quote - I don't want any animosity between us.

And, hey! If you have any other ideas for promoting money-saving daily driving, or ideas for keeping our hundreds of billions of dollars right here instead of going to Arabs (and maybe used to fund mischief), make sure and post it here again, 'K? Great! Hope to see you on the road!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 11:32 am:

Neil,I got your reply,but cant reply back right now.thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary White on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 12:21 pm:

Guys, can we stop shooting flaming arrows at one another and get back to Model T's? The personal attacks are pretty childish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Aiken, SC on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 01:37 pm:

Wow, way to go Dan H. Almost 24 whole hours since your "to finish this once and for all" and even you can't give it a rest.

I also changed my favorite quote too. (with credit of course)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

Dan, I humbly concede. You have shown you have done the research and do know what your talking about within certain boundaries.

The challenge I still see here is political not good engineering, that is, instead of rebates and subsidies to purchase a system that still relies on fossil fuel, why can't these funds go into affordable solar power for each household?

Electric vehicles are viable no doubt under certain circumstances, like having a solar array to source the power. Perhaps if we all buy Leaves, the powers at be will concentrate on helping bring the price and durability of solar panels to a price point the unwashed can afford.

Ah, utopia!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 02:46 pm:

Dan,
My point is that electricity is not an energy source. It is a method of energy storage.

Your car runs on fossil fuel. It is extremely inefficient use of natural gas, one can burn the natural gas in a CNG powered car much more economically if all subsidies are considered. Your electrical car exists because of misguided eco - fantasy on the part of politicians and people who don't care about anything except lining their own pockets at the taxpayer's expense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

What a totally ridiculous thread. I have never seen a bunch quite like this one. You guys have beat a subject nearly to death and haven't physically changed anything. Not even each others opinions. Your debate has created a certain amount of animosity. And to take this to the point of debating religion is simply ridiculous. But then what do I know? I drive an 8 year old Ford F150 that on the best of days gets about 14 mpg. And my 2 ninety year old Model T's get about 18 - 20 mpg each. And I believe in evolution simply because it's logical????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Wednesday, August 22, 2012 - 04:09 pm:

Yes, John -
But you see there ARE funds making affordable solar panels. Solar panels are much, much cheaper than they were 10 years ago and they are much more efficient.

My point has always been to urge people to honestly evaluate today's technology and options and not be be a closed minded bigot, insisting anything new is evil or stupid. The title of this thread is Electric Cars and, as luck would have it, I have one and am able to speak about mine. I was skeptical, too. My friend who had an EV1 (and now has a Tesla Roadster and awaiting delivery of his Tesla Model S 7-passenger sedan with 300 mile range) convinced me to at least investigate it. And I did. And I am so glad I did. The car is marvelous. All the old fossils here can hate on it all they want, they can call me names - I just don't care. Their opinions are not grounded on experience or facts, they are speaking only from a position of the unknown. They simply cannot understand getting in the car in the morning and have it slip away silently, turn on the air conditioner (that will freeze you to death), turn on the radio or XM or iPod with great sound, get on the freeway and comfortably make your way through traffic for 30 miles and when you get there it has cost less than $1. I don't care what all the nay sayers think. That drive WAS costing me more than $20 every single day, Monday through Friday. My employer allows me to charge for my return commute, so it doesn't even cost me that buck. It is ONE DOLLAR PER DAY. I really, really can't understand why so many members here NEED for that to be a bad thing, but they do. They NEED for MY electricity to be dirty, but their arc welder uses clean juice only? Their air conditioner uses different electricity? No. But they are willing to disingenuously say so or ignore the facts just to lie. Why lie? Are they so fundamentally dishonest they cannot even admit the truth, even secretly to themselves?

The car is here, right now, as I type this. It is charging at the rate of 1.44 kilowatts/hour. How much is your house consuming? John, the LEAF does not pollute any more than your house pollutes, so why do you suppose these guys need to hate it? Is it because it is Japanese? Because it's modern? I don't know. All I know is it has been a great thing for it to come into my life and it is PAYING FOR ITSELF IN SAVINGS ON DIESEL FUEL.

The car will be FREE. I am NOT driving into the gas station every week and handing over a fistful of twenties. At the end of the month, the twenties (that I am still gripping in my fist) total MORE than the car payment. Tell me again what the downside is? I feel like I am missing something. This is a group I thought I was comfortable exchanging information with and I actually had come to know some of the guys and if those guys, (including guys like Royce) whose opinion I had come to respect, says my car is crap, then I need to learn what makes it crap. Tell me. Tell me now, in your very next post. Don't keep a poor idiot like me in suspense - I need to know what you guys all know... because the only things I know are from actual driving experience for 9,000 miles and seven months' time.

Royce, not to put too fine a point on it, but electricity is not "storage" it is delivery. And my car runs on a variety of fuel sources. You, also, seem to need the car to be a gross polluter - but again, where is your devotion to the environment when it comes to your electric consumption? Are you concerned about coal and gas when you turn on your air conditioner in Texas? Do you sit in the dark fretting over the source of the current coursing through your walls?

Yes, please, call my car a fantasy, because sometimes it seems like one. A dream, really. While you pat yourself on the back driving whatever it is you drive, I will, too. I bet we are both happy with our respective machines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 08:51 am:

Dan,

Your car is good for you because the rest of us are paying for it. It exists because the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia took the money from all of us and gave it to you.

I know you like your car and I understand why. I hope you can understand what it and other similar programs are doing to our economic situation in this country. It is a mindset that is dooming all of us to be servants of the Chinese in the end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:12 am:

Oh, Royce, you conveniently ignore the fact that the oil industry is the biggest welfare recipient in the US. The more fuel you use, the more you suck from the public teat.

We pay our fair share for electricity here. My bill is tiered, and the more I use, the more each KWH costs. Most months I get into the .35/kwh level.

We Californians are subsidizing oil and gas producing states.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:51 am:

Ralphie,

There is a place I won't mention...but you do know where and my price per KWH is a flat 9.5 cents per. My only gripe is that it is debitcard prepaid and if I forget to feed the meter, right in the middle of something the whole place goes dark. :-)

It's source is a biomass generating plant built by the Brits, and with stack scrubbers made by an American company. It was done as a 'free enterprise' model meaning no govt. subsidies involved, nor govt. control. The fuel is 100% rice hulls and southern CA grows rice, right? Just sayin'...not needling :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 10:40 am:

Interesting, George. What's the cost of labor to feed that?

Don't get me started on farm subsidies, especially cotton...

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 11:59 am:

Sure Royce. We have chased through all of your other convoluted and provably invalid reasons for opposing electric cars, so now let’s move on to your newest #1 main most-hated reason, those filthy rotten undeserved tax credits that liberals are using to bleed you dry.

We probably need look no further than your clever reference to the “People’s Republik of Kalifornia” to determine the real source of your resentment but still, these niggling tax credits just BUG you, right? From what I am able to ascertain, you feel I and other early adopters of electric cars should not get them. You apparently believe and you resent that somehow California has “stolen” something from you and, referring back to your semi-Eastern Blok spelling, you wish to imply a Communist or Socialist taint.

But if we look at facts and not simple innuendo, we will see that it was actually your Republican former Governor, former President George W. Bush, who signed the electric vehicle tax credit program. He also, you inexplicably neglected to mention, unveiled the initiative which offered rebates of $24,000 to $75,000 for buyers of SUVs and trucks. Wow. That’s, like, WAY more than the amount I got. WOW. Anyway, do you remember that now, Royce?
So it wasn’t really the “People’s Republik of Kalifornia” like you erroneously claimed, was it?
No, it was really your former Governor of your very own home state of Texas, former President George W. Bush.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 12:44 pm:

Hey Dan,

I'm one of those ignorant people you referred to earlier. But, you know what, I'm a satisfied, happy person who generally likes people, even those who disagree with me. You, on the other hand, seem like someone who is generally perturbed at the world and with people who think differently than you do and you feel the need to let it all be known.

You can call me ignorant then if you want but I wouldn't trade it for your "common sense" or "intelligence" any day.

Have a nice day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Kiefaber on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 12:57 pm:

I suppose you don't believe in Bigfoot as well :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

Ralph, :-)

You know my answer before asking...lol...

The 'free enterprise' Tier One guys have employees who at most levels have more actual disposable income than their American counterparts. OK, their materialistic goals are not as great (yet)but if they don't buy and need a car...my guys have more left over at the end of the month in real US Dollar equivalent amounts than what anyone wants anyone to believe thru the media.

Rather than post it, anyone wants the honest to pete truth, drop me a PM...what I'll show is fact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

It doesn't matter which party gave away the store. It just needs to stop now. All subsidies for anything. Now.

Kalifornia has had an uninterupted series of liberal kooks running it, and there is precious little difference between Gray Davis or Arnold Swarzenneger or Jerry Brown except that one has a german accent and the other two don't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 01:14 pm:

Dan, you present a strong argument for the viability of electric vehicles, However I have to agree with Jerry...The loudest person in an discussion is not necessarily the winner of the argument.

I have learned one important thing from you and that is the discrepancy between motor fuel costs VS power plant energy cost.

A rational person would expect closer parity between the cost of motor fuel cost and electric utility energy cost for each mile driven.

Assuming 30 mpg for the average compact car, your cost should be around $3.50 for each 30 mile trip not the $1.00 you are paying. This is what has me perplexed.

Can we take off the gloves and have a cool and rational discussion about this? Trust me I am your friend as others are on the forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 01:29 pm:

Dan, I also must say you present a good argument for electric cars. I would consider one IF batteries didn't dislike the often severe cold weather we have here and IF I didn't frequently need to travel 200 miles one way to either of the 2 major cities in the state. My trips to the office, around town, etc would be better served with an electric car but I would still need to own a vehicle to pull my T and travel to Sioux Falls or Rapid City, each about 200 miles away. For ME, I cannot justify the expense of another vehicle just for in town use. If I lived where you live and traveled the distance to work you do, I would certainly consider it.
I also consider the other fuel costs and environmental impact of my heat, air conditioning, and other uses. I happen to live 5 miles from one of the major non-poluting sources of electricity, the Oahe Dam. Our electricity is some of the cheapest in the nation. It is still cheaper to heat with natural gas, which releases hydrocarbons into the atmosphere.
Again, I enjoy the discussion and am learning here. I don't think I am the enemy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 03:10 pm:

John,

The biggest discrepancy between operating costs of electric versus IC engines is that in most cases (there are special cases that fall outside this generalization) vehicles driven by IC engines average about 25-30% thermal efficiency and electric vehicles run at about 75-80% TE. That means that about 3/4 of the energy that you purchase in the form of gasoline is dissipated as heat and electric turns about 3 times that amount of the energy going in into propulsion. So you math of $3.50 of gas equals $1.00 of electricity works out to support the very generic rule of thumb that electric propulsion is about 3 times more efficient.

A gallon of gas contains roughly 33kWh of energy and around here costs about $4. At $0.12 /kWh, 33kWh would cost $3.96. So around here, energy costs just about the same, whether delivered as gasoline or electricity. I would guess that doing the math with the figures for your area should work out to a similar parity.

Of course, there are tiered prices for electricity. When demand is low, the utilities make it cheap and when demand is high, they charge me more (up to 3 times more) but that is kind of the supply and demand conversation (not exactly, because the utility is the exclusive provider for my area) with some immediate incentives/disincentives to encourage load shifting to low demand periods. So sometime the comparison will be skewed towards electricity and other times it will be skewed towards petro fuels.

Just some food for thought.

Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 03:11 pm:

Hi, Jerry VanOoteghem –
I don’t remember what you and I may have talked about when I, as you say, called you ignorant. Please help me remember, refresh my memory and tell me when it was, or paste it here, so I can re-read it.
Cheers
Dan

Royce –
So… it doesn’t matter, it is just STILL all “Kalifornia’s” fault, huh? Even though LEAF (and other electric vehicle) buyers from the other 49 states get the federal tax credits, it is the fault of “Kalifornia”. I think I see where this is going, but I will ask anyway, how is it now Arnold Schwarzenegger’s fault that electric cars are impractical? You may answer using a German accent if it makes you feel your explanation will be more powerful. I don’t understand how you seem to conflate everything that irks you, from “liberal kooks” to Gray Davis to electric power plants into your hatred of electric cars. Are you able to constrain yourself to an actual reason? Or is the electric car merely the scapegoat for a long, long, long list of unrelated complaints you have been collecting?

John Semprez –
Now that we have broken through the haze of resentment and obfuscation, we can discuss reality.
As I said earlier, I was spending thousands of dollars per year fueling an aging truck. The truck was not long for this world and I needed a replacement vehicle. I went to the various auto shows (The new car show in Sacramento and the International Auto Show at Moscone Center in San Francisco. I walked miles through the aisles, I sat in dozens of cars and looked at acres of window stickers. I went to several dealerships and test drove all kinds of cars. The small 40 mpg cars are simply too small. The rooflines are too low, the back seats are worthless. They deliver little in the way of comfort and they deliver zero performance. My friend who I mentioned earlier with the GM EV-1 (which was crushed by GM) has been singing the praises of electric cars for years and years. I never gave the possibility a thought. I did not even CONSIDER it to be an option. But he worked on me. One day a story appeared in the local paper about a guy who had taken delivery of the first Nissan LEAF in the area. I had read about the LEAF, my interest was piqued, but still I was skeptical. So, I decided to stalk the LEAF owner. I looked him up in the phonebook and, to look less like a weirdo, I drove to his address in the 1925 Lincoln. I apparently worked, he offered to let me drive the car. I was amazed at its size. The doors are HUGE. The roof is so high I could wear one of Royce’s Texas cowboy hats in the car. The seat felt like it had been molded to my butt. The steering wheel was right “there”. The visibility is unequalled in a modern car. Its acceleration will flatten you against the seat and it will do 95 miles an hour (I’ve never done it, but so I’m told).

The owner who let me drive his car was wildly enthusiastic about it. Later, I talked with my electric car owning friend and he had only great things to say. I read everything I could find, I watched every You Tube LEAF video, I spent hours with my calculator. This, I concluded, could work. So I started shopping and found one, an orphan someone had ordered and couldn’t wait any longer for it and they bought something else. I have driven my truck exactly 20.0 miles since I got the LEAF in February (I needed to haul some things).

If I owned a small car already, John, the LEAF would not have been a wise choice; the savings would come nowhere near the level needed to support it. But with the price, after credits (thanks Royce!) being ~$21,000, the fuel savings will make it work. Yes, I could have bought something that gets 30 mpg, but what? The LEAF gets more than that. I know you are tired of hearing it, but the car is fantastic. It exceeds my wildest expectations. The traction batteries are thin and flat and carried under the floor, giving the car an unbelievably low center of gravity. It is fun to slice through corners like a slot car. I can challenged to little races all the time by people who don’t know what a slingshot the car is from a stop.

Let’s visit your question about the hypothetical 30 mpg car and $3.50 per 30 mile trip.
Alright, first we have to get home, so the round trip becomes $7.00.
I can charge for free at work and, for that matter, at lots of places (stores, restaurants, etc.).
My figure of $1 was rounded, it is a tiny bit little less, around $0.85.
So we have a difference of $6.15 per day. That’s lunch.
In a week that’s more than $30. That’s a tank of gas for one of the Model Ts.
In a year that’s almost $1,600. That’s a brass radiator.

The car is fun, comparatively inexpensive (fully in line with comparable gas cars), roomy, comfortable and it is unbelievably cheap to operate despite what people here with no experience have to say. The power is domestic and my money doesn’t go overseas to people I don’t trust. How much money do you spend at the gas station, John? BP needs more? Standard Oil needs your cash? OPEC Arabs need more Bentleys with solid gold door handles? PG&E has a plan where EV owners can charge between midnight and 7 AM for .05 cents per kilowatt/hour. Do you know that will lower my commute cost to $0.30. That is ONE CENT PER MILE.

The Lincoln Motor Company used a slogan for a time that read, “It’s not what you pay, it’s what it costs you.”


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 04:15 pm:

:-) :-) this funny thread is full of comedians!

Some one once said - "Whatever floats your boat!"

A Leaf would be unpractical for me.

When I'm not in a big airplane or taxi in China -
I drive 52 miles each way to work with at least half of it being at 70 MPH.
according to their web site if I drove a Leaf I would only get half way home each day even if I kept the speed below 55.
If I used the AC in the summer or heater in the winter I'd be lucky to get to work.

But I wouldn't have to worry because I be dead due to someone plowing into the rear of the Leaf going 55.
I would not have to worry about it bursting into flames but the acid from the battery might hurt a bit.

Anyway - who in their right mind would want to drive a vehicle that is called Leaf?
It sounds so -- ah mmm -- twiggy, like a something headed for the compost pile.
With that in mind why not call it grass clippings, pine needle, or left over organic table scraps?
Instead of a little pine scented tree hanging from the rearview mirror it could have a bag of garlic to ward off the demons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 04:52 pm:

I agree that many folks do not fully consider the full cost of any product or service, be it in climate or dollars,
(those who for instance protest against all use of oil must have gotten to the protest site naked, hungry and tired
after walking barefoot across unpaved prairie, and were homeless where they came from, if indeed no oil was involved),

Now I’m not planning to buy an electric car, but I’m curious to know if the price per kWh being quoted in some of
the above replies is the base price of the power or actual cost at the plug in.

Here is an electricity bill in Calgary . . .

Base Energy Charge – 873.000 kWh @ 0.07/kWh - $61.11
(The above was a locked in price for 5 years, that changed this month to 0.08/kWh – 5 year lock in)
Sounds reasonable – Right?
But the following is calculated on percentages and/or number of days billed, not a flat fee each month.
Administration Charge $7.71
Distribution Charge – $17.41
Balancing Pool Allocation ($4.94) Credit
Trans Access Defer Acct Rider - $13.51
Transmission Charge - $11.14
Local Access Fee - $11.14

Total cost - $123.03
Plus GST (Federal Goods and Services Tax @ 5%) - $6.15

For a grand total of - $129.18 or – 0.148/kWh which pretty well doubles the actual kWh cost to get it to my wall plug.

Still I think quite reasonable, but I find many people seem to be unaware of the complete cost when asked what they are paying.

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 05:44 pm:

There's no such thing as free anything except sunlight and air. If you are not paying for it then it is being subsidized and the state of California will just go bankrupt sooner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 05:59 pm:

The Texan outlaws at Enron sure did a job on California ten years ago. We still haven't recuperated from that bunch of eco-terrorists. They probably were behind the recall of Gray Davis, who did no worse than the guy who followed, and who may have gone after them.

People even suspect Ken Lay's death was faked, and think he's living in Paragay.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 06:27 pm:

LOL
Next Royce will be holding parasols over people's heads to keep them from getting any of "his" sun. Keep struggling, Royce. You're almost winning.

Doctor Noel, I think a LEAF would not be for you. Yes, they hate extreme cold and the heaters are not exactly flamethrowers! They are fine in California (or, for Royce, Kalifornia, said with scary Soviet overtones while holding a flashlight under his face). It gets into the 20s here sometimes, but usually just around freezing is the coldest we commonly see. Honestly, unless you were in need of a second car or a commuter, the math isn't there. People who drive far just can't do it. People in severe climates can't, either. But that is OK. You see, if people in temperate areas were to use just 20% less petroleum fuel, it would make a huge difference. There are about 20,000+ LEAFS in service (I think, maybe more). Think of the gas those 20,000 cars are saving.

I like to fill my gas tank and drive antiques as much or more than anyone. And I love boat rides! Speed boat rides! Let's hear it for trail bikes! YAY! 4-wheeling! YAY! Let's go! I love car races. So why burn up gas just driving to work when I can save some for the weekend? Why burn petroleum just to burn it when I don't have to? Unless they kill each other fighting over oil or who has the best invisible friend, humans will be on earth a long time. Despite opinions to the contrary, evidence we can see indicates the earth has been here for billions of years. Estimates of oil for another hundred years is ridiculous. Humans will, it is to be hoped, be around for thousands of years. What will we be leaving to those generations, not 50 years in the future, but 500 years from now? Ten thousand years from now. Ten thousand years is only twice the age of the pyramids but still a geological blink of an eye.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

The problem I see with this discussion of electric cars VS IC powered cars is that the electric car propulsion system is nothing more than a transmission using energy stored in a battery for its conversion into torque and rotational energy. Most manual transmissions are close to the high 90's in efficiency which compares nicely to an electric cars efficiency IF we compare apples to apples.

But the real thermal efficiency of the electric car cannot be limited to how efficiently it converts the energy stored in cells in to motion, it must include the efficiency of IT'S prime mover... the utility grid.

What I have a problem with is that most coal and oil fired power plants have total efficiencies at around 30% or less. Since they turn fuel into steam which turns a turbine to generate electricity, what happens when the demand goes down? The boiler still has heat which becomes waste heat, at zero thermal efficiency.

So the prime mover in a CI automobile is its inefficient engine, but the prime mover for an electric car is a big inefficient utility power plant.

Wind, Hydro, and solar convert zero cost fuel into electric energy so efficiency is not a big deal, and a good way to power our automobiles but those sources contribute a very small percentage of the total electricity generated if you look at our entire national energy production.

I just wish we could strip away the heated rhetoric and look at the whole picture, as I said, on an apples to apples basis. We may have break through technology here but how would one know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 08:51 pm:

But John, you are blaming the car for inefficiencies in an infrastructure that exists and operates whether or not the car is being charged. The power plants run when the car is not plugged in and when it is plugged in, it ads only about $30 worth of power consumption to my monthly bill. This is less power than is used by a single refrigerator. The power plants run on a scale difficult to imagine and “the grid” is a fearsome thing. Yes, it has thermal losses and transmission losses. It hums and crackles with losses. But there is still an inherent economy of that scale; of a power plant running constantly for months at a time, churning out energy continuously. Whatever their fuel, once they are hot they need to STAY HOT to stay efficient. Currently, every night the power plants must start reducing their output as people turn off their TVs, turn out the lights and go to bed, only to fire back up and get ready for when lights snap on, coffee is brewed, and business resumes tomorrow morning. To minimize the effects of these peak & valley use cycles, power companies are asking electric car owners to charge at night, when surplus power generating capacity is available (hence the reduced rate by PG & E). Keeping the temperature and output constant at a power plant is more efficient than 40,000 little motors starting and stopping. If tiny, personal-scale production was more efficient, everyone would have a home generator. We would live like that LEAF commercial “Gas Powered Everything” (pretty funny – Google it for a laugh). But as we know, petroleum fuel-burning home electric power generation is so extravagantly wasteful and prohibitively expensive and is not done unless there are no other options. Our power grid – flawed and antiquated as it currently is – is still better than gas-powered alternatives.

What is the true cost of our use of petroleum motor fuel on the scale we are now using it worldwide? Exploration, drilling, pumping, transporting, refining, more transporting, storage, transporting again & more pumping. Every single time a cold motor is started it is inefficient. When it is running it is toxic and the fumes will kill you. What to do with waste motor oil? Junk tranny fluid? Medical bills? What is the real cost for all this? It’s a LOT. You have heard the air warnings on horrible smoggy days – stay indoors, don’t exert yourself, don’t let your kids play…

Yes, we must upgrade our power grid infrastructure to further minimize losses – and perhaps electric cars might spur that effort.
What I know for sure is that if we don’t do anything, nothing will get done.
Save the antique fuel for antique cars! (and stuff that can’t be electric – like NOISY SPEEDSTERS!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 08:52 pm:

Energy storage with the (as I understand it)inefficient battery is a problem. I have an off the grid home in the Black Hills that has 9 solar cells each able to put out 185 watts at peak. I'm not there much of the time. I'm using 8 6volt batteries now but would love to use a gyroscope or similarly efficient system to store energy, but nobody makes such a thing for home use. I realize they don't work in a car as it has to turn and doesn't want to flip, but mounted horizontally in the basement would be great! Are there any other portable energy storage systems out there? are there any other standing energy storage systems that can store a lot of energy?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 08:59 pm:

Hi Art,

You makes good point. It's not just the cost per kWh to be considered, but the whole bill. I just went and pulled data from Southern California Edison concerning my billing and usage history (they certainly don't make that easy) and since Jan 2011 thru my current bill (August), I've used 9459kWh for a total billing of $1424.12 or an average cost of $0.1506/kWh. Worse that the $0.12 that I mentioned before, but not too bad for Los Angeles. That works out to $4.97 for the equivalent of 1 gallon of gas (33 kWh) for my average billing.

My commuter car, an '07 Honda Fit has averaged 32.64mpg over its 81,000 mile life (yes, I actually keep track, much to my wife's chagrin). I filled up yesterday at $4.099/gal, giving a cost of $0.126/mile for gas alone. I'm looking at being one of the early adopters for the 2013 Honda Fit EV. It has a 20kWh battery pack and they claim an average range of 80+ miles, but I'll use 70 miles for estimating. At my average rate of $0.1506/kWh, that's $3.01 for a full charge. Doing the simple math, that works out to $0.043/mile for electricity alone, barely more than 1/3 the gasoline cost of the IC version of the same car. I test drove the Fit EV and it is quicker and feels more powerful than my gas Fit. I can't speak to canyon carving, they didn't let me take it that far.

My electric bill has no special subsidies, these are everyday rates. If I do get the Fit EV, I would sign up for a EV tiered account with SCE which uses their lowest rate of $0.65/kWh off-peak (9:00pm to noon) and $0.155/kWh for the afternoon/evenings. For me the cost per mile would be less than $0.02/mile for electricity alone. That's more than $0.10/mile cheaper than my gas Fit in fuel costs. With a round trip commute of 40 miles that is not insignificant.

That said, even with my past experience with electric cars, and a very positive opinion of them, it is still a tough call. Sure, I've got plenty of alternatives to drive if I expect to go more than 70 miles at once (certainly less than 5% of my Fit driving). But I like my '07. And it's fully paid for. But it is definately getting older. Maybe it's time for a manufactured EV for me. Maybe not. But it is a viable option, not for everyone, but it is for me.

Just remember that there is no good financial justification for owning a Model T, or a sailboat, or an old house. I own them too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

Whats the difference between a Model T and an Electric car???
A Model T :
A Wont explode in flames in your garage
B Is still drivable after more than 100 Years.
C You can drive it cross country without recharging it every 53 Miles.
D Is better looking
E Sales for 10+ times what it originally cost decades later.
F The owners probably don't hug every tree they see
AH HA HA HA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 09:21 pm:

Hi John,

I used my costs for analysis because I have to assume that all of the losses and inefficiencies in production and distribution are already factored into my cost. Electricity is delivered to outlets almost everywhere and gasoline available almost everywhere I drive. My comparison is apples to apples. It is my cost of energy divided into my miles of transportation. It's up to the oil companies and the utility company to make me pay for what I use. They both get considerable subsidies, and neither of them seem to pass them on to me. They both have considerable waste, and they include that in my price.

So when I buy energy at either $4.099 for a gallon of gas, or at $4.97 for a "gallon" of electricity, that's it. From there it is only how I turn that into distance covered. And the distance covered is takes less energy using electric, and is cheaper per mile based on what I pay.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 10:34 pm:

AND THE WINNER OF THIS P'''' CONTEST Is ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 10:47 pm:

Well.... The winner is... it could be none of us or all of us! I read the whole thread for some fliping reason and am not impressed with the arguments on ether side.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 10:51 pm:

How does hauling Compressed Natural Gas compare to batteries?

I've studied CNG a little, and even at 4,000 psi, it takes up about six times as much space as gasoline. That means it doesn't adapt readily to a small car the way gasoline does. However, CNG tanks fit under a full size pickup or van, where CNG begins to make sense.

Which is more efficient?

Converting CNG to horsepower in a vehicle? It can get equivalent mileage to a gas fueled vehicle, at a fraction of the price.

Converitng NG to electricity at a power plant and sending it to your home over wires. That energy is stored in batteries of course, which weigh more than CNG tanks. Hmm, depleted batteries weigh just as much as fully charged batteries. The unique advantage of electric is regenerative braking.

You just can't beat gasoline for energy density, either in volume or weight.

Ah, for the good old days of 2000, when gas was $1.50 a gallon.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, August 23, 2012 - 10:54 pm:

Lets get back to talking about T's. How about them water pumps and e timers!

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 12:16 am:

What is the best oil to use? My neighbor says it's best to use 10W30 detergent oil but my mechanic says non-detergent is best. And the question comes down to "What would Jesus do?" And does anybody care?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 12:26 am:

What about Hydrogen.....? Now there's the answer....;^).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 12:37 am:

Yeah, It almost worked for the Hindenburg. We could at least put it in Volkswagons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 12:50 am:

What's a little static electricity among friends...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 12:55 am:

There seems to be a whole lot of static on this thread. But then, that's what happens when the kids stay up too late. BOOM!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 01:00 am:

Ha! Need some levity on this thread...way too serious....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 01:03 am:

Was it Barney Fife that called it all "Jocularity".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 01:21 am:

Had to look that one up Mike. First thought it had to do with sports bathroom breaks...get it, Jock regularity....Oh well......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 02:01 am:

If you can get positive yield capturing hydrogen, the world will beat a freeway (path) to your door.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 03:53 am:

It was Father Mulcahy (sp?) on M*A*S*H. I don't know if I want to admit I knew that or not.
the Phantom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 04:26 am:

CNG is a bit of a pipe dream unless you compare it with the driving range of the electrics.
The comparison ends however when it comes to refuelling. CNG requires very expensive and somewhat short lived compressors
at each refuelling point that are capable of supplying the 3000+ psi required to fill the high pressure tanks.
One of the few truck stops that tried to provide CNG spent a rumoured 100 grand on the compressor station etc.
and shut it down when their compressor was worn out. Our local gas company still has 2 compressor locations to supply the few
of their own small trucks that are still CNG equipped, and word has it that there will be an attempt by trucking companies to test
some larger over the road trucks on CNG between Calgary and Edmonton. Might be feasible if the truck is a tanker hauling CNG,
and has two trailers. One for the load, and one for his fuel!
1 US gallon of CNG has aprox 58000 btu’s compared with 1 gallon of gasoline at aprox. 128000 btu.
Fuel injected Propane would be a better option, with some sort of filler hose return to capture the vapour released when filling up the tank. Propane has 2 ½ times the BTU per Cu Ft vapour than CNG, and normal pressure in the tank is around 100 lbs.
We still have a couple of stations that sell propane at 1/2 the price of gasoline, but most are quite a bit higher.
I still have my (seldom used) deck truck on propane (not injected), with a 30+ US gal (@ 80% fill) tank on each side,
plus a 20+ gal gas tank in the center.



Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:35 am:

And all of this has ? to do with Model T's?

Another reason why I'm reading this Forum less and less.

I'd avoided opening up this thread until today. Now I wish I'd passed and not wasted the time.

The internet is a vast place to post rubbish and it's too bad this was the venue that this mess landed in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 08:18 am:

Thanks for sharing your experience, Art. I got interested when T. Boone Pickens was hyping it a few years ago. He recommended LNG for long haul. Dunno how that's worked out.

The beauty of NG is it requires no refining. Besides that, it's dirt cheap now; cheaper for electricity than coal, I read. What use does coal have that NG won't do, smelters?


rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 04:36 pm:

Further re: CNG
With apologies to Scott (just in case he is still reading this thread)
I should have mentioned that our local natural gas utility would install a “Slow Fill’
device in your garage (and perhaps a few key downtown locations) that would fill or
partially fill your CNG tank overnight or while you were in your workplace. The vehicle
conversions were for the most part dual fuel, gasoline and CNG so you were never stuck.
The cost of the 'slow fill' and it’s install would be amortized over a long period on your utility bill.
It gathered a few followers at the time, but never became a serious contender.
The initial thinking by a few ‘big wigs’ was that every service station had a natural gas
line running to it for heating, so the delivery system was already in place – until someone
mentioned 'the compressor’ <@^@>
The average car needs 4 hours of slo fill for a 50 mile range, and of course the pump requires
“220v power” to charge fill your tank. Sound familiar???

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:01 am:

Jeez scott, take a breath. This forum and what goes in it, really isn't worth getting to worked up over. Most of the discussion on this forum is nothing more than a bunch of old guys flexing their intelligence muscles. And that normally ends with some disagreement. But it's really not worth getting worked up over. As a matter of fact most of what gets written on here has little to do with actual hands-on knowledge and teaching of how to keep our T's on the road. I find this forum entertaining and for the most part humorous. However there are guys on here like Steve Jelf and Ron the Coilman and Ralph (Ricks-Surf City or Royce that I'd love have walk into my shop for 10 minutes a day and have them give me advice. But if they feel like they want to stray off topic once in a while; so what?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:58 am:

This thread alone can power the electric cars because like the energizer bunny it keeps going


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 07:18 am:

Our utility bills are required by law to state the cost of your power consumption per day... with a break down of kWh rates.

I think the "avearge Australian houshold" uses 16kWh/day

We have off peak that is about a third the normal day rate, but day tariff is broken into blocks, first 1200, next 2800, next 6000, next 10,000kWh/pa

Cheapest is winter @ 24.82cents
Summer peak is 41.613cents

Supply charge of 65cents/day

We now have a much debated carbon tax that may drive that price even further north. Nothing like putting a price on pollution to make people more efficient:-)

Hey Royce, I couldn't help notice you mention that sunshine is free... now that photovoltaics are under a dollar a watt... who wouldn't want to harness that to run your fridge?

Heating hot water is even cheaper.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 11:54 am:

If you ever wondered which side of the fence you sit on, this is a great
test!

If a Republican doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one.
If a Democrat doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a Republican is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.
If a Democrat is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for
everyone.

If a Republican is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a Democrat is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a Republican is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his
situation.
A Democrat wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Republican doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Democrats demand that those they don't like be shut down.

If a Republican is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A Democrat non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

If a Republican decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for
it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A Democrat demands that the rest of us pay for his.

If a Republican reads this, he'll have a
good laugh.
A Democrat will call his mommy because he is "offended".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:05 pm:

A Democrat want to legislate what goes on in boardrooms.

A Republican wants to legislate what goes on in bedrooms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 03:02 pm:

Royce should join the Republican party and begin following their rules ASAP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 11:28 am:

Just for some complete thread drift...

I'm interested to know from all you blokes in the US, did you watch the opening ceremony for the olympics? and what did you make of the Poms celebrating by jumping on public hospital beds?

I think the NHS is the UK's biggest single employer. We have free health care in Australia as well, which runs in parallel with a private insurance scheme, which will buy you a shorter waiting list and a private room. Nobody asks for insurance details if you're taken to the casualty room here, you get fixed up regardless.

I like your last point Ricks... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 12:02 pm:

Royce, How true!


Ralph,

Democrats want to bring everyone DOWN to the same level.

Republicans want to raise everyone UP to the same level.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 02:15 am:

Two things: It's strange this thread still has a life, and how in the heck did this thing become political. At first there was a touch of intelligence being shown and now there's a whole lot of stupid in the room.


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