l had seen a "blip" on American Pickers this week of a T being kick started. l just tried it and l like it !
I didn't care for my broken arm. I doubt that I'd like a broken leg much better.
I've learned how to protect both my arm AND my leg when cranking: I make my wife do it!
I think I will design and install a air starter on mine!:>)
I prefer to start mine useing the heel of my foot.
No broke arms or legs.
Besides,kick starting is for Harleys!
It's your foot. If your timing is set correctly you'll probably never have an incident ... but do you want to take that chance? All it takes is one forgetful glance at yer wall hanging to crank without checking the spark advance and you're on the phone to paramedics (and then the boss).
This was also recently mentioned as the preferred method of starting by another Forum member. Please stick to the proper way and live a long healthy life. If that isn't enough of a warning, think about this:
Is yer missus gonna help you with personal hygiene in the bathroom when you come home with a new cast on yer arm or yer leg?? Seriously, think about it !!
Regards,
Garnet
I have seen it done on a Cat tractor, but I never could get the hang of it and prefer the hand method
That' crazy!!!!
I suspect if any of us are around Model Ts long enough, we will have one backfire eventually. In my case I've seen it happen when I forgot to retard the timing [driver error-but I think most of us are human and still make mistakes every now and then. And it is a great attention getter. I have not forgotten since that one very exciting time the crank was pulled from by hand.] I also saw it happen when as a six year old kid I "goofed" and advanced the spark lever just as my Dad started to pull up on the crank rather than after the engine started (hey he didn't even say any words that Mom would have gotten mad at him about. But we did have a short review on when was supposed to pull the spark lever down!). Having the wife start the car is an option. But be very careful with this also. There is a photo in one of the Horseless Carriage Gazettes of a wife with her arm in a cast resting in a sling and not looking very happy next to their car. He had asked her to crank their T and from memory (not as good as it used to be) I think he had forgotten to properly retard the spark. And if something goes wrong (Murphy is still alive and well) it might backfire for other reasons – such as a glowing piece of carbon on the head or something wrong somewhere. [I’ll let the electrical gurus share if it is or is not possible for a short in the wiring to cause the engine to backfire.] So while a conscientious person who maintains his T and does not start other people’s Ts greatly reduces the chance of the engine backfiring – it might still happen. And if you are pulling up on the crank you will be in a much better condition afterwards than if you are pushing down on the crank with your hand or with your foot. Pulling up with your left hand is the second safest way to start the engine. Depressing the starter button is probably the safest way to start it. (It can still backfire – but the Bendix doesn’t complain about it hurting and it can be replaced much quicker than a broken bone will heal.) As Royce correctly points out, a properly maintained Model T engine should start easily with the hand crank – and I would add – when pulled up with the left hand.
We each have to determine what level of risk we want to accept. Driving my two wheel rear brakes only T that doesn’t have many if any modern safety features is higher risk than driving my wife’s modern airbag equipped car. But I accept that risk as reasonable for the pleasure I enjoy from driving the T. And if you really enjoy starting the T by stepping down on the crank – as long as you have thought it through and realize that if the engine does backfire for some reason -- the crank is going to spin backwards even if you are pushing down with 275 pounds plus – that is fine. But please do not encourage others to try it without having them fully understand it could put them in the hospital and on crutches if something went wrong.
Mark Twain’s quote has helped me at times like this – “It is better to be safe a 1000 times than dead once.” And having spent two months on and off crutches and wearing and not wearing a leg cast from a motorcycle accident, I can say that crutches are no fun (especially when the floor is wet).
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
If you simply make your T run correctly, you will see how this is nonsense. (2) 1/4 turn pulls with choke to prime. (1) 1/4 pull to start. How hard is that?
I don't use the foot start anymore, I added a starter with a solenoid and starter button, works for me. I do have the crank there if someone wants to use it.
Bob
Here is a video demo of kick start.
You Tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erhVtmB7arE&list=UU1h0wEWNCt1_R2AAdzMNREQ&index=5 &feature=plcp
This familiar video demonstrates what Doug said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCWnmPrxKo0
I have used a version of the "kick start" only once but it was not on a T. I was starting a International TD14 with a dead battery. For those of you that don't know, this is a 4cyl Diesel crawler tractor that starts on gas and runs on diesel. I would climb up on the left track and step off the track with one leg on the crank. NOT fun.
No I will never kick start another engine again. Its a task for the young and dumb.
Bill
I was in a hurry to crank start my T at a "Horseless Rodeo" It was a race to see who could crank start and go around the track fastest. I forgot to retard the spark. The crank made about 2 very fast turns backward. When I saw how fast it goes, I realized that if I had used my right hand I probably would have a broken arm or hand. I used the left hand and did 1/4 turn and raised my arm out of the way, which is my usual way to crank it. I don't see how one could get a leg out of the way fast enough to avoid a kick. You might get lucky and never have a problem, but a kick in the shin is very unpleasant and could make you use crutches for a while.
Norm
Mebbe if you used your left leg...
Only north of the equator.
I know I'm gonna regret this, but ..............
OK, I understand everyone's reluctance to adopt something new, but how about analysing the situation first?
We are encouraged to hand crank using the left hand, palm on the outside of the crank circle, so if a backfire occurs your knuckles are safely outside the crank circle.
Using the method shown, it would seem somewhat analogous. Your foot is on the outside of the crank circle and should automatically slip off the handle when you reach the 5:00 or 5:30 position. I would think there would be an equal chance of damage using either method (assuming a backfire).
I realize there is a certain amount of safety in using a tried and true system, but can anyone put aside the "if Henry did it its good enough for me" philosophy and give their analysis of the dangers of foot cranking as shown ??
BTW I don't intend to adopt this method....just trying to analyze the added danger involved (if any).
Cheers
schuh
A couple of things to think about: 1. How is your balance? It looks in the picture as though you will be putting your weight on the right leg and when it slips off the crank it will go down and if it is in line with the crank, too bad! It will take some time to move the leg out of the way. 2. If your car has a bumper, your leg will be between the bumper and the crank. Not a good position to be in.
When you crank with the left hand, you are pulling up, so the momentum is with you as you quickly lift the arm out of the way. You will also be in line to run around to advance the spark. Something like how a left handed batter has an advantage to get to first base more quickly.
I prime the car using the right hand and the ignition off. Then I turn on the ignition, and if I don't get a "free start" I pull up with the left hand when the ignition is on to start the car.
Norm
My mother in law used to kick start her Model T when she was growing up and knocked the heel off of her fancy shoe once.
Whatever you do.....Dont wrap your big toe around the HANDLE...........I think I'll stick with my starter....or.....Left-hand cranking....Carl
If it backfires your knee might hit your chin.
If your knee hits your chin, you might bite your tongue.
If you bite your tongue, you might bleed.
If you bleed, you might need a transfusion.
If you need a transfusion, you might have to give blood.
If you give blood, you might have to eat a cookie.
If you eat a cookie you might want a glass of milk.
If you want a glass of milk, you might have to see a cow.
If you see a cow, you might have to walk to the country.
If you have to walk to the country, you'll remember that it would have been easier to start the T with your left hand!
Assuming only a speed of 300RPM = 5 rotations per second. That means when your engine kicks back and your leg falls into the path of the handle, you have less than 1/5 of a second to get out of the way. Sorry, I am not able to move that quick. Make sure you have a tourniquet on hand when it severs your femoral artery. Sounds silly, but stranger things have happened.
Personally, I think of other appendages getting in the way. Ouch.
Sorry guys. I'm gonna keep cranking right handed with my thumb wrapped. Like I've told you so many times in the past, if it ever bites me, I'll man up and confess it right here.
We all take chances every day. Some we don't know, some we do know and find the risk acceptable. I feel I take a bit of a chance each time I take Lizzy for a drive. But it is so worth it. If the foot was my only option for starting the T, I would do it just to be able to drive her.
Mary just told me that a shoe company wanted her mother to model shoes. She had tiny feet and perhaps that's why her red shoe heal broke off because it was tiny.
Fred, that makes perfect sense. Never can argue with logic.
My old friend Ted McNair who is gone now use to kick start his Model T. Ted was at least six foot tall. One day while filming the T's for a newspaper article Ted decided to start his car by kick starting it. Problem is he forgot to retard the spark. The car backfired throwing Ted into the air where he made a complete turn in the air and landed on his feet. He swore he would never do that again. In wish I had picture of that to post.
I've got a script for a silent movie with a kick starting newbie flies up in the air. I plan to use a dummy for the flying part, but if you Kickstarters will film all your starts you will eventually have the scene I need and I can incorporate it into the film...and I won't have to buy the dummy.
I got my doubts about backfiring and throwing someone into the air. A Model T only produces 83 ft-lbs of torque MAX and that is at 900 rpm on a well running engine going the right way, conditions NOT present during a kickback. But just for grins, let's say it did kick back with 83 ft-lbs of torque. With an 8" crank handle, the max force at the handle end would be 124 lbs. So if this guy weighed one ounce over 124 lbs, he's not going up at all. He'd have to weigh significantly less than 124 lbs to be accelerated to any velocity that would get him airborne. I'm thinking knocking your knee into your chin is a more probable outcome. Sorry, no offense intended. Just doesn't sound possible to me.
Hal,
An interesting though. I kind of wondered how much torque a backfire could have too. Using the 83 ft-lbs and knowing that that torque is put out full the full 360 rotation and then I would assume that the real power from the explosion occurs in about a 1/4 rotation. Then because it fires every 1/2 rotation the the torque for a 1/4 turn would have to be 2 times the 83 = 164 ft-lbs. And it also follows that under the right condition maybe it could toss a 248 lbs person at least a foot high and a lighter person higher.
I wonder if we could find a volunteer to test the theory?
Jim
So it may or may not throw you - but it will MAKE you do the standing splits, and that will turn the biggest, baddest brute into a crying, bawling baby. Nothing like getting socked in the eye by yer own knee, huh? I have heard though, if you wear a tinfoil hat you will be protected from injury ...
Garnet
Based on your theory of 83ft-lbs at 900 rpm, then at 300rpm idle speed, there should be in the area of 30ft-lbs of torque applied. I am sure anyone here can hold back 30ft-lbs, so a crankshaft being yanked out of the hand would be a moot point. In actuality, I think the equation is wrong.
I don't know how many ft-lbs it is, but I do know from experience that when a T backfires and hits you with the crank, it is amazingly fast and powerful. Luckily I use my left hand, or it would have been very ugly. (And thankfully, it hasn't happened for several years. I like to learn from my mistakes.)
An Allis Chalmers Model B, with a slightly smaller engine than a T and almost the same horsepower, easily broke my arm.
30 ft-lbs of torque is 45 lbs of force at the crank handle. Sure, you could hold that back, if you were expecting it, but you were only expecting the what? 10 lbs? You expect on starting. Easy to see how it could be pulled fro your hand. The injury comes from the wallop one revolution later. Jim may be onto something with the instantaneous torque being greater than the average, but I'm still not buying the grown man becoming airborne theory.
I think you guys are using the wrong formula. If you think a single backfire produces only 30 ft-lbs of torque, you're missing something. That's about the torque the average person can apply with a wrench. For one thing, the piston is traveling about 40' per second. That puts the piston at the bottom of the stroke (or 1/2 turn of the crank) in about 1/100 of a second. What you also don't mention is the momentum of the mass. I'm thinking a crank handle could easily lift 500 lbs. off the ground if it didn't break first.
Ken, I don't think 500 lbs is an exaggeration at all. I'm a hair under 6 ft and weigh about 265 lbs. My arms are quite a bit over average size and I've got a rotten temper. One day I was out on a tour with the club. We were rolling along at a steady speed when suddenly one of the roadsters developed a knock and was bogging down considerably. So the whole convoy of Model T's stopped to determine what the problem was with the little car. And as we were standing there looking at it, the poor thing quit running for no reason. The fella that owned the car tried to start it with the electric start but she was having a problem cranking it. So They asked if I'd crank the car for them. I figured as how I could give them a hand and grabbed the crank and gave her a good hard spin and the darn owner of the car advanced the spark thinking he'd catch her just past top dead center and the old bugger would run. Well he was a little quick on the draw with the advance and that little engine kicked with all it's force. And when she kicked it came up against my hand and arm and instead of picking me up it just flipped that little car one whole revolution. Of course it didn't start so I went to crank it again and all the guys got up on the running boards to hold 'er down. I gave the crank another pop and that's exactly what we all heard was a pop, and a crack and a grinding sound. And I quit cranking it. A few weeks later they tore the engine down to see what had happened. They found 2 rods pushed right through the tops of the pistons and two rods broke and right through the side of the block. The Crankshaft was broken and the timing gears were laying in the bottom of the oil pan. The head bolts were stretched and they said they could pick the head up off the deck about a half inch. They still don't know what caused the little roadster to start knocking in the first place but from now on they said they'd have Dave crank the car. I guess he only weighs 164 pounds.
-Mike
I'm just working with ball-park numbers. It's too late for me to finger poke on the calculator but I know there's a square of the mass in there somewhere and it's multiplied by inertia or acceleration or some such. I don't have the flywheel formula in front of me. When you consider the weight of the rotating parts coming up to speed in 1/100 of second, I guarantee there's more than 30 ft.lbs of torque on the end of the crank handle.
That's what I'm trying to say. There was a whole crapload of torque and it happened so fast and things were rotating like crazy. The inertia of the acceleration and the velocity of the torque was overwhelming. I'm not going to say the mass was squared or anything like that, but man that poor little car was a mess.
Ken,
I think you're in the ballpark. Given that the engine will put out 83 ft-lbs at 900 RPM, then this calculates to 14 HP (HP - Ft-Lbs x RPM divided by 5252)
Then if you assume that nearly the same power can be produced at 100 RPM when starting. Lets say the at the slower speed it could produce 10 HP, then solving for torque gives Ft-Lbs = HP x 5252 / RPM = 10 x 5252 / 100 = 525 Ft-Lbs of torque. That would likely be enough to launch a person a little ways.
Jim
Jim
One of the clubs should have a person launching competition and report on the results.
If it is successful they might be able to help NASA with the problems caused by decreased funding!
I volunteer anyone dumb enough to kick start their T for the test. If I saw someone kick my car I would kick them!
If you simply make your T run , you will see how this is nonsense. (2) 1/4 turn pulls with choke to prime. (1) 1/4 pull to start. How hard is that?
Doug, well, we have all been chastised now. If your car isn't set up perfectly then this formula might not work. I have had to spin my crank for the past 15 years or so for each start. I just did some fine fiddling with the timer and the coils and this morning I decided to start once on the crank... for the first time ever it started on 1/4 pull! (Well it was hot after about a 3 mile previous run.) I doubt it will happen again, but even lightening can strike twice!
With your correctly set up car I bet you can do that 1/4 turn pull and start it on the mag!
TH
As everyone knows, I have been a very vocal proponent of kick-starting, posting several long descriptions of why I think it's safer -- which I won't repeat here.
As to the business of figuring out how high a kick-back would throw you, if at all, I think all these learned discussions of foot-pounds and crank lengths (while interesting), are missing the point:
When you kick-start, you are standing on the ground on your (presumably) left leg. The crank, when at its lowest point, is something like a foot from the ground. Therefore, your knee never gets close to being straight. If a kick-back occurs, it simply bends your knee. You might get a bit of a sprained muscle, but you aren't going to be thrown anywhere.
If the crank lifts your foot to the top of its arc, then it MIGHT be able to have you knee yourself in the chin, IF you are a rather short person and/or you aren't standing up straight. But I (who am tall) find that I tend to stand quite straight when kick-starting. It's something about balance, I guess.
And just to stick the needle in a bit further, if you are standing in front of your car, rather than hunched over to reach the crank, and you DON'T sneak a peek at the spark lever to assure yourself it's all the way up, then maybe just once you need a violent reminder that you should ALWAYS check it before cranking, regardless of the method you use! (No offence intended!!)
Peter, I am completely speechless as to a response. Please refer to my first post on the subject (also no offence intended!!)
Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared.
Momentum = mass x velocity
Torque = force x length of the moment arm
I'll have to give some thought to Jim's equations above, and I'll admit I have not done that as I have just read them for the first time.
In the case of a kick back, I would contend that initially, kinetic energy nor momentum play a big part as velocity is near zero. Yes, I know that once it does kick back and is spinning backward, that the velocity could get on up there and if the crank were to hit you it will do some serious damage, but at the point ignition takes place the piston is actually going up and the crankshaft is rotating in the normal direction. The mixture is ignited. Pressure builds and slows the piston to a velocity of zero before reversing its direction. At that point, momentum and kinetic energy are both zero because velocity is zero. At this point, torque is the only thing in play and it equals the pressure of combustion x piston area x the horizontal component of whatever the angle of the crank throw is at that point. So, if someone knows what the peak pressure of combustion is for a Model T, we should be able to calculate the max torque. Unfortunately, peak pressure of combustion is not an easy figure to come by. Mean effective pressure figures are probably available, but not of much use for calculating instantaneous torque.
Something to think about: If you put some type of clutch between the starting crank and crankshaft and ran the engine at an idle speed of 300 rpm, which gives a torque of 30 ft-lbs, then held onto the starting crank while engaging the clutch I spoke of, you would stall the engine as long as you could hold 45 lbs of force with your hand. Same applies to the max torque of 83 ft-lbs at 900 rpm. You could stall the engine, if you could hold back 124 lbs at the crank handle.
I still find it hard to believe a kickback is 2, 3 or 4 times this.
OK, I looked at Jim's figures. I don't believe you can assume 10 hp at 100 rpm during starting. The curves published by Ford (Somebody better at computers than me please post that thing so we can see it here in the this thread) don't show anything below 300 rpm, but at that point they show 35 ft-lbs (Not 30 as we were assuming above) and 2 hp. Jim's Torque x rpm / 5252 equation supports this. 35 ft-lbs x 300 rpm / 5252 indeed equals 2 hp. Though the curves don't show anything below 300 rpm, they are falling FAST at that point and both appear to be approaching zero at 200 rpm.
You can figure all you want, but I know what I saw. a 6 foot, 185 lb man doing flips in the air.
Ok now here's how I see it; If you ah, multiply the length of your crank times the torque of your ft-lbs then you'll get kick back that'll launch your velocity when you jump on the fritz pins. And that equals a car that probably needs a tune-up.
I had a friends 26 coupe kick back on me once. I only use my left hand and when the engine kicked back my hand was thrown clear out of the way and was not injured. I also remember going to look at a 23 coupe and the owner told us that the previous owner had broken his ankle when the engine kicked back on him during a kick start attempt. As for me I will stick with the best proven method and crank left handed.
Stephen
You could use a conservative figure of 200psi for combustion pressure even though it usually ranges between 250-300psi. With a standard bore of 3.75", that gives you about 11 square inches. 200psi x 11 = 2200 pounds of force on the crankshaft at the moment of ignition. Granted this only lasts for about 10 degrees followed by a dramatic drop but, as you say, it occurs before TDC. This potentially sets the crankshaft in position to be a torque multiplier because of the stroke--Maybe somewhere around 3" of the possible 4". Or you could simply add the length of the crank handle as a multiplier. I'm certainly not going to test it.
The classic motorcycle guys has to try their luck at this everytime they start ..so it can't be all that bad, can it?
OK guys. I concede. I had to prove it to myself, but I concede. I went through all of the complicated geometry of crank angles, connecting rod angles, etc., etc., and made an Excel spreadsheet to calculate the forces and torques. Using Ken's 200 psi figure above (which I could surely believe), at 30 deg BTDC, there is 338 lbs of force at the crank handle. It is greatest at about 73 deg BTDC at 531 lbs at the crank handle, but the 30 degree figure is probably a more realistic estimate of where someone might have left the advance lever. 338 lbs could indeed launch even my fat @$$ a short distance into the air. My apologies.
I did enjoy the discussion, though. Interesting how the instantaneous pressures and resulting forces are orders of magnitude greater than the average over the course of the full cycle.
BTW Roger, my '59 Harley originally had manual spark advance on the left grip, but has long since been disconnected. I have a spring on the timer that keeps it pulled around to full advance. When I bought it, the guy told me to make sure I retarded the spark before kicking it over. I used to do that, but don't bother anymore. The only times it has ever kicked back was while kicking it through slowly and it was really very mild. No launching myself over the handlebars like stories I had heard. When kicking it through normally, even with the spark at full advance, the momentum carries it on through with no indication whatsoever of kicking back.