I think I've showed this picture before. My 1923 touring is a pretty good twenty foot restoration cosmetically. (Looks nice from twenty feet away). But its mechanical condition as I received it was another story. I had to replace all suspension and steering bushings, spindle pins, wheel bearings, and other worn out parts. I had to rebuild the NH and the rear axle, and install new rear brake shoes. But all I've ever done to the engine was replace a leaking head gasket, and all I've ever done to the transmission is adjust the low pedal. This means I have no first hand knowledge of what the condition of the inside of the power plant is. The reason I'm bringing this up is that on my drive to the fairgrounds today, a round trip of about thirty miles, the vibration made me really uncomfortable. I'm not talking physical discomfort here, but mental. I realize this isn't a Pierce or a Packard, and isn't expected to be as smooth-running as those cars, but rolling down the highway at 30 mph it produces a high frequency vibration like a massage chair, and I don't like that. The car starts easily by starter or by hand, and seems to run normally otherwise, but the vibration bothers me. I'd really like to go to McPherson and on other tours, but I don't much care for the prospect of a major engine or transmission failure out in the sticks a hundred miles from home. I'm thinking it would be wise to stay home until I can get into the guts of this thing and make sure everything is up to snuff. I don't know that I'm asking a specific question here, other than to invite comments and experiences.
A bad Ujoint will be speed dependent, and lower freq vib. I would be looking at the mains and the magnets.
rdr
The vibration could also be caused by the wheels being out of balance.
Stephen
Is there anyone in your area familiar with Model T's. Someone who could drive your car, or go on a ride with you, and likewise, you go on a rid with him in his T? What you call a vibration could be the normal sound made by a Model T, or it could be a serious balance problem. It is almost impossible to diagnose from a distance.
A few things to check first would be to determing if the compression is even on all cylinders, and whether they are all getting spark. If those are OK, then how about the suspesion. Do you have any noticeable shaking of the wheels? Does the steering wheel shake back and forth while you are driving? If you put your hands to the top of each wheel, one at a time, try to shake it back and forth sideways. Do the spokes or bearings appear to be loose. Have someone follow you as you drive the car and see if the wheels wobble as you go along. You need first to determine whether the vibration is in the suspension, the drivetrain, or the engine. How are your fan blades? All 4 blades should be even and it should spin freely with the belt loosened.
Harder to find problems would be in the balance of the internal engine and transmission parts. Jack up the rear wheels and start the engine. Leave it in high hear and vary the throttle setting. Do you notice the vibration comes on at a certain speed? If so, you have a harmonic balance problem internally and the only way to fix it would be to remove the engine and transmission and balance each part as you go through a complete rebuild.
Norm
Mains or ballcap will be usually felt in the floor boards or as Ricks says a bad ujoint. KB
Steve: I din't think that the car sounded and acted to bad when we went to town that day for lunch. Maybe if I had been driving I might have had a better feeling. As you know they have a different feeling compared to the cars of today.
Have a great week coming up and go out and enjoy the ride
Steve,
I bet it has cast iron pistons. They make a T vibrate pretty bad if you try to go over about 25 MPH. You can check with a small magnet through one of the spark plug holes.
It's been over three years since I had the head off, but I think I remember aluminum pistons. I'll check it out. Rule out anything having to do with u-joint, steering, wheels, or suspension. This is a high frequency vibration, and occurs with the car sitting still in neutral and the engine running at cruising speed. Given the generally poor state of other mechanical stuff on this car when I got it, I'll be very surprised if I find everything OK in the engine and transmission.
In the industrial world, quite often, unexpected high frequency vibrations are caused by bearings on the verge of failure, whether they be ball, tapered, bronze bushings or babbit. Which bearings need to be looked at?
Ts can be made to run smooth. Keys are balance and alignment. Plenty of info out there on both. I once owned a car that had a serious vibration when shifting between low and high. I had static balanced the flywheel during the mechancial restoration and the weight of the pistons and rods matched within .1 oz. Culprit was the crankshaft. I found this out only after tearing into the engine two or three times and replacing parts I thought were causing the problem. I finally bit the bullet and brought the flywheel,trans drums, rods and crankshaft to a fellow in Oakland who dynamically balanced them as they would be assembled in the car. The result was very good. The car runs strong and smooth. I became a believer. Did the same with my 10 and it runs smoother than any T I've owned or driven.
I know a lot of folks don't care about having a smooth running car, but vibration bothers me.
Steve,
I don't think you have an imminent mechanical problem. I suspect you are exciting a bracket or sheetmetal somewhere. Power train problems would likely be a low frequency vibration.
How does it feel running down the road at speed?
Can you hear or feel that vibration with everything else going on?
You have other T's in your stable how do they compare?
I carry AAA plus insurance which gives 100 miles of a free tow. I have only used it once on a Model T but many times on our modern vehicles. You might consider this for peace of mind, about $140 a year.
Ted
Steve, I know it sounds nuts, but have you tried driving with the windshield open a little? My windshield on my 14 Depot Hack buzzes when I hit 35+! I can make you nuts after a while. I have to take it off and refit it this winter. Just a thought to check out. I don't know enough to comment on any other problem and I am always hearing different noises every time I drive mine!!
Yes, you can feel it running down the road at cruising speed. That's where I noticed it. It's also present with the car sitting still with the engine running. I think that rules out the window theory. I haven't got the Fordor running yet for a comparison, but I haven't experienced this problem with the '15 runabout.
It surprises me to hear Royce denigrating iron pistons by saying that they produce significant vibration above 25 mph. First of all, every one of the more than 15 million T's came with iron pistons, they are reliable and effective. Second, my Touring has a '26 stock engine with iron pistons and it runs very smooth between 35 and 40 mph, although above 45 on the flat, it get fairly noisy and buzzy. The engine has had no major rebuild as long as it has been in my family, that's been more than 50 years. The motor may not have ever had a rebuild but even if it did, I don't believe that typical rebuilds of that time (the late 1950's) included the kind of balancing work that is common today.
I'm going to start sounding like Royce and some others by saying that the T engines were solid, smooth runners straight out of the factory. My '16 T runs strong with a low compression high head, stock cam, coils and commutator, no water pump or generator, round tube brass radiator and stock gearing. Maybe it would run better with aluminum pistons, counterbalanced T crank, z-head, stromberg carb, end to end balancing, etc. etc. but none of these things are mandatory. Of course, since most T owners are the tinkering' type, these and other mods are all fair game. Maybe if the car ever does need a major internal repair, then some of those mods might make it into engine, but for now, I'm sticking with bolt-on, easily reversible "upgrades", like rocky mountains, Ruckstell, brake lights and turn signals (for Los Angeles traffic) and such.
I figure, to each their own.
Eric
PS. Steve, it does sound like something is not right inside. Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure is go in and look.
Both of my T's have iron pistons. They don't vibrate bad above 25 MPH at all. Steve just rode with me the other day in the coupe, we were probably cruising at about 30 to 35 MPH most of the time. I think he would have noticed if it had a high freq vibration. I sure didn't. Dave
How 'bout the '15 roadster and the Fordor, Steve?
They can't be all that far from reliable touring? (well, as reliable a 90 year old used car can be expected to be..)
Don't know about the Fordor. The head is still off waiting for me to seat the valves. From what the seller told me, it may be fine after that, but it was really his late uncle's car, so who knows? The '15 is down until I get the new rings installed and fix the magneto. All three cars will have to wait on my late summer and fall project: rebuilding the roof on the house. After that, maybe I can have at least one car ready for touring by spring.
I figure that a vehicle with 30 x 3.5 tires that have about 4 inch side walls containing 55 psi and wagon springs let you know about every pebble and grasshopper you run over on the road.
If I encounter something bigger it feels like I ran over the Grand Canyon.
If the road crew did not make the surface smooth, my brains get scrambled.
(Not that it would make a difference in how I think! )
Steve,
You might check the fan pulleys and shaft. I bushed the fan hub, installed a new shaft and have a new pulley on the crank of the '14. I had all kinds of vibration at 30 and that got rid of some of it for me.
The cast iron pistons went when Ross Lilleker overhauled the engine. I would do that when it came time to pull the engine.
Ken in Texas
I lost oil twice on 36 hp VW engines, thanks to poor sealing valve covers. They soon developed a high frequency vibration, which climaxed with broken crankshafts.
Check the mains.
rdr
Steve,
Try throwing off the fan belt and running it for a test. Off balance fans make a heck of a lot of vibration.
Also, check to see if you have the two wood blocks and side bolts in your frame rails, on either side of the motor mounts. The lack of those can also allow a lot of vibration. (some will say "no" on that point but I've seen it demonstrated)
I didn't have time to do all the suggested checks, but I took the car to town today, a round trip of about eight miles. When I got home the radiator was boiling! Steam shooting out of the overflow tube. This car is going to park until I have time to dig into it and see what's going on.
I have a philosophy that i will drive it until something breaks or is obvious then i know what to fix.
Rick
Rick G,
I thought I was the only one?
As for cast iron pistons. Most of the Ts I have owned and driven had cast iron pistons. I routinely them about 45 to 50 mph without overdrive and 60+ with overdrive. I do my own static balancing.
Steve J,
It may seem a simplistic question, but have you checked to know that the connecting rods all match? There are the common light weight rods, and the heavy weight rods nobody seems to want as well as a few other odd variations. The heavy rods do not look that different when in an engine. Just about a month ago, I took apart my fourth T engine with mismatched rods in it. And I only do them for myself, I am not a rebuilder. So it must have been a common mistake.
Dive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Nope, haven't looked inside yet. That's something I'll check.
Steve, Wish I was there to help. I'm sure that we could patch up one of those T's in a weekend. Do you have any T friends in local area? Have a T work party! I have seen your other posts and it seems to me you know your way around a T, don't quit on this idea at least not till 2am before the tour day. I'm with Ted I vote for the AAA roadside insurance coverage. You can do it.
Yeah, but... Now that we're having cool weather with highs in the low nineties, I need to get cracking on this roof. I want it done before the good weather goes south. If I can get the roof done and a T in shape within the next month, great. But first things first. I don't want to go through another leaky winter.
I find the vibrations to be very helpful for estimating my speed but seriously, I have 2 T's that were balanced from one end to the other and 4 that were not. I noticed that the 4 that were not balanced experienced differing amounts of vibration at different time. One day they run well with little or no vibration and the next time the vibration is very noticeable. The only explanation I can think of is that the transmission is causing this as a result of the way that everything lines up. Sometimes everything lines up in a way that is fairly well balanced and other times things line up in a way that has them totally out of balance or somewhere in between. All I am saying is that you may have experienced one of those times when the vibration is at it's worst. I would drive it a bit more and see if the vibration doesn't change for the better.
Steve J,
Are you familiar with the '20s comedy routine "The Arkansas Traveler"? It has long been one of my favorites. When you mention fixing the roof, I start listening to it in my head (I can't find the dubbed copy of the original recording I have. I can't even find the original 78).
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Steve, your roof problem reminds me of Ma and Pa Kettle. Ma wanted Pa to fix the roof, and Pa said it was raining, and he couldn't fix it. When it stopped raining, Ma wanted Pa to go fix it. Pa said that it didn't need fixin' because it wasn't raining. Or something like that. Just one of my many favorite things about Ma and Pa Kettle. Dave
Dave,
leave Steve alone; the blue cover on the roof is as much Steve as is his overalls with the tape measure.
Have a look on google earth, bring up the whole of the US and look for the blue patch. :-)
The Arkansas Traveler goes back to the nineteenth century as a popular fiddle tune often used in vaudeville routines. When Arkansas City was established here in 1870, its first newspaper (still publishing today) was named The Traveler. The vaudeville routine involved a lost traveler, usually a city feller, and his conversation with a wise cracking bumpkin fiddling on his front porch. Traveler: "I say, my good man, where does this road go?" Fiddler: "I been here all my life, an' I ain't never seen it go nowhere." The routine often ended with the traveler unpacking his own fiddle and the two playing the tune as a duet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMVHmBvj6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaQBAPeGHts&feature=related