- 1925 T with 1926 engine
- 12 Volt electrical system ( also starter is 12 Volt)
- Engine has some more compression because of the Z-head
Hi,
can anybody give me a tipp: The electrical start don’t start my T anymore:
In the last few weeks it was always worse and worse. Some weeks ago, the starter turned very fast, then it always sounded weaker and turned slower and now only the switch clicks.
Now I dismounted the bendix cover. It runs freely. I removed the outer screw on the bendix, then the starter turns freely (of course without the bendix). Then I installed the screw on the bendix correctly. When I turn the gear out and try to start it again, then it runs in and turns only maybe half a second, then it stops. When I try again, it only clicks.
Of course, I should check the battery:
First test: the Voltage: it shows 13.5Volts.
Then I dismounted the poles from the battery and connected the poles with charging cables to the battery of my new car. The starter acts exactly the same.
Then I started my new car and my brother runs it up to some higher RPMs. The starter of my T still acts the same.
So what do you think, what can I test now ?
Thanks for help.
Willi
starter is 12 volt? is it model t insides or the modern ac delco style one?
Hi,
yes, I wrote it: also the starter is a new 12Volt starter I think from MAC's, but I don't know the answer to the second question. I will try to find it out.
Willi
Hi,
now I have found it:
T5099A12 Model T Ford Starter Motor - New - 12 Volt - Modern Delco-Remy Starter
I bought 2 12 volt starters and had to send them back 3 times at my expense zero miles on them. I took them to a local guy and he could not belive the trash that had not been cleaned out of them.
Had another one of them short out last week, same story full of glass beads broken brush spring, old brushes and bad bushing this is what they call rebuilt. On the first one miss aligned
mounting holes,there answer when I called them,take a file to it or,
was, donot like it send it back. They have a good idea but do sloppy work and there attitude is even worse. I just finished building 2 cars with 12 volt systems and they think you can just change them at no expense. Take them to a local guy and have them looked at and serviced.
What was the battery voltage while cranking?
Since you connected the jumpers to your battery, we can only assume you have cleaned all of the connections in the battery circuit right? By jumping at the battery, you still have all of the old connections still in the circuit. Check your voltage at the starter while cranking. If you are getting good voltage there, then clean your ground connections from starter to the battery or run a ground cable from starter to battery to test.
I would say check the voltage at the post of the starter motor with respect to ground while somebody steps on the starter switch and watch the voltage. Make sure to put the meter lead on the post itself, not the battery lug connected to it. After all, that could be a bad connection right there!
If the voltage is substantially less than what you measured at the battery, then there is a good chance that you have a bad connection somewhere along the cables coming from the battery, and fixing it would be a matter of just fixing the bad connection. If the voltage drops a little, but not more than a few volts, then chances are that the starter itself is bad.
If you do see a large voltage drop, you can test the starter by using your jumper cables to go straight from the battery to the starter. Make sure you use both the positive and negative cables. We don't want to rule out a possibly bad ground connection either! If the starter works fine, then you know for certain that there is a bad connection somewhere.
Let me know what you find. Electrical stuff is my speciality!
Check the system components as described above but frankly, my experience (what I've heard/read here)with big 3 rebuilt carbs tells me you'll be pulling it apart to repair what wasn't done.
Sounds like you have a bad ground between the starter and the block. Try a good ground wire between the bat neg. and the starter case. I,ve had that happen. If that works then check bolts for good clean contact (starter to block.) They can get greasy or come loose.
Bob
There have been issues with the repro Bendix spring bolts having too tall a head and rubbing on the cover and binding the drive. See this post.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/249113.html
I have 2 12volt Delco starters by Larry Becker and they have been trouble free. - John
Hi,
thanks for help. I found it out now:
It's the starter. I changed everything to 12 Volt about have a year ago and bought this starter from MAC's.
The starter didn't automatically turn also after disassembling and direct connection to the battery. So I opened it. It looks very bad. There is a lot of dirt and dust inside.
I dont know, if all of the distributors sell the same bad quality starter ?
Which one works ?
Willi
The good ones come from Larry Becker, Antique Auto Electric 419-668-5986 or 419-663-5122. He used to advertise in the Vintage Ford Magazine but have not seen his ad in the last couple of issues.
i would just go back to 6 volt, the originals work great and are built like a tank. whats the advantage to 12v anyway?
Willi if you have the smarts to take it apart you probably can use the same talents to repair it. (if it's out of warranty and broken I have nothing to lose). Post some pics of the case insides & the shaft (commutator). It's quite possible someone here can help.
I don't go back to 6 Volts. All parts are 12 Volt.
I should have warranty, because I bought the starter about 7 month ago, but this is always a special story, because the I would have to send it back. Here from switzerland to the USA it costs to much to send a broken part back, and they have to pay also at the customs for this. Then they have to send the new one, and I once again has to pay freight + taxes + customs taxes. But I will ask MAC's what they can offer.
I will try to attach some fotos. But maybe I have to clean it first to make better fotos.
Question:
Is this the normal way, when there is so much dirt in there ?
Willi
The amount of wear on the commutator shouldn't have happened in a hundred years and the shaft at that end is worn worse than any I ever saw at the shop.
We fixed LOTS of tractor starters over the years but that's the worst I have ever seen.
Willi, that is disgusting! The commutator is worn beyond belief, as is the end of the shaft. Neither has had any attention in a rebuild, if that's what they tell you. It looks like it has been full of blasting medium and that has gone right through the works.
Unfortunately, if they are not willing to co-operate with a remedy there is not a lot you can do from overseas. However, there is much that can be done to get the message out about such shoddy work/lack of work.
I feel for the vendors if this is the work of a sub-contractor who does not have a profile to protect.
Just my two bobs worth.
Allan from down under.
There is definately something terribly wrong, if the oil from the engine is sealed off at the shaft as it should be then the starter motor should be clean and dry. If oil could get into the starter it would be just drowned in oil so where is the other rubbish coming from? Is the engine/transmission clean inside. If it is it looks like you were given a lousy starter.
It looks like the black grit is exactly that, similar to silicon carbide sandblasting grit.
There is nothing normally in there to produce such a mess and the starter is getting chewed away by the grit.
You are in a situation that us Aussies find our selves in, so far from suppliers that the economics make it impossible to get a fair service because of the distance. Can you find any other old car owners who may have found a person able to repair electrical components near you or closer in surrounding countries?
One piece of advice I always give new restorers is-
Always check any part or service yourself before you put it on your car, never assume anything is right. If you have double checked you will avoid a lot of grief, better to have it right before you venture out on the road. Some peoples idea of fixed is far short of correct and serviceable.
Thanks for your comments.
I will now wait for the answer of Mac's. Maybe they can deliver a better product.
When they can only deliver the same product, then for me it's not worth to pay all our taxes, even if if the send it for free.
So I will wait.
There is only one person that makes a new front for 12 volt starters like the one in the picture. I bought 2 starters that looked just like the pictures posted. That is the type of work that comes from them. That grit is the bead blasting beads. Cut your losses and take it to a
local shop and see if they can salvage it.
That shaft is toast. Commutator and bearing surface are gone. You'll need one plus the rear bushing and a brush set at least. There doesn't look like any poleing or rubbing of the shaft windings against the pole pieces is visible so the case might clean up OK and be useable. Unfortunately this is the common condition of "re-built" starters & carbs from the big boys. I've heard of carbs loaded with "sand" too.
Their cleaned externally, painted and returned for sale. Been going on for a long time.
Will
There is no excuse for the condition of your starting motor.
I see no evidence of a oil seal and believe the damage is a result of an oil filled starter case mixed with glass beads that simply ground the internal parts till they failed.
Ron the Coilman