Head removal without a guillotine

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Head removal without a guillotine
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 05:12 pm:

I used this picture on the "What have you done" thread, but I'll put it here too, along with the rest of the job.


Low compression on #3 prompted me to pull the head and take a look at the valves. I found a couple of surprises.




Lots of carbon on top of the pistons, and a nice pile of cooling system crud on top of the gasket.


The gasket looks to me like it was installed dry, with no copper goo or other sealant.


Apparently exhaust/oil was leaking under the gasket from #4 into the water passage.


Whatever this is, it was sticking out from under the intake valve on #3. Suppose that could be the source of low compression on that cylinder?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 05:34 pm:

Looks like the original two piece valves has been replaced - that's good :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:09 pm:

I can't say what that "stuff" is but I see how any "gradoo" getting between a valve and seat would give poor compression. Would be great if all it needs is a good cleaning/flushing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:12 pm:

Oh, and a new head gasket with copper seal spray.

Then again, I start thinking about what a great time it would be to replace the valve springs, check the guide wear, regrind the valves, regap the valves, mill the head, etc....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

How about using air pressure at the ports to check the valves for leakage. It'll tell you how far you need to go. Check the head for "flatness too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 07:14 pm:

You keep fixin' all these nattering little problems Steve and yer gonna wake up someday and have nothing to do! That'll learn ya !!

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 07:46 pm:

That's when you buy another T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 08:03 pm:

Nah,

Steve will always have his roof to fix ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

Considering how many projects await and how long some of them have waited, I think I have enough to keep me busy well past 100.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 10:09 pm:

But it is always a pleasure to read your posts and see your pictures. You have a lot to share with all of us, and we thank you for that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 10:22 pm:

Someone has been driving the car with the mixture too rich. You need to at least lap the valves and scrape the carbon.

Here's a receipt when my 1917 torpedo needed a new valve in 1921. It had less than 1500 miles on the speedometer then. Bad driving habits can cause problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

Don't start goin' nuts. Clean up the block & pistons and check the valves for leakage by applying air pressure to the open ports with the cylinder on the compression stroke. You could be looking at a simple carbon clean-up. Actually quite normal. Do check the head for "flatness". And don't fail to clean out the head bolt holes & blow them out with air pressure. Whatever you sucked up came through the intake system. Just bad luck it stopped where it did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:32 pm:

This is the car I brought home in March which ran for about twenty seconds before the fiber timing gear did its thing. I'm just now getting around to reassembly. The late former owner wrote that the engine was rebuilt about 35 years ago, so I imagine the car has had lots of rich driving to build up that nice thick coat of carbon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:08 pm:

My first T, a '27 Tudor. I was pretty shy on how to run one. 2nd. drive and it starts to run bad. Limped home and it quit in the garage. Checked EVERYTHING. (I thought). Finally pulled the plugs. Running rich I'd coated the plugs so badly with soot it wouldn't start. I don't think it'll take too long to build carbon if you don't know T oddities. I'm not sure if the blown gear and rich running are related. I don't think they are as I've heard/read of the nylon gears going by themselves. I don't know how far you plan to go with this but the air pressure check I posted can tell you if valve grinding is actually necessary. It's just possible the engine was re-built as you were told and rich running caused the carbon. The gear? They go it seems. Sucking something into the carb? That happens too. While it is a run of bad luck it's nothing unusual either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 01:54 pm:

Yes, they do go. The fiber timing gears were supposed to make cars quieter, and they do. In fact, after this happened the car became absolutely silent. I have an iron gear in there now.


When the timing marks are seven teeth off it can slow you down considerably.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

Wow, Steve ... is is that a mix of old oil and steel filings in there??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

"The late former owner wrote that the engine was rebuilt about 35 years ago," Slow mail? How did he know you bought the car? Did you write him back?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 03:25 pm:

Dennis: Nope, not steel. Chewed up fiber gear remains. I guess the fiber timing gear in the engine is sort of like the babbitt thrust washer in the rear axle, but less dangerous.

John: The car belonged to the late Gene Salzman, who wrote some notes that came with the car when I bought it from his nephew. Gene probably doesn't know I bought it, unless he's looking down on all of us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 08:47 pm:

Steve,
I hope he is... and if so, he no doubt has a big grin on his face. The Model T enthusiast extraordinaire Steve Jelf giving his old car the TLC it deserves!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 10:55 am:

I spent Saturday cleaning and checking.


Some of the valve pins were bent so I had to cut them off with a Dremel wheel and punch them out.


I cleaned all the valves...


...and removed carbon from the pistons and block.


I vacuumed loose scale out of the water passages...


...and wire brushed carbon off the head.

Measuring things I found all cylinders 3.80" with less than .0005" wear, and the most taper I could find anywhere was .0005". So far so good. Next: seating the valves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 11:59 pm:

Good stuff Steve, thanks for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 12:01 am:

Good stuff Steve, thanks for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 07:44 am:

Steve run a ball hone in those cylinders. Lay the block on it's side with the crank end a bit high. Douse the hone with a soap and water blend. clean up each cylinder with the hone. Be sure the piston is at the bottom of its stroke. You will gain oil control and the rings will seat in nicely. The resulting hatch marks should be an X pattern. We do this on Outboards and small engines all the time. Use WD40 or similar spray oil to rinse and clean the bore after honing!

hone


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