Frightening discovery

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Frightening discovery
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sam "POPS" Humphries on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:13 pm:

I have been posting the progress of my wheel project for several weeks. Yesterday I got to the left rear and found serious issues. Recently a Model A friend was following me and told me that the left rear was wobbling. This I did not know.

I knew I had problems with the left front and have corrected the problem.

What I found was disturbing to say the least. With the wheel off the ground I found considerable movement in the spokes at the hub. After finally getting the hub loose and the wheel off the T I found that the drum and linings were covered in grease. I also discovered that this wheel had already been shimmed at the felloe and rim.

It is a wonder that this wheel did not fail in a dramatic fashion. What I found:

1. The hub bolts were only 2” and were not very tight.
2. As the photos show the spokes did not rest against the hub.
3. Aluminum rivets were used in all but the area where the felloes meet.
4. Most of the hub bolts showed wear at the end of the threads.

I feel very fortunate that we did not have a serious accident driving our T.

Needless to say I am looking for another wheel and if that falls through I am having this wheel rebuilt.

Someone upstairs has been watching over us.

THANK AND SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
lr 1lr 2lr 3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:15 pm:

AAAUUUUGGGGG!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:27 pm:

Did the spokes shrink with age I wonder? They look shot in any case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

WOW....So good you found it first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

I stand to be corrected but,
the way I see it, the spokes need to be tight to each other in the wedge rather than the ends of the spokes being tight to the hub. The spokes are held tight to the hub by the bolts clamping the two plates to the faces of the spokes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick, Sandy Creek, NY on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 08:38 pm:

Gavin that sounds logical to me. Doesn't seem possible to have it fit tight on both the hub and wedges. Would have to be pretty precise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:32 pm:

Supporting the troops here and making damned sure the Orting Soldiers Home gets all the support I can give to those vets. They are a lonely group of men and women.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

The spokes need to be tight to each other in the wedge, AND the ends of the spokes need to be tight to the hub. The hub needs to be a press fit into the spokes.

If that were my wheel, I'd be re-spoking it. There is no way I would try to fix it.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Gavin,

They wooden parts should be tight at all contact areas. I.e. the spoke tennon should be tight against the felloe, they should be tight against each other where they meet near the hub, they should be tight against the round center of the hub [that is why you should not be able to just remove the hub bolts and slip the stock Ford wheel on and off the hub (there were accessory wheels that did that -- but I am not quite sure how)] and the flanges should be tight against the spokes.

They are "pretty precise" and in the case of the wooden felloe wheels the rim is often heated and shrunk onto the wheel to make everything tight.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 09:56 pm:

You are one lucky fellow. I would recommend that you check all the wheels on your T and rebuild any which are not tight. When the spokes are loose at the hub, the bolts will be the only thing holding the hub to the spokes and as you drive the spokes will move up and down as the wheel turns rapidly it will wear the wood and the whole wheel becomes loose. If everything else is tight and the wedge shape are tight and only the hub is loose, you can tighten it up by driving wedges between the hub and the ends of the spokes. be sure and do it in such a way that the radius is the same all the way around. Measure from the center of the hub to the rim and wedge it evenly all around. Then put the bolts in and tighten them and peen the ends so that they won't loosen up. If other parts of the wheel are also loose as it looks in your picture and your description indicates, you need new spokes. If you have wood felloes, it would be best to see a wheel wright to do it correctly. I know it will cost you a big sum, but what's your life and the lives of your passengers worth?
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

The Ford drawing for T-3421 B (steel felloe spoke) shows the spokes are slightly long so they stick into the area where the hub will be. The drawing specifies the final shaping of the big end of the spokes is done after the spokes are assembled into a wheel. That way, the sides of the spokes are firmly against each other and the hub is a press fit after the spokes are machined as indicated in the drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 10:39 pm:

Gents,

Thank you for correcting me. It is something that I have pondered in the past and came up with my own conclusion (above).
The response shows one of the neat things about this forum; post something wrong and there any number of more learned people that will correct you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 10:42 pm:

I would forget about finding another wheel and send the one you already have out to be rebuilt so that you do not have to mess with this wheel again.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

You can respoke your own wheels. There's lots of info on the subject.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/298628.html?1344097972

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZ7WrfHdf8&list=UUFVx528ORtpDgCPJXbFCA6w&index=3 &feature=plcp

The video was my first time using the press. I'd change two things. Use just the cardboard collar (held in place with a little tape) and eliminate the paper cylinder, and install the first spokes on opposite sides so the felloe doesn't have to be fastened in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:31 pm:

Steve, Sam's car is a 16 so it has wood felloe wheels which need to be sent out to be rebuilt.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 24, 2012 - 11:33 pm:

I sit corrected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 12:30 am:

Yep, that's been my experience too. They need to be up tight to the hub, as stated. Also, I put new spokes in and they were still loose on the hubs. My hubs showed a lot of wear/scaring, not sure from what exactly. Maybe just rust damage, also my bearing races would just fall out. I found better hubs, then put the new spokes in - it is tight now!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 02:44 pm:

Rebuild the wheel. If any of the others are even a little shaky, do them too. So it costs a grand. Not chump change, I know, but it's peanuts compared to the cost of:

*a hospital stay
*repairing your car after a bad accident
*a lawsuit (or two)
*repairing someone else's car
*the pain of knowing that your actions hurt someone else
*bad publicity for all of us
*everlasting regret after any of these happen, knowing you could have prevented it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sam "POPS" Humphries on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 06:33 pm:

With the hub bolts being only 2" not the required 2 1/8" it appears that the wheel wobble found the end of the spoke moving against the hub causing the excessive wear. The 2" bolts did not have sufficient debth to allow them to be peened to prevent them from becoming loose. It is apparent that this has been going on for sometime.

I was talking to the previous owner about my find. He was not aware of the wobble. There are only 2 streets in his subdivision and that is the only place that he drove the car. I feel confident that he did not know of the dangerous condition.

Great example of not using the correct part to make repairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 02:32 am:

Normally wood shrinks across the grain. Changing size in diameter but not length. So why are the spokes in the wheel pictured so short? If they can't shrink length ways they should be solid between the fellows and the hubs. Are the spokes used in Model T wheels only air dried? Or are they kiln dried? Were the lengths different because they're wearing into the felloes? Regardless I figure I'd rebuild those wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

Sam,

Those also appear to be common, "hardware store" carriage bolts as well. Get the more expensive "correct" bolts sold by the suppliers and made by RV Anderson. They are many times stronger and even look correct.


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