Clicking and popping under my feet

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Clicking and popping under my feet
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 04:36 pm:

Hey guys,
Im done with the rear axle rebuild and testing today. Axle seems fine but Ive got clicking and popping in the tranny area when going downhill and sometimes in reverse. Low gear is just fine, it powers up the hill no problem. Could my bands be too tight? Reverse at first is a little chunky then smoothes. It does this only some of the time. When I engage the pedal it starts but then smoothes out. Going downhill though lots of hesitation. We checked the triple gears by rotating the motor by hand. Couldnt find any siezed gears, but I suppose I could have a stuck bushing. Any advice guys, the bands were next on the list but the drive fine for now. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 05:47 pm:

Brandon, if I wasn't working my long stretch I could come over to see first hand. Stuff like that is best to have a T person see and hear it to sort the normal from not normal sounds/vibrations. It is not as intuitive as it may appear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 05:52 pm:

Erich anytime you want to see it just give me a shout. Email me at bfrencch86@gmail.com. Id appreciate it, and you're right you have to hear it. Anyone else in the portland area interested in hearing it post. Im sitting by it right now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 05:54 pm:

This may be way off base, but sounds travel. Depending on the type of click, what sounds like clicking from the transmission could actually be a front wheel bearing going to pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

HEy steve, It makes the driveline and rear end to jump, its for sure drive related. WHen I first engage is when its the worst. I experimented with taking off at different rpm's and got the same result. I really appreciate all the feedback you have given me in the past and future im sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 06:42 pm:

Hey Erich I put a extra "C" in my email.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 06:45 pm:

Sounds like the ring gear / pinion gear relationship is suspect. Going down hill the ring gear is skipping on the pinion. Probably not enough depth on the pinion? Just guessing of course.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 06:56 pm:

Hey Royce, I just rebuilt the rear axle and driveline a few days ago. We had a great mesh. New ring and pinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 07:06 pm:

Brandon,

The triple gears are stationary when you are going down hill in high. The transmission is in fact not doing anything in that scenario. The force on the pinion gear when going down hill is the same side that has force against it when you are in reverse.

The fact that you just rebuilt the rear end makes me more suspicious of the rear end, not less. Transmission noises are typically loud whining noises, rear end noises are popping and banging noises that sound like they are coming from the transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 10:37 pm:

You say the clicking happens when you go downhill. Do what I suggest only on a hill that's not too steep or a short hill where it's safe to do so. At a slow speed while going downhill if it jerks and pops, try putting it into neutral. Does the jumping or popping stop? Sometimes the jumping and popping is in the engine where unburnt fuel goes into the exhaust system and burns after the exhaust valve is open. Or the fuel system could cause it to run rough with the throttle closed and running on compression. There would be too little fuel mixture so it is running lean going downhill.

When you coast, try putting the brake on for just a short time. Does it click or pop when you put on the brake? If it does, your problem is behind the brake drum. It could be the driven plate, the square spline or universal joint. Or it could be in the differential. Don't do this coast very long or at a high speed, because of the load on the brake. I have one that has some play in it and it will be a bit rough as I slow down on compression, but smooths out when I apply the brake. I have traced it to the square spline at the tail of the transmission and U joint. It has been doing that for years and so far no problem. I do have Rocky mountain brakes.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 10:57 pm:

I am wondering if Steve J could be on to something? A front wheel bearing could travel back through the wishbone and if binding could cause the back of the engine to jump a bit.
But others are right. One does really need to experience the noise and vibration first hand to really have a better feel for it. Might be worth a quick jack and check though.
Another thought, on the same line. Are the spindles, and therefore threaded wheel bearings on the proper sides? Might also be worth a quick check. Always remember. The usual forward direction of the wheel should try to run the bearing OFF the spindle TOWARD the lock nut and washer. It should never try to tighten the bearing toward the wheel because if at any time, for any reason, vibration should shake the bearing loose from the lock nut and washer, it will try to tighten itself until the wheel pops off. It happened to a local club member a couple years ago.
This (spindle and bearings on wrong side) is probably not your current issue. It probably would have already broken your spindle if it was. I just figured this was a good place to put out this reminder. I would recommend checking the wheel bearings though.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Saturday, August 25, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

What about the pin in the u-joint?
Did you get it staked well? Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 12:12 am:

ThAnks for all the feedback guys. In high gear the motor and tranny drive very smooth. Its only on initial engagement of the reverse and brake pedal. It went up a decently steep hill with 3 of us inside, around 600 lbs. Slow going up and no popping.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 10:09 am:

Check for loose ball cap, lift the floorboards and pull back on the emergency brake lever, watch for any movement of the torque tube ball within the cap on the 4th main/hogshead.

Looseness there can cause the jerk or 'pop' from the driveline.

Fix with circular shim(s) around the ball joint, then refit the ball cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 11:30 am:

Reading over your original post again, I think your problem is in the ring and pinion mesh. When you go in reverse or when you go down hill you are running against the back of the teeth, but when you are going in low, high or uphill, you are running on the front side of the teeth. The mesh is usually set using the front side of the gear teeth so it is smooth when going forward. When you go downhill you are running on compression using the back side of the teeth.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

Keep it coming guys Im liking all the ideas. Ill check the torque ball but I just put it on. I imagine its ok nut ill give it a look. HEy Norm, when setting the mesh the front teeth of the pinion meshed well with plenty of clearance for the ring gear bolts. If the pinion was any further back i would worry about it wearing into the case if a bearing goes. Could it be that I need more shims in the thrust plate assembly?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, August 27, 2012 - 10:02 am:

Do you have the book on the rear axle or Ruckstell axle issued by the club? It gives a step by step instruction on setting up the gears. It's very difficult to try to diagnose a problem over a computer. So I have only given possible causes. Without driving the car, hearing the noises, and or tearing it apart to visually see what's going on, anything I offer is only a guess. While the whole thing is apart, it is good to check the mesh with Prussian blue to see that the teeth are in mesh evenly. Not just one corner of the tooth but a good pattern and centered. After everything in the axle is bolted up, you should be able to turn the driveshaft in either direction and it should feel smooth. The actual clearances given in the book are for new gears. Sometimes used gears will mesh better with greater clearances because of wear.

It would be better to find someone knowledgeable with Model T's in your area to listen to it and help you find the solution. It could be nothing, or a serious probblem.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, August 29, 2012 - 11:27 pm:

Sorry to leave the thread hanging. I got really busy with non T related stuff unfortunately. Norm, I dont have the clubs rear axle book, but I do have the one Chaffin wrote. It did what I needed but I need to get more literature. Im still stumped as of now. We hand rolled the motor and tried to examine the triple gears. As far as we could tell the werent seized. I found a cheap set of triples in good shape. Im now waiting until I have someone come drive it and hear it.Erich If you are still interested in hearing it shoot me a message


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 10:53 am:

I think the book you have is the one I referred to. Follow it to the "T" and your rear axle should be just fine.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 11:00 am:

Yes, Glen wrote the MTFCA book. I agree with Norm about the book, but read the penultimate paragraph here: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 11:42 am:

If you get popping when you push the brake pedal the triple gears are not involved. You are hearing the pinion gear hopping teeth on the ring gear due to misalignment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 12:23 pm:

I would like to hear the noise. There are so MANY things that can cause noise, A bad U Joint can cause noise, ring gears, and many other things. The pop sound can also be caused by too rich unburned gas. Its foolish to try and guess without hearing the noise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 12:57 pm:

If the noise was not there before you rebuilt the rear axle, and now after rebuilding the rear axle the noise is there, then somewhere in the rebuild reassembly process something got screwed up, most likely in the rear axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

It did this before I rebuilt the rear axle. I thought that was my problem, so we pulled it apart and found a missing tooth on the pinion and the ring had serated teeth from the wear. Babbits were in little pieces of gravel in the bottom. Funny thing is it drove fine. When my great grandpa and grandpa bought the car 15 years ago he bought it restored. They never touched it, it drove fine when we lived in the flats in Texas. My driveway and road are steep, as soon as i drove off the garage slab it started jumping, thats when I tore it apart. Once im on level ground it drives great, as well as go up and down other steep hills in the neighborhood. Just my road is the problem or when taking off under a load up hill, like at a stop sign. Im gonna make a video this weekend so you boys can see and hear for yourself, Thanks again for all the feedback.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 06:26 am:

Here's the repair shop for your problem :-)

price list


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 09:04 pm:

Thought this was good


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 10:00 pm:

Heres some videos of my problems. I hated to do it but I need some ideas. Thanks for taking the time.

video 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EgVXi1uOdQ&feature=BFa&list=HL1346637535

Video 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTi3VR-LEtM&feature=BFa&list=HL1346637535


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 10:16 pm:

Are you pushing the reverse pedal when that popping sound happens? If so the pinion and ring gear are not meshed properly.

The whining is normal, typical of every Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Williams on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 10:18 pm:

I am stumped, that noise does not sound good at all. The second video does a good job illustrating what you saying.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 10:42 pm:

Royce, Its when Im braking. I can hold the car still but as I let off it starts clicking and shaking my foot. When it does finally stop it stops in place like falling in place. Keep it coming guys I really appreciate it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 10:47 pm:

I think you have a rear axle problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 11:00 pm:

If you get that sound when braking the ring and pinion are not meshed properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 11:51 pm:

Take that axle apart.Something has come loose.I would think if the nut holding the small gear on the drive shaft came loose a little,the little gear would go back to far to get a good mesh.
I would not drive it another inch till I took it apart.You may have allready ruined some parts.If I aint mistaken there is a bushing in the front of the driveshaft houseing that if it is wore out can let the whole assembly drift backwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:02 am:

If your pinion bearing is stock, the bushing Mack mentioned provides the necessary thrust surface to keep the pinion gear in place. On the other hand, if you used the FP kit you may not have got the set screw tight enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:28 am:

I wouldn't drive it that much with that sound. Split that rear axel and check your gear clearance!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:31 am:

I would jack the car up,remove 1 side of the axle houseing ,I think left,and leave the driveshaft and all hooked up.This way you could rotate things and watch what is happening in there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 01:36 am:

THanks Guys. Is there anything besides the rear axle that would cause this problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 03:09 am:

Not sure what the clicking noise is but the whining noise on low and reverse is normal for mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 03:18 am:

That second video is very odd. Very ugly sound for sure. It looks/sounds like you shut off the engine just before the sound?

Is the starter being engaged?

What exactly are your feet doing while the noise is being made?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 03:23 am:

I think Dan is onto something. It sure sounds like the time a buddy forgot to wore the bolts on the ball cap to trans flange, letting the square bit of u-joint back out of its drive socket and make a very similar sound.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:52 am:

Erich, I shut off the motor so the clicking could be heard. The starter is not engaging. Im just letting off the brake a little. It will do that going up and downhill in forward and reverse. Nut Im not engaging anything. I checked the trans tube and its still very tight. Any tips on dropping the driveline without interfering with the rear axle. I want to start small before having to pull the axle, I just spent a year piecing it back together. Thanks Guys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 06:57 pm:

You said you just let off the brake a little. I think I'd repeat that same thing with the transmission inspection cover off and see if the brake band is "jumping around" and making that noise instead of just slipping smoothly like it should. Just a thought,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 09:41 pm:

Don't run the engine with the transmission cover off or you will have oil all over everything including your face and the upholstery!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:04 pm:

Brandon

Sure sounds like rear end problem.

Your video shows your T traveling downhill, it holds with the brake on, but when you let off the brake pedal, and lever up straight, (i.e. neutral) your T won't roll as quietly as it should. There is always some transmission noise on rolling in neutral, but yours is extreme.

Suspect something in the drive line from the flywheel back is amiss, maybe the emergency brake shoes in the drums are hanging up (could be rubbing when in neutral lever position), or ring and pinion, or universal, or then, the transmission could have some planetary gear problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:08 pm:

Norm - You're absolutely right; I sure didn't think that one through! That's about the dumbest suggestion I ever made! But for some reason, something Brandon said makes me wonder if it isn't just a very severe case of "chatter" as bands sometimes do. That's what it sorta' sounded like in the second video and Brandon said he was "just letting off the brake a little." I think it was Ralph Ricks that put a clear plastic cover on the transmission in place of the regular cover, but that was to check to see how much oil splash there was or something. I guess in this case you'd never see the bands anyway due to oil splash under the plastic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:19 pm:

Actually Norm, if the car was standing on a pretty good downhill incline, with the engine NOT running, couldn't you hold the car from rolling forward with the parking brake and brake pedal, have the transmission cover off and release the hand brake while applying the brake pedal, and then gradually release the brake pedal like Brandon did before and check for brake band chatter?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

Well I could roll downhill with the motor off but I dont want to damage anything more than already. Thanks for the tips. I like the idea of taking one side off. Putting it back on with pancake hasslers. Thanks guys. Ill keep you posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 06:15 am:

You don't get band chatter from the brake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 11:12 am:

Here's something you might try. Put the rear wheels on jack stands with the parking brake in the brake position and rotate one rear wheel. Try rotating it in both directions and listen for the noise. The other wheel should turn in the opposite direction. If you get the clicking when you do this, you have a problem with the brake shoes in the rear wheels or in the bearings either internal or external. If it turns smoothly , then put the parking brake lever in the neutral position and let one wheel down and turn the wheel which is still on the jack stand
in both directions. This will turn the driveshaft. There will be a small amount of play between the differential gears but after you turn past the play, the driveshaft should move smoothly. If you notice clicking it would indicate either a problem with the universal joint or the mesh between ring and pinion gears. One other place where it could be clicking would be the tail shaft driven plate in the transmission. Try turning both directions. If that doesn't help you find the problem, put the transmission in high and rotate the wheel back and forth. There could be something in the clutch causing the clicking.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 01:24 pm:

Royce,

"You don't get band chatter from the brake."

Are you kidding? Let me take you for a ride some day! Braking is where band chatter can be the worst.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 01:32 pm:

Brandon,

I'm wondering about the condition of your U-joint. Remove one of the access plugs, located just behind the smaller grease cup, on the front end of your torque tube. This is the plug that allows you to drive out your u-joint pin but it should also give you the ability to peek inside and see your driveshaft turn. With that plug out, and your floorboards removed, sit in the driver's seat and push hard on the brake pedal. At the same time, have someone rock the the car back & forth while you peek inside the plug hole. You're looking for any substantial rotation of the drive shaft while the brake is applied. Such movement will indicate how much free play you have in your u-joint. Ideally, only slight to no movement at all is what you want.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:01 pm:

I don't think he wants to pull that rear again. I don't blame him either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 03:13 am:

My car has brake chatter if i do not let the pedal up alot to get oil on it. Would not hurt to check it for chatter. Sounds like the worst chatter i have heard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 11:51 am:

The forum has more chatter than most anything I know. Quite a bit of it is most useful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mario Goldberg A., Tenerife - Spain on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 01:35 pm:

Snap, Crackle and Pop?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 11:44 pm:

I suspected that chatter might be the problem. regardless Im doing bands soon as I open it up. Thats been on the list for quite some time. Long before the rear axle project. Im gonna get into it in the next few days. Ill keep everyone posted. Thanks for all the advice, wish me luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:00 am:

Well, find the problem before you go changing bands. Even if the bands need changing do a systematic diagnosis before changing other things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:22 am:

DOug I agree absolutely, I want to know what the hells going on first. Then it gets better grip.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 09:17 am:

Pull the rear end. Take it apart again A mistake was made or there is a worn part. likely no amount of talk will fix this problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 09:39 am:

I hate to agree with Mike ever but I have to agree on this. Talking till your blue in the face gets nothing done. Tear it back out and look things over. Oh Ya Morning Mike !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 07:14 pm:

SO guys I put the t on blocks and started looking into it. While it was up I removed the hogshead and discovered the drive drum was cracked, other pitted badly and scored. Could that be my noise. Im still going to open the rear axle to replace pinion bearing. Im gonna check my gear tolerance as well. Any tips on drums? Tools needed, tricks, and advice much appreciated. Can I do all this work without separating it from the motor, just open hogshead?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 07:24 pm:

If the drive drum is cracked, you will have to remove the entire engine from the car to fix that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 07:48 pm:

TAke a look guys, Im bummed about his for sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

Brandon, the crack is not likely the cause of your noise. When driving in high gear, the bands are not engaged. The trans assembly rotates as a whole. When in low gear with the pedal correctly holding the drum from slipping, again no noise. The only time the crack could cause a noise is when the band is slipping as you engage low gear. Once it is engaged, there should be no motion between drum and band.

You will need to pull the motor and trans to replace the drum, and then go looking elsewhere for your noise.

Finding it will be reward enough!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

I see what appears to be a crack in the low drum. You are fortunate to have found it before it shatters and the car comes to a quick stop in some inconvenient place. Now's the time to replace it before you have more damage. If it were my car, I would fix the transmission first and put the engine back and see how it runs. No need to pull the rear axle at this time. It is just as easy to pull the rear axle with the engine in the car as it is with the engine out, so if the transmission fixes your chatter, you won't need to remove anything else.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susanne on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 11:46 am:

Oh man, that sound - way too evenly rhythmic for band chatter. Even with the broken drum illustrated above you have a gear riding over the teeth of another gear. It may well be inside your low drum (you'll see as soon as you take the tranny down) but I would still say your ring is overriding your pinion by the "evenness" and amount of "clack" when the car rolls. (and if it's about 40 clacks per wheel revolution... against the 11 tooth pinion gear... )

If I were up north I'd come by. The good news is, since you've been inside the rear end once, t next time will be a ***lot*** easier.

Thanks for the vid, tho, as it is darned good diagnosis tool...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Monday, September 17, 2012 - 01:34 am:

So guys and gals I removed the motor and trans and have it broken down to the flywheel. I looked at past forums and how bad is the pitting and grooves on the other 2 drums. Can I ride on them or not. Also, what about the bushing in the brake drum sleeve. Can it be replaced or do you need a new one, mine is scored up. No damage to the shaft, all seems well. I also need advice on clutch plates, when to replace them. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

Hey Guys. I started on the rear axle a hour ago. I got the driveline off and so far no damage to the pinion. I had a new pinion bearing going in place of the old one. THat bearing was pretty loose. Im just trying to give info that may explain the sound. Ill keep posting as I go. Im about to split the rear case. In addition to the rear I pulled the motor and found worn drums and one was cracked. The new triple gears I have fit on the pins much better with no slop in any direction. I put the old ones in place and rolled them to find I heard squeaking and ticking, they caught on the flywheel as well. Let me know what you think Im off to splittin the rear and buying some prussian blue


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 09:21 pm:

Axles open now and no damage to the ring gear.When we rotate the drive line we can hear and feel the clicking in the gears inside possibly not the ring and pinion. The mesh looks, feels and sounds great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 09:41 pm:

Those differential gears inside described by the book say they "have a loose fit, and may not show wear but if there is any question replace them". Any advice on those gears.
On another note the old triple gears were worn badly. The bushings in the gears were worn down on the back allowing the gear to ride up against the flywheel. The teeth on the triple gears looked fine at first glance then I looked carefully and the edges on top of the teeth were rounded off and the inner bushing was sloppy. i would like to think that this is it. I would like feedback of other opinions, thanks guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

Did you put a shim between the axles? The only time the spider gears come into play is if you hold one axle still or going around a corner. Is there something loose inside the housing, did you break a tooth on the spider gears or axles? Is there any sign of rubbing that should not be there on the inside?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 10:24 pm:

New Gasket between the axles. Just opened the diff up and the spider gears look good but they do have a little play on the spider shaft. Whats acceptable for the play on the spider gears. I removed the rear axle a year ago for the sound that I still heard after a full rebuild. All new parts in the rear, everything. The ring and pinion mesh was great no wear from all the popping noise.
The triple gears on the other hand have noticeable wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 10:25 pm:

Mark I see your in portland if you"re interested in coming by and seeing it for yourself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 12:20 am:

Brandon wrote:"The new triple gears I have fit on the pins much better with no slop in any direction."
Beware if they actually have no play - many T'ers have had problems with seizing triple gears after rebuilding to Ford specifications (0.002" play) with modern 660 bronze bushings. What's the right amount of play with today's available bushings is a matter of debate, but here is the latest (and I think the best) among many threads discussing this issue: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/308373.html?1346115277
Remember the pins wears egg shaped. I would accept some egg shape before replacing the pins, though, since there's some risk breaking the flywheel in the process. The MTFCA transmission repair video shows a method how to grind the pins round again in place - with some luck new triple gear bushings will fit almost without reaming on ground pins. Timesaver lapping compound is a big help to make things fit when repairing at home if you haven't got all the correct tools and fixtures :-)

Back to the rear end area - you wrote "I had a new pinion bearing going in place of the old one. THat bearing was pretty loose."
That's a bit unclear to me - has the new pinion bearing got loose after you rebuilt the axle?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 01:56 am:

Roger I had a pinion bearing get backed p in shipping so I used the old one temporarily. I knew I had to open the rear axle up again so I used what I had. The Fit of the triple gears is what I would like to think is perfect. Its not stiff in place but no slapping, or up and down side to side movement. I have a album of pics Im posting a link to. Check em out and see if you find anything that concerns you guys.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.438711616166555.90706.100000831608630

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 11:34 am:

New Pics to see in the link above. Im working on the car daily in the evenings, I'll continue to post my progress. Forgive the facebook album, I didnt want to resize pics for the forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susanne on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 10:58 am:

Can't get into your FB album... too bad I'm not further north; I'd love to pop in and get my fingers greasy! You have me wondering if it could be the triple gears... you got me supercurious, now if I can break into FB...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 11:22 am:

Brandon;
Try putting the photos into an account like Photobucket. Might be easier for people to look at.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 11:42 pm:

Sorry guys I forgot to make them public. try this link. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.438711616166555.90706.100000831608630&t ype=3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 09:18 am:

Did you replace the driveshaft bushing? I wonder if the pinion gear is able to move forward and back with the drive shaft? Or possibly you replaced the drive shaft bushing and did not face it off to achieve the proper pinion depth? The sound in your video is just like I hear in a rear end that has disintigrated thrust washers.

Mark isn't talking about the gasket. There should be a fiber disc between the axles in the middle of the differential. I like to use a brass washer instead. The disc is about 3/4" diameter OD.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 09:42 pm:

All new driveline pieces. I have the heavy spool. I did replace the sleeve on the shaft. I also have the fiber washer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 06:35 am:

Did you face off the forward end of the driveshaft bushing? They are too tall as purchased.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 08:04 pm:

Royce, I just understood what you were talking about. The bushing in the drive shaft tube. How long should the bushing be, because I understand how it could give endplay. If its face is worn down, I get it.
It appears that the bushing if fine, but is there a washer or something else in play there? In the tube it looks fine. It looks silver in color. The new one in bronze looks like it has a head with two slots. If the one in her is supposed to look the same I dont have the dead on the bushing.
With the shaft in place it seems nice and tight for clearance around the bushing.
How do you remove that bushing from the inside of the tube. I have the rear axle book but it doesnt say much on how to remove it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 09:24 pm:

Brandon, with the new bushing in place and the joint slid all the way on so it contacts the bushing flange how do the holes for the pin line up?
If you are lucky, as I was, the holes lined up perfectly without doing anything to anything....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

Thanks - Tried your suggestion. The hole for the U-Joint pin is very close, but there is a slight overlap of no more than 1/16th inch. Once the pin is driven and forces the holes to align perfectly, will that gap cause too much end play. Feedback appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 10:20 pm:

For drive shaft bushing removal, see Section 7 on Page 19 of the axle book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 10:31 pm:

Brandon, are you saying with the pin IN there is a 1/16" of endwise play or it gets tight?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Yes with the pin installed it would for sure move that much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 12:08 am:

Got the driveshaft bushing out, take a look . Its worn down about the same distance of play we talked about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 01:40 am:

Looks like an original babbitt bushing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 01:53 am:

That's enough to do it Brandon.
Do you know what the condition of the differential gear is?
I had the SAME problem with my '20 Coupe.......but it was a crunching sound which I SWORE was coming from right under my feet.
My friend had a "junk" T rear end and he replaced the differential gear in mine with his. The pinion, for some ridiculous reason, was perfect.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 02:07 am:

The last ring and pinion were junk, lost a tooth on the pinion. Ive got new stuff now. Steve by the way thanks for the citing the removal procedure. I dont know how many times I flipped right past it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 06:42 am:

That bushing is what controls pinion depth in the original setup. There should be no fore - aft play in the drive shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 09:18 am:

Another reason to use the Regan pinion bearing kit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 09:57 am:

With that kind of play, would you say this could be the source of the noise. THe bushing in the shaft tube, and the old triple gears are my biggest culprits. I say triple's because the old bushings were worn down on the back allowing it to contact the flywheel. Thanks Guys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:03 pm:

SO Im asking the whole forum, is this possibly the problem Ive been chasing for so long? With all the damage I had total Im sure it was accumulative. I would like to think this should solve all my problems in the driveline. If my pinion/ring mesh was right, was this enough to do what you heard in the video? Thanks guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:26 pm:

I have been reading but have stayed out of this but want to confirm something. If you indeed have .062 end play (1/16") then yes that is way too much. End play should be about .004 unless you are using a modern kit pinion bearing in which case the end play is locked at ZERO. If the drive shaft is moving 1/16" forward and backward - THAT IS YOUR NOISE and if it was that bad with the old rear end then it likely was the cause of your tooth breaking off the pinion since it can hit things if allowed to move downward. When driving or braking with load on ring/pinion the ring gear is always trying to spit the pinion gear UP the drive shaft. Thus it might drive OK until there is slack in the drive line which then removes that force and at that time the drive shaft will move downward the 1/16" and that could very well be your problem. You might be able to see where the tips of the pinion are hitting something if you look carefully. Even if you don't see a spot - you need to get a new bushing and NOT face it off so much so that you end up after facing with an end play amount of .004 for the entire drive shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 12:41 am:

Thank you, for all that is mechanical in this world thank you. I wish that was all I had left to do. On to magneto as you well know. New drums/bands, clutches, etc. DO I need the facing tool or is there another method. If not I have a lot of machine shop work to have done. I cant get the drums apart with the pullers I have used so far. I used a 7 to 3 jaw and a large 2 jaw with no success. anyway, thanks for the feedback. I have had so much help from the forum, its incredible. This t would sit longer if not for all the input. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 07:22 am:

I would shoot for zero play and accept .004" as maximum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 10:43 am:

Brandon -- I will loan you my facing tool if you'll pay for the shipping there and back. Chances are you can find one closer to where you are, but mine's available if you need it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

Mike it may very well comedown to that. I really appreciate it. Ill let you know when I have parts on the way, Ill try to have them all here with the tool at the same time so I can have a fast turnaround for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 06:58 am:

When I asked if Brandon faced off the bushing I was assuming that he had installed a new one already.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 10:34 am:

Brandon:

I am confused on one issue. If the drive shaft end play is indeed 1/16" I don't see how you could have set an accurate lash on the ring pinion since the pinion gear would have been free to move in and out. I guess what I am saying is that you need to setup the drive shaft assembly with proper end play before you then use that assembly to set up the pinion/ring gear mesh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

John, I was flying by the seat of my pants when I started the rear axle. I had to give the shaft some convincing just to find the 1/16 of play. Im not saying I did much right the first time. But now I have cooled off of the arbitrary deadline rush and am now just rollin with the punches, and punches I am getting daily. Disassembled the motor last night and found some serious damage to the block where the crank journeys ride on the block, as well as bad piston rod journeys. Sigh... Ill be greasy after work tonight, Ill keep it coming.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 04:47 pm:

Brandon:

A bit of advice which I suspect you are not going to take but hope you will - don't keep taking more and more things apart. Fight your dragons one at a time. There are lots of T's that wind up in pieces because the issues kept getting bigger and bigger and finally the owner couldn't remember what went where. We will try to help you of course but why not completely fix one assembly at a time.

Just my $.02 and wanting to be helpful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 05:11 pm:

Hey John I hear you. That missing 10 dollar bushing has started a fire. In all reality though, had I been able to just do the axle, Im sure something fairly large would have happened. To be honest there isnt much left to take apart. I just dont want to have any big repair for a long while. Another reason I have been in such a whirlwind lately is because I have a really good paying gig right now. Im not sure how long this fountain flows so Ive been sinking funds into the T while its still coming in. The advice given on this forum is absolutely top notch. I will take your advice and stop looking for trouble, it appears it has already found me. I really appreciate it John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 05:25 pm:

John's last comment is probably the best advice in this long thread. Trying to do everything at once is not the way to go. Use the applicable books. Do what they say. Read each one carefully as you work on the component to which it applies. If anything is unclear, read it again and study the parts. If it's still unclear, ask here. Pick one component and fix that before moving on to the next. Don't rush. Fixing things slowly, taking the time to get them right, will take less time than doing them over. It's also likely to be cheaper if you take the time to know for sure what you need for each job before you start buying parts for it. I'd start with the rear axle. Get it right, then move on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 06:12 pm:

Thanks Steve. The rear axle is first. Its the only parts Im ordering right away. I want to finish the axle, get it mounted then start on the tranny drums. I know I have a lot of pulling, pressing,etc to have done at the machine shop. That will give me plenty of time to work on the rest of the trans. The local T club meets on the first thursday every month. I joined this time last year but then found out I needed back surgery. I wasnt a very happy person to be around so I quit going, then went under the knife. Once the 3 month vicodin coma wore off I realized I was a member of a club. Missed the next meeting then got really busy and ended up working late through the last several meetings. What I mean by all this is I need to reconnect with the club, find out what parts are around fellow members, as well as locate tools for the job. They meet next thursday. So I wont be ordering anything besides that damn driveshaft bushing and another quart 600-w until after I have chased local possibilities. Thanks guys, Im grateful for your patience with the young guy on the forum. I ask lots of questions, dumb ones too. Im only learning now how to slow down and do it right. Should have taken Steves advice weeks ago when he said to stop and finish the axle. Now look what Ive done, went and buried myself with old greasy metal things. Rest assured though that I am very organized in my inventory and have a perfectionist neighbor that has been here every step of the way helping me work on the old girl. So dont worry, this car is going back together no matter what. It was my great grandpas,he bought it 15 or so years ago. He never got the chance to enjoy this car. This rebuild is a tribute to him and his son who always wanted to have a T and take it on tours, but didnt get a chance to do it. They couldnt do it before they both got sick. Sorry, I wasnt trying to get sentimental but its is the biggest driving force to get lizzie rolling down the road. Great gramps waited 77 years to have a T and had it less than 6 months before he passed. Its been mine now for 6 years and only this last year have I had the ability to do anything with it. So if I seem in a rush to do everything, its because I feel I have already wasted 5 years of time I could have spent enjoying it with others as they wanted to do. Thanks again fellas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

Its been a long thread. I cant tell you how much I appreciate the knowledge that has been given not only in this thread but all threads posted. Im grateful for the patience and grace while I went mad over my T. Its a long road ahead of picking,pulling,cleaning and machining, but its all worth it. This information is gold. To all those T crazies out there, keep it coming. We are a very eclectic group of folks with a common love for one of the greatest mechanical triumphs this world has see. I can only hope to be as knowledgeable and thorough as some of you elitists out there. But until I get there, I appreciate all the feedback given to my sometimes very simple questions. Thanks again guys, Keep em Rollin


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