Why do I have an extra washer at the end of the low speed adjuster between the adjuster and the spring?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Why do I have an extra washer at the end of the low speed adjuster between the adjuster and the spring?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 01:03 am:

I just finished taking apart my transmission bands that someone put in backwards ( removable ears on wrong side ) and put back a Brake band that someone left out when putting on the A/C or Rocky Mountain brakes. Please look at the before picture here and tell me Why do I have an extra washer at the end of the low speed adjuster between the adjuster and the spring? It is a lock washer fit very tight on the end shaft. Something didn't look correct to me. I still need to put the springs back in the low band adjuster so I am hoping to get some feedback tonight ....thanks !



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 01:36 am:

well its not supposed to be there. My guess is someone needed a little more life out of their low speed band. either that or the end wore out.

you can just screw it out of the hogshead and remove the lock washer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 02:40 am:

I agree. Anybody's guess as to why it was put there, but it should not be there. It may well have been put there to gain a little adjusting room for the band. Sometimes that has to be done to compensate for wear or the drums having been turned undersized. If more adjusting screw length was needed, the washer would need to be a good fit on the screw but large enough to hold comfortably on the band ears. That washer is way too small. Remove it, it will foul up your band adjustment otherwise.
Turning the drums undersized is a bad idea in part because of this issue. Adjusting screws run out of thread, return springs bottom out. As if adjustment isn't enough trouble, then the drum breaks because it has been weakened.
There appears to be a bit of band lining and metal debris inside. Are your linings due for replacement?
Quick-change bands in backwards is generally not a big problem. There is a strength issue that works better one way than the other, but the bands are strong enough both ways it really doesn't matter. (My opinion as well as that of many T people I have talked with.) Actually, if that strength issue is considered fully, two bands would go one way and one the other way.
They generally are put in the way the individual thinks will work best then and later.
Good luck! I hope to see you at one of the runs or tours soon. (I hope to see me there for that matter.)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 02:54 am:

Hi Wayne... don't know if the drum was turned in prior rebuild. I put the filter in the tranny when I changed the oil maybe 100 miles ago.. I went with 10/30 detergent .. hope that wasn't a mistake. Seems to run better and "shift" better with the 10/30 compared to the straight 30 wt non detergent I had in it. .seems to be a bit of stuff on the magnet... I think the lining is good on the bands but really have no way to judge as I dont know how thick new ones are ...got a measurement for me , or a rule of thumb when to change ? It was working good before I took it apart..hope it works good after!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 04:27 am:

The rule of thumb on when to change the linings is usually when they begin to shred. Sometimes when you run out of adjustment.
Too many people get all worked up over oil. The cheapest house brand today is much better than what was available when the cars were new. The viscosity high number makes a difference, and depends on the tightness of the bearings and other engine parts. A really tight engine should run 20wt. 10/20 or 5/20 or straight 20 doesn't make a lot of difference. Whether it is detergent or not doesn't make a lot of difference. Since Ts do not generally have oil filters, there is an argument that the detergent suspends crud and carries it through the bearings. The fact is that a model T is one of the dirtiest running engines ever built because of the transmission and magneto. They run crud through the bearings a lot unless you change the oil a lot, and you should.
A badly worn out engine should run 50wt. I knew someone that ran 90wt gear oil in an engine. It knocked too much with 50wt and wasn't too bad with the gear oil. Most engines are somewhere in between.
I have said my piece about oil. Let the mudslinging begin.
Remember, families and those faint of heart read this forum. Keep the language clean. Don't get too nasty and personal. Leave religion out. Model Ts are fun and model T people are mostly friendly.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 04:37 am:

Dan,being as small as it is, that washer may have been installed on the other side of the ear on the band to compensate for a weak spring which has compressed over time. It may have migrated through the ear under the tension in the spring, which looks a little deformed as well. If you are playing around in there I would be replacing that spring.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 11:25 am:

Good thought Allan... I will inspect it thoroughly.
I have an extra spring as they had a double set on the brake band shaft when there was no band there ... I'll pick the lesser of too evils for now till I order some extras.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 11:34 am:

Wayne, I had the same discussion with my Dad ( age 77) about the oil. He was on the fence about the detergent / non-detergent issue , but I'm convinced that if they ran Castor oil based motor oil in a T, then todays oil cant hurt it . Plus how expensive is 4 quarts of Generic 10/30 weight ? A lot cheaper than a new motor ! My dad's first "car" was a 26 TT truck him and his brother-in-law bought from a rancher up Vine hill road in Scotts Valley (Santa Cruz ). He is still having an issue that I am not running a water Pump on my car with my brand new radiator .....LOL ! I must say I was skeptical , but thermo-syphon works with anti freeze and a new radiator .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 01:10 am:

Dan Kroll:

I can tell you exactly why I put second washers between the spring and the ear of the band. Your third picture explains it real easy. the ear on the spring is so worn over size that the spring is sticking way inside loosing much of it push. I always put a second washer between a spring and a worn ear. I even will often put a washer on both ends of the springs.
NOTE; I use flat washer and much bigger around washers that just fit over the shaft.
I can't believe how many pictures of bands I see on this forum with springs sticking half way through the band ears, sometimes both ends and no one ever says a thing about it.
The small second washer you have on your shaft will DO NO GOOD. All it would do is slip through the ear just like your spring is doing. Either use a bigger washer or throw the band away and get one that is not worn that will hold a spring in the correct place.
NOTE; I always grind a flat on the washer and bevel them so the better fit the bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

It is more usual to put an extra washer on the other side of the band toward the low pedal shaft. This is usually done because of wear on the cams and linings which cause the ears to lean toward the cam when it is adjusted. The washer will center the ears between the pedal shaft and the adjuster. From the picture you posted, it appears that the lining on the low band needs to be replaced. You will notice that lining looks like it is folded under the end of the band or that it is short. Both ends should extend out about 3/16 inch like the other end of the band appears in the picture. If you leave it as is, it could result in the end of the band digging into the drum. The reverse band doesn't look very good either. If you reline all the bands, you might find the washer is unnecessary.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 01:27 pm:

Dave,
I applaud you response, right on the mark!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:39 am:

thanks guys.. good info!


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