Difference between 1923 low and high radiator roadster

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Difference between 1923 low and high radiator roadster
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 04:34 pm:

so what are differences between high and low radiator 1923 bodies? i always thought that slanted windshield bodies were always high radiator?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Minor differences really, liek a bit less wood in the high cowl, but major ones (can't interchange) are the cowl, firewall,dash, hood and of course the taller radiator with the radiator apron over the front crossmember.
1923



1924


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 05:23 pm:

ok, i wasnt even aware there was that much of a gradual transition. learn somthing new everyday!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

Actually, there are several differences besides the height of the radiator. The hood shelves are different, the hood will have dimples where the spring latches hold it down on the high ones, naturally, the hood and cowl are different. Most low radiator models will have a wood firewall although the late ones - 1923's? - may have a steel one. Also, it will be wider on the high radiator one's. I'm also thinking the front fenders will have a lip on the front of the high but not the low. Bottom line: there was a definite change and almost nothing forward of the windshield is the exact same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

Matthew,
Actually there wasn't high and low radiator bodies in MODEL YEAR 1923. Model Ts manufactured before the new model year introduction somewhere in the summer of '23 are generally thought to be the low radiator style and Model Ts manufactured after the new model introduction in 1923 had the high radiator with all the above listed changes. Another way to say this is a Model T manufactured in late 1923 is said to be of the 1924 style and is virtually indiscernable from the 1925 model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 09:03 pm:

Matthew,
Actually there wasn't high and low radiator bodies in MODEL YEAR 1923. Model Ts manufactured before the new model year introduction somewhere in the summer of '23 are generally thought to be the low radiator style and Model Ts manufactured after the new model introduction in 1923 had the high radiator with all the above listed changes. Another way to say this is a Model T manufactured in late 1923 is said to be of the 1924 style and is virtually indiscernible from the 1925 model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 11:29 pm:

Which is this?



My late Dad bought it new in 1923, in western Nebraska.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 12:06 am:

My 1923 touring (April 16) has a steel firewall, as does the 1923 Fordor (June 16). Both low radiator, of course.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 10:56 am:

What interests me in the photos that Ralph posted is the side curtains, and whitewalls too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:02 am:

The bottom right photo shows the hood shelf being straight, so I would say that is a low hood '23 model. ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:56 am:

How quickly cars aged in that era. The lower left pic is my late Mom in her wedding dress, April, 1924.

According to my oldest brother, who was born 9 months after that, the car was a plain jane: no starter or demountables. Would there not have been sidelamps on a non-starter car?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 05:40 pm:

Ralph,

I’ve looked for several years on and off to try and figure out if it was a low cowl or a high cowl roadster that your Dad had. Some additional information – first the easy part.

Yes, folks could purchase the open Ts without starters and demountable rims and they could purchase them with one or both of those accessories. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1923.htm where Bruce (RIP) has: “Note: Starter was an option on the open cars at $65. Weight 95 lbs. Demountable rims were an additional $20. Weight 55 lbs.,” See also the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/299440.html which shows an original Aug 1919 (1920 model year) touring that came with the non-demountable wheels and the electrical system. Similar to today – when folks looked at the “Loss Leader” no-starter, no-demountable rims, and the roadster body, they often would decide that for a little more money they could purchase the better equipped model.

Because of the side curtains, I cannot really tell if the car does or does not have the side lamp brackets. It does NOT appear to have the side lamps installed – those would would be sticking out if they were. But if the lamps had been removed – I don’t know if the side curtains would or would not have covered the brackets. But in this case I cannot see if it does or does not have brackets. Additionally if your folks were in the lower economic part of society like both of my Grandparents were, then even if the car had a starter, by the time your older brother could remember the car it is likely the starter was no longer being used. I still remember my Dad saying that when he was growing up, his Dad never had a Model T that the starter worked properly. That would have been very easy to understand. Batteries cost money and for his family – especially once the depression hit -- anything that was not really needed did not get purchased. The 1923 T would have been in the depression when your brother was 6 or so. Also the common issue with the connections on the Ts – if they are not serviced every so many years there will be some voltage loss and the starter becomes slower and slower and then is no longer helpful. When they were new or when they were (are) properly maintained they work fine on 6 volts. So whether the car was a non-electric starter car and the side lamp had been removed or if it was an electrical starter car and the starter was no longer functional, your brother’s recollection would probably have been “no starter.”

From the photo we can clearly see that the left front wheel is a non-demountable square felloe. Which would agree with your brother’s memory of the “loss leader” no-frills car.

But was it a high or low cowl? You maybe able to help us out with that. Do you know when it was purchased? I.e. did your Dad have the car when they got married or immediately afterwards? If so – what was that date and/or month? Reading the posting it is implied to me they were married Apr 1924 – but if you have a better date on when the car was likely purchased that might be a great help (or not). At: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1923.htm Bruce also states, “The front section of the car was revised about August 1923, with a new and higher radiator, larger hood, a valence under the radiator, and revised cowl section to match. These cars were generally referred to as “1924” models in Ford literature.” So if the car was purchased new – or used before Jul 1923 it would most likely be a 1923 model year (low cowl). And if it was purchased new in Nov – Dec 1923 then most likely a 1924 high cowl model year. And if it was purchase used then any date after Jul 1923 could be either model year. And for the months Jul – Sep – clearly there would have been some overlap when both styles were still available. Was that one month in Aug or several months Aug – Oct, we do not know for sure.

David is correct – if the hood shelf does not have the 1924 model year “dog leg” to match the wider cowl – then it would be a 1923 model year low cowl car. However, I’ve looked at several known 1919-1925 photos today trying to figure out which one your car matches best. Unfortunately most of them do not show that area of the car. They are from an angle or they have people in front of the area we want to see. Of the ones that do show that area – the shadows and angles often make it impossible for me to see the “dog leg” in the hood shelf – in fact a couple of them “look straight” because the angle is flat relative to the bend but I know it is a 1924 or 25 hood shelf with a dog leg.

Ralph, you were kind enough to send me copies of those photos in the past. I’ve looked but I do not know where I have saved them, or if they were lost in one of the computer crashes followed by computer upgrades over the past few years. If you have a higher resolution copy of the two photos that show the hood and fender areas – if you would please consider sending them one more time, I may be able to match them up (or not) to one model year or the other. A 300 x 300 dpi scan would be great – but anything at a higher resolution than the 200kb limit used by the forum should help.

Below are some photos comparing a 1920ish-1923 low cowl slant windshield Canadian runabout/roadster (same dimensions as 1923 USA model year – but with a few other features like doors on both sides). Taken from Jay’s posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/229991.html?1313629423 and it was the first photo he posted.



Note below the bead where the top cowl panel joins the side panel. Also the straight hood shelf – but as stated before that in some of the 1924-25 photos they also appeared straight when we know they were not.





Above is the same photo of Ralph’s Dad’s Roadster compared to a photo of a 1925 pickup truck (cropped from Original Smith's article on the 1925 pickups located in Bruce's CD -- ordering info located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/303050.html ). Again note the same areas - top cowl seam where it joins the side cowl panel.


Also in that photo of the 1925 pickup truck I could see the dog leg in the 1924 hood shelf as well as the shadow from the indent in the hood where the hood clasp goes.



Based on all of that I’m 80% sure your Dad’s roadster was a 1923 model year with the low cowl rather than the 1924 model year with the high cowl. A higher resolution photo or the approximate date he purchased the car and if it was new or used etc might allow us to be 100% sure.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (avoiding yard work)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 06:24 pm:

I've got some more looking at the title on my 1923 touring to do. the number of 818XXX indicates August 11, 1923. I thought it was earlier. It has a steel firewall but low hood. Gator Gould looked at it on the Black Hills tour a number of years ago on our first tour, and said it had components of both the early and late styles, as if they were using up parts. The August date seems late for a low hood production. It must be one of the last ones made. I have to go by grandpa's title numbers, as there is no number on the engine, which was replaced somewhere between it's production and when he purchased it in 1926.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

Noel,

Some additional thoughts about your 818XXX August 11, 1923 date based on the title Model T. Many of the states were not that concerned about the numbers on the titles and for that matter some states didn’t have titles. In several cases they used the engine casting number by mistake as the car’s number. That happened so often that Ford changed the casting dates from being in a row to being in a circle and then discontinued them on the USA production. As recently as 1970 when I registered a VW, the DMV transposed the date of the car (VIN was typed correctly but instead of 1956 it had 1965). When I pointed it out to them they said not to worry about it! So there is always the chance numbers could have been recorded some time in the past. In many cases we will not know for sure if the engine or in this case the engine number was or was not original to the car. But if it is documented back to 1926 or so – that is a lot better than most of us have a history on our cars.

If the original engine was 818,xxx it would have been near the end of the low cowl production, but there also easily could have been additional cars assembled at the various branch plants possibly into Sept. Does anyone have a documented original car or information about such a car (i.e. title & photo etc.)? See the additional remarks below for supporting information about why I believe the car could have easily been built sometime during Aug or even Sep 1923 as a low cowl.

Additional items from Bruce’s (RIP) online encyclopedia:

http://mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#dash
1923
Steel, used with low hood for short time beginning about February 1923. Both the wood and the steel were used concurrently for a time. On April 7, 1923, a factory letter said that all production was then with the steel firewall.


http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc23.htm

FEB 15, 1923 Acc. 572, Box 21, Ford Archives
Assembly and changes letter to the branches states that T-8761B dash (firewall) has been changed from wood to steel. Both types will be coming through in production for about sixty days.


MAR 29, 1923 Acc. 78, Box 47-49, Ford Archives
Metal sill covers installed at rear doors on touring cars, painted black. Rear floor mat changed from wool to rubber.


http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1923.htm

The front section of the car was revised about August 1923, with a new and higher radiator, larger hood, a valence under the radiator, and revised cowl section to match. These cars were generally referred to as “1924” models in Ford literature.

Ford did usually switch everything over at midnight on a certain day. Rather things were introduced at the mian Ford plant (sometime the Canadian main plant) and then if they worked well they were introduced at all the plants after the older style parts were used up within reason. Bruce discusses this at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1921-25H.htm “In our research it has not been possible to pinpoint the actual date of introduction of the new 1921-style open cars. Our best guess is that it was about the first of the year (1921) in spite of the numerous references to the new bodies during the latter part of 1920. Furthermore, there is little doubt that the earlier-type bodies continued in production at the branches for some time after the Highland Park plant had made the changeover.”
Hap again – and we know that the previous style older bodies with the wider arm rests were continued in the Roadsters well after the 1921 narrow arm rest tourings were introduced. In general the touring was changed and then the roadster. For 1915 production the 1915 year model closed cars were introduced before the 1915 open cars.
Later on the page Bruce comments, “The 1921 models came with the new pressed-steel running board brackets, mentioned earlier. These replaced the forged type with the tie rods that had been used since 1909. These new brackets were considerably stronger than the old type. The holes in the side of the frame rails, where the old forgings were riveted, were still present and were to continue for some time.” We are fairly certain that there was a large overlap when the newer pressed steel along with the older cast running board brackets were used. I do not know of a case where both styles were used on the same frame – but if anyone else knows of such a case please let us know.

The 1923 model year began in the late summer of 1922 with the introduction of the one-man top and the sloping windshield on the touring cars. These two changes gave the appearance of a new car but the basic body was the same as that used in 1921 and 1922. The Torpedo (Runabout) appeared a bit later in 1922 and the closed cars continued with no significant changes.
[Hap’s note – another illustration of the runabouts/roadsters lagging the change over date of the touring]. The Runabouts received the new body styling about October 1922 (the date is uncertain). Also at this time the Runabout also received the new turtle deck which was considerably larger and flared upward to match the rear of the body.
Press Release Announcing
THE RESTYLED FORDS
Dated August 27, 1923
Detroit, Mich., August. Introduction of a higher radiator, bringing new and improved body lines to all Ford cars, is announced today by the Ford Motor Company.
[Hap again] I believe the Aug 27,1923 press release would indicate the later part of Aug rather than the first part of Aug for the new styles being introduced. And again, normally there would have been a change over period when the branches continued to use up the stock they had of the older low cowl bodies, radiators, etc.
Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 09:31 pm:

Hap, my Dad and George Sikes, who later became my uncle, trapped muskrats for six weeks on ice skates on the North Platte River in the winter of 1922-3. The money from that venture gave him enough to buy his first car, the 1923 Roadster, so that had to be spring of 1923. I don't know why the side curtains looked so bad just a year later.

That same winter, my Mom was a Sr. in high school, and drove her younger brothers and sisters to school in the Sandhills in a 1918 Touring with a tattered top. Ts were the only cars she ever drove. She told me about the low pedal and the high pedal, and never to push down when cranking. My Dad never talked about Ts.

Thanks for all your interest. I'll send the pix again. They were scanned by another family member, so I can't make them any better.

Sure would like to find that car...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 08:00 am:

Ralph,

If your Dad purchased the car before Jul 1923 it had to be a low cowl roadster (or an experimental prototype).

If you can find the engine number -- then you would have a good starting point for finding the car (or at least the engine). And of course determining the date of the car would have been easier also.... While it is clearly a long shot, some folks have been able to find certain cars. For example my friend was able to track down the 1929 Model A Roadster he dated his wife in while they were in high school. And while it is a Chevy advertisement – I still love the story of tracking down the car at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz-nO6WvOYw For those of us that our car is more than transportation or more than an investment – that is just a great story. If someone has a similar Ford story – please let me know. Ralph is there a chance that one of the other photos of the car might show a license tag number? If so, that might also be a lead on finding the car.

I'll try to zoom in on the photos you send and see if we can make out any additional details.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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