Pictures of why "ALL" lifters have to be Butt, New, or Used!

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Pictures of why "ALL" lifters have to be Butt, New, or Used!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 05:25 pm:

"WE are not talking about cam ground lifters, you will never see those in a early Ford, as T's, A's, or B's.

This is what I have been talking about, why New, or used lifters have to be Butt! I have heard a lot of comments about Adjustable Lifters don't keep there settings, this is why. The high spots wear off, and the gap opens up.

Every Lifter I have ever had, was like this.

No. 1 lifter, .002 off, not done!
No. 2 Lifter, .002 off, not done!
No. 3 Lifter, Not Touched yet!
No. 4 Lifter Finished, both ends!

When you butt the bolt end, don't for get to tighten the lock, if it is that type!




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 05:36 pm:

Herm - For those of us who are not machinists and somewhat amateurs in that regard, could you please explain what is meant by "Butt". Does it simply mean that the surface of the lifter, as shown in your pictures, must be machined flat?

Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 06:02 pm:

You Got it Keith, Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 06:05 pm:

yah the whole butt thing doesnt make sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 06:08 pm:

so by butt means gound flat?

how are you grinding these? surface grinder?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 06:42 pm:

Surface Grinders aren't Made for butting Lifters.

Butting may only make sense to a every day Machinest.

Sounds like another session like checking rods for alignment after machining.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 07:07 pm:

maybe its common in automotive machining, we always just called it facing, or resurfacing.

your grinding marks appear parallel which led me to believe maybe a surface grinder, although i would think that a circular grind pattern would be the best using a cylindrical grinder, or a valve grinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

Sounds like another session with Herm. The master machinist. If you can't answer a simple question why bother?? I'm with matt it doesn't make sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:02 pm:

If you are familiar with the use of a valve facing machine, the same as when setting valve clearances when using non-adjustable followers, they can be cleaned up that way, square to a grinding wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:16 pm:

I'm with Matt too. I've been machining for years and never heard the term Butt applied to an operation. Perhaps it's a "regional" term. :-)

Looks like some of those first ones were done on a sanding belt. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:22 pm:

The problem I see with making the lifters flat removes a built in need for the lifter to rotate. You don't want the lifter to stay in one wear pattern. I think grinding the lifters flat will just shorten the wear life even more.

You probably weren't using ZDDP laced oil. ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:34 pm:

maybe its common in automotive machining, we always just called it facing, or resurfacing.

your grinding marks appear parallel which led me to believe maybe a surface grinder, although i would think that a circular grind pattern would be the best using a cylindrical grinder, or a valve grinder.


We Butt Lifters, valves, some push rods, and rocker Arms.

We Surface, heads, Blocks, and Flywheels, Manifolds.

We surface grind, small macnine tool, and gage blocks.

We use a valve grinder for Valves, lifters, rocker arms.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

maybe its common in automotive machining, we always just called it facing, or resurfacing.

your grinding marks appear parallel which led me to believe maybe a surface grinder, although i would think that a circular grind pattern would be the best using a cylindrical grinder, or a valve grinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:56 pm:

sorry repost for some reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 08:57 pm:

The problem I see with making the lifters flat removes a built in need for the lifter to rotate. You don't want the lifter to stay in one wear pattern. I think grinding the lifters flat will just shorten the wear life even more.

You probably weren't using ZDDP laced oil. ;)


Ken, I don't even have a belt sander, and if I did, you couldn't use is, as there is no way to make the bottom accurate, with the shaft, and there is no belt sander in the world that will make it flat.

Ken, I don't think you even read my post, or just skipped over it. These are NOT CAM GROUND LIFTERS, they never were, and never will be.

Cam ground lifters are not used on T's, A's, or B's. In fact, none of the old engines we work on, have cam ground lifters.

If you knew machine work like you said, you could tell by the marks in the bottoms of the lifters, that the marks are from a cut off tool, in Manufacturing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 12:24 am:

If you knew machine work, you'd know I wasn't talking about the cut-off tool marks.

Forget it. You're looking for an argument you won't get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 02:19 am:

Well Mr. Machinest, if you wern't talking about cut off tool marks, there isn't any thing else there. And if you are looking at No. 4, you can see the arc of a stone, ground surface, as a belt sander surface does not even look close to that.

As far as an Argument, I think you realized you were smoking your socks, and are trying to save face, by saying I am Argumentative!

These kind of lifters are always, and have always been been ground flat. The whole point of the post has been to show that they are not, none of them, no matter what brand. Just like Aluminum pistons used to have expansion slots in the sides, and now some don't. Not because it is better, but because they are cutting labor cost.

So as far as your fact less Opinion goes, My Customers don't care what you don't know, but they do care what I do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Ok,my first google search for Butt lifter came up with this.



But,some more searching found this.This,@*#@_+$ firefox wont let me copy and paste propertys from the webpage.









BUTT GRINDING USING MICROMETER BUTT GRINDING AT-
TACHMENT: To grind valve butt, hold valve firmly on V-rest against
grinding wheel and rotate valve. FORD VALVE LIFTERS: Can be ground
as are the valve butts employing the V-rest.
DRESSING BUTT GRINDING WHEEL: Diamond dresser is posi-
tioned on stud located on side of V-block. Diamond point must not be
above centerline between stud and face of wheel so that if diamond catches,
point swings away from wheel, not into wheel. Diamond is fed into wheel
with micrometer feed nut. Dressing is accomplished by oscillating diamond
across face of wheel. Wheel should be dressed dry.
depth gauge which
BUTT GRINDING V-8 VALVES: The
is a part of the micrometer butt grinding attachment is designed in a single
unit to serve both Model 60 and larger V-8 engines. It is comprised of a
steel shaft, an adjusting valve seat head, and two steel bushings sized to
fit 60 and V-8 engine valve guides.
Use depth gauge to check length of valve, by inserting gauge using
end holding bushing that fits into valve guide hole to serve as valve guide.
With cam shaft and valve lifter in lowest position, and valve seat ground,
lower steel shaft on gauge to touch valve lifter. Set adjustable head against
valve seat obtaining valve length, and screw adjustable head screw tight.
Remove depth gauge, and place in butt grinder attachment as if valve to
be ground. Set the butt end of the gauge so that it just touches highest
point on wheel, and bring valve head fork into support position for the
adjustable head on the depth gauge and tighten in place. Mark micrometer
setting back off, removing depth gauge. Place valve to be ground in butt
grinder, supporting valve head against valve head fork. Start wheel and
feed valve into wheel by taking up on micrometer nut to marked position
plus number of thousandths required for clearance. Repeat procedure for
each valve to be ground.
ROCKER ARM GRINDING: The universal (cone-type) rocker arm
grinding attachment through its popularity has been made standard equip-
valve refacer. With two cones - the rocker arm
ment with the
is held firmly between the two angle surfaces.
To use, mount the rocker arm attachment on forward stud on the
table. Slip the top cone from attachment pin, and place rocker arm to be
ground `on pin, seating lower cone, replace top cone and tighten lock screw.
Adjust the rocker arm to be ground to the wheel in such a way that the
correct radius is obtained when the top table is traversed back and forth
a short distance. Start machine and grind by moving table back and forth
while holding rocker arm lightly against wheel. DO NOT REMOVE more
than enough stock to clean up any pits or flat spots to avoid grinding off
too much of the hard case.
Page 7


Not trying to be a Butt here.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:33 am:

This is interesting, and while it shows (to me at least)some real quality control issues by the lifter manufacturers, I think Herm is using a slang term that may or may not be common. Notice the manual speaks of "Butt Grinding"--and describes grinding the butt END of the valve--which, in the day was the only way to set Ford valve clearances (or one could grind the top of the lifter--which end would be considered the "butt end" of a lifter; the top or the heel??).
BTW, when I was redoing one of my A engines, I set up a jig for grinding the butt ends, but I did it in a two-fold manner. The first grinding I did so that the end was slightly concave. When I got close to the clearance needed, I changed to a flat grind. this left a very small recess in the center of the valve "butt" that my theory would capture a drop of oil and provide a slight cushion as the lifter met the valve. Any thoughts to this? The engine has run just fine & quietly for many years now.
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 12:46 pm:

Mr. Cole, you have made my life easier!

There are always some people who think, just because THEY haven't heard of something, it doesn't exist!

Funny, a post about trueing lifters, turns into a post about a word some people didn't have in there vocabulary, from the school of life!

Go Figure!

thanks Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 02:14 pm:

Mark, like this


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 02:59 pm:

I've been following this thread and the one question not asked/answered is this:
What do I need to do to my new lifters before I install them in my new engine.
Is there something I need to check? Something I need to remachine on my new lifters?
What is the one thing you do that makes the trouble worth the trouble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 04:33 pm:

Read the first Post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 04:54 pm:

All my new valves come out of the box and into the valve grinder. I have found many to be untrue, some unbelievably bad. I have faced off used lifters in the past, now it looks like I should do new ones too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 06:29 pm:

Just to follow up on Randy's post, the last two sets of stainless valves I purchased were a problem. Although they were straight, the faces were nowhere near 45 degrees. I spent an afternoon cutting them down. I understand some manufacturers cut them a degree or two off so they seat better. But these were way off. Its been a while so I can't tell you the angle, but it took me many passes to clean them up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 06:37 pm:

I see the problem with the lifters in the first post but what is the point of coming on like a Storm Trooper about the subject?
I practically grew up in a machine shop, worked there and owned the place.
The only BUTTs we dealt with were some of the customers......thankfully they were few.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

As Randy, and Richard said, Valves are never ready to use out of the Box, they should always be ground, they are not meant to be, I don't know of any good machine shop that will grind a seat, and just drop a valve in with out facing, and Butting. Just face a valve, and drop it on a steel bench, or a floor, and then stick it back in a grinder, and see what it does. That kind of damage could have happened before you got the parts, and often does.

A good rule of thumb is, if it isn't you work, check it, and if it is your work, check it a second time!



I think Herm is using a slang term that may or may not be common.

David, I suppose, Butt, depending on how it is used could be slang, but not the way this is used. If you kick someone in the Butt, everybody should know what that means, and if you kick someone's A%#, and you do it in front of a cop, you could get arrested for Animal Cruelty!

Get a GOOD Dictionary and look up butt, My Dictionary has about 4 inches of fine print, of the same word refers to a given subject. It doesn't have lifters, But refers to up against, to the Bottom, Ect.

You should get a lasting sense out of Mack's post, it says it all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:03 pm:

I see the problem with the lifters in the first post but what is the point of coming on like a Storm Trooper about the subject?
I practically grew up in a machine shop, worked there and owned the place.
The only BUTTs we dealt with were some of the customers......thankfully they were few.

Craig, If you would read all the posts, Nobody knew what the word Butt was. Butting valves, lifters, and Rocker Arms, is what you call the Process. If it's a Spade, you call it a Spade. If you were to dig a bush out, and you needed a Spade, you wouldn't send your Kid after a Shovel!

If we surface a head, or block, we don't ask our customer if he wants his block, or Head smoothed, that could mean we were going to sand the out side of the block.

Butting parts, is in about any engine rebuilding book you pick up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:06 pm:

I have a question...........

When everyting is running and oil is being slung around then the cam and tappets will be coated with oil. How does that cause a problem when the parts are riding on a film of oil?????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:22 pm:

A joint formed by two abutting surfaces placed squarely together. [From butt.] butt joint. butt joint. n. (Engineering So it is two flat surfaces joining one another, or true it up square.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:43 pm:

Because the two mating parts, are not mated. If say the cam is new, and the lifter bottom is not, the high spots will wear, and the over all valve clearance will open up.

So if the cam toe only hits the out side of the lifter, in one spot, pressure will be on just one side, and NOT in the center of the lifter which puts all the first wear on the cam of about 1/8th inch. The lifters are NOT all the same, the point of contact, are all different.

You have to keep in mind, that these were cut off on the bottom, before harding with a cut off tool, that is why they show that kind of marking on the bottom, and are not true.

I am sure, probably 99 percent of all T, A, and B lifters were put in as is, and many sets of piston rings, with out gaping. I have always said, engines will still run wore out.

Just depends what you are Satisfied with!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

Is a wedgie considered a form of butt lifter?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:34 pm:

I dont know Ted but I do know I dont like them.Specialy when the stretchy stuff snaps!
I only found what I posted by googleing.I was not the least bit aware of what the term meant.

It is kinda like the b word for female dog.Among the dog kennel and breeders,it is used like any other word.I consider it offensive regardless of the setting the word is used in.But there is some cases it is acceptable.I was not offended by the Butt word.But I googled it because I had never saw it used in that way.

I guess we could go to Lowes or Home Cheapo and ask for a certain file by the B word.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 12:55 am:

Is a wedgie considered a form of butt lifter?


No, I don't think so, Ted, I think it is more likely to Part, Spread, or Divide!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 01:06 am:

One more thought, the people that have never heard of the term Butt, There are many KINDS of Grinding.

1. Cam Grinding----A Grinding of a cam!

2. Crank Grinding-----A Grinding of a Crank!

3. Flywheel Grinding----A Grinding of a Flywheel!

4. Head and Block Surface Grinding-------Surfacing Head, and Block!

5. Butt Grinding--------Grinding the ends of valves, lifters, Rocker Arms

Doing that job, just does not go by any other name, there are lots of different kinds of grinding, but that is the only one that fits that job.

When ever you true an end of something, you are Butting it! Ok Boys, try to prove me wrong, that is the only chance some of you will have to learn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 02:35 am:

No wonder there are so many "lurkers" on this forum that prefer NOT to post. There's always somebody trying to start trouble or pick a fight!

"Ok Boys, try to prove me wrong, that is the only chance some of you will have to learn."



Ken Kopsky's last comment was absolutely right!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:23 am:

Seems nobody else here has heard of that term. It is a likely a geographic anomaly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:41 am:

This from the Sioux Tools “Valve face grinding machine” instructions . . .
Valve Reconditioning
1. True Valve Stem Ends: To insure proper valve
operation, square valve stem ends after dressing right
grinding wheel. Remove only enough material to clean
up the valve end. See Fig. 5. Renew chamfer with
chamfering vee. The chamfer need not exceed 1/32
inch (1 mm), but must clean up completely. See Fig.
6.

This from the KwikWay pamphlet . . .
“Stem end grinding, chamfering and rocker arm grinding features are all standard”.
(but they also mentioned “Butt End Grinding” at the bottom of the page.

This from the K-D Instruction book for Ford V-8 85, Mercury,
Lincoln Zepher, Ford 6 cyl, Ford 4 cyl and Ford Tractor . . .
“Stems must be ground square and parallel or valve noises will develop”

From Automotive Technology: A Systems Approach, Volume 2
“Valve tips are machined after valve face is refinished”

From Misc.
Stems - Grinding machines can be fitted with special attachments used to grind valve stems. While they should be reconditioned,
valve stems should be ground as little as possible, as excessive grinding can lead to increased wear during use.

”Another area on the valve that must be attended to is the valve stem. This is due to wear from the valve operating mechanisms.
When the tip end of the valve stems is rough, smooth them by grinding lightly with a special attachment furnished with the valve
grinding machine. Grind as little off the stem as possible. Many stems are hardened and too much grinding results in rapid wear
when the valve is returned to service. Generally, cut the same amount of metal off the face and stem. This helps to keep the valve
train geometry correct.”


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 01:43 pm:

Mr. A.J., now for you and your Machinist clueless Want-A-Be's.

Google this, "Butt Grinding Valves" , if those few hundreds of references to what Butt means isn't good enough for you, you are not worth my time to teach you.

Oh, and Harold, that is all right, I except your humble apology!

So Ken, who turns out to be the ignorant one!

There are always the few on here that want to pick something apart, that have nothing but there ignorance to use for a back up.

Good Grief.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 02:38 pm:

I have read enough, I think I will butt out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:29 pm:

You must be mistaking me for someone who wants to argue the point, or even has an opinion. <@^@> . . .
The quotes above are mainly from the manufacturer’s literature. Relax - your terminology got a mention!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:50 pm:

Herm,
Thank you for pointing out what to look for in reproduction and remanufactured parts. Please do not stop.
We all need to tell the suppliers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:51 pm:

You have nothing to argue with.

And the Books that came with those machines, have a whole lot more pages then the couple of paragraphs you listed, where did you learn that trick, from MSNBC, or CNN!

So Bell, you are trying to S@#$ the wrong Guy!

I will say it again, Google --"BUTT GRINDING LIFTERS", Thats the end of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 04:01 pm:

I don't understand why so many on this forum want to argue with Herb's advise so many times. If you ever visit his shop you would see that he knows more about Ts than just about anyone on this Forum. Listen to what he says and practice it, I certainly will. For instance, I have seen him walk into the babbit room with 300 rods gutting ready to pore. How many can say they do that many rods in a life time, let alone at one time. Herb was trying to give us some good advice but instead of listening to the advice some wants to start a dumb argument over nomenclature.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 04:04 pm:

Well, while I found (find) the thread very educational, and I will pay closer attention to the valve train when I do my next engine--BTW how much grinding can you do on the FACE of the valve lifter before you go through the surface hardening?--I do see a flaw in your "Butting" term justification:
By your logic, Crank grinding would be called "Cranking," Cam Grinding would be called, "Camming" etc. etc. :-)
I have no problem with you using the word "Butting" --however, to put us down because WE have never heard of the term is just unkind. It is a slang term, and slang terms are often industry specific, area specific, and even individual shop specific!
I do want to emphasis that MY feathers are not ruffled by all this--in some ways it is humorous, in other ways it shows the various strong personalities in our group. But primarily, it showed (at least to me) that one cannot assume a part is made correctly. Check & Verify!
Don't forget, one can spot a T owner--they are usually cranky and trying to start something!
:-)
Have a great Labor Day (when most folks avoid labor--what's with that??)!
:-)
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 04:27 pm:

"BUTT GRINDING LIFTERS" makes sense. The title of this thread is what didn't make sense,......"Pictures of why "ALL" lifters have to be Butt, New, or Used!"

Most of the controversy in this thread was caused by the fact that the title just said BUTT, and of course it must be realized that most of us don't have the extremely high degree of machine shop knowledge and intelligence of the author.

I DO apologize for adding to this thread, which could have been much more informative if it had not been purposely designed with built-in controversy in order to promote a means of self-gratification in the form of a display of the authors need to hear himself say something as stupid, irritating, insulting and antagonizing as....................

"Ok Boys, try to prove me wrong, that is the only chance some of you will have to learn".

And,....Mr.K,.....I sure as hell won't apologize for anything else!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 06:36 pm:

Well Harold, from the P.M. e-Mails I have gotten over this thing, a Butt word, there is a hand full of you that are on your own. A small Minority.

It would have been nice for them to post them here, but I under stand.

Some of you boys don't get it, and never will.

Butting metal is, what it is, and all your misunderstanding facts will not change that, and you may not use that term under your favorite shade tree, but real engine builders do.

"Ok Boys, try to prove me wrong, that is the only chance some of you will have to learn". End Quote.

Thats Right Harold, you, and the hand full can run your mouth with out facts, I say, put up, or shut up.

Post on here where you can find anything, contrary. I didn't start this, I made my post, and then, it was turned to a word, that People didn't know, because they are not around the things am. That in its self is alright, but don't try to blow Smoke up my A^$, when you don't know s$#@, from S^%#@*(.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 06:53 pm:

Its OK to spell Shinola . . . . . isn't it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 06:59 pm:

Herb Kohnke:

I hope you keep posting, I for one welcome your posts. Its too bad that a few seemed to always like to dispute every thing. Information like the lifters is what I read the forum for. It would have been one thing to argue over the merits of your post but to argue over a word was stupid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

I'm gonna' do just exactly what you just said Mr. Konhke; I am hereafter going to "shut up". I happen to know that you are very highly respected by folks that I have high regard for, for the fine work that you do, however, to match wits and mince words with you on this forum is a waste of everybody's time including yours and mine. I don't know about others, but quite frankly, I can't quite figure out where you're coming from and what you are trying to accomplish with most of your posts. I do know that quite often, when a certain type of person cannot write intelligently enough to get other people to understand whatever point(s) they're trying to make, they just get mad. Last thing I want to do is to encourage anymore of that sort of thing to contaminate this wonderful forum any more that this thread has already done. You'll hear no more form me no matter how many more insults you feel the need to convey.

Have an nice day Mr. Konhke and a pleasant holiday.


Sorry guys,....this guy just wants to argue and he'll get no more satisfaction in that regard from me; I've said too much already but I just couldn't let it go! While I apologize to you all for the above, I do pride myself in avoiding any direct insults, profanity or name-calling,....just use your imagination!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 07:28 pm:

Even HERMs' definition is good by me, but for the unknowing masses here the title shouldve read 'BUTT GROUND' to clarify things. The main DIS-contributors are the ones that start a thred like "my oil plug is rounded off..." or things like NC, NF, and NPT.
Its about as inocuous as using "coloring" when buffing parts like brass or during plating steps. There are a few people here that do need their butts buffed tho. troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 07:46 pm:

I get a lot of good mechanical tips from Herm. He is an outspoken, colorful guy. But so what?
He more than makes up for it in the information he provides.
I personally know of a well respected Model T engine rebuilder here in the foothills that is very respectful and appreciative of Herms advice and help in spin pouring rods.
I think we should give him a little slack. It'd be a shame if he were to quit posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

"There's no substitute for experience; its' the best teacher." Dad 1970

I have a friend that became rather "dis-enchanted" shall we say about the attitudes and mores of this forum, and removed himself from membership, yet still recommends reading it. I am truly surprised that Herm hasn't pulled the plug as well, but after speaking with him personally on the blower, his response to my query was that $hit runs downhill. He personally took an hour to shoot the breeze by phone with me while explaining the whole mag coil spacing debaucle as I was sitting on a chair facing it following his step by step instructions.
The next time I'm out in Claire, I'm looking him up for lunch and taking the pickers too. I'm sure that those who deserve will get some hot ears! troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 11:36 pm:

I coulda sworn I just read someone elses asking the question but I cant find who now.
But any how,I have allways thought the lifter was hardened on the surface that rubs the cam.I would think if a person ground off to much,it would be soft and wear quicker unless the entire lifter is made of hardend material.
Also,I read the " trueing lifters" part of a sentance above.I must admit,not being a machinist,I woulda been more apt to understand the subject quicker.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:34 am:

Herm,
You mentioned early on in your posts that surface grinders are not made butting lifters. Your grinding machine makes for an easy job of correcting the lifters, valves and such. I'm quite familiar with this machine,even this model. I don't own one, but I do have a tool room surface grinder in my shop.
I've been a tool and die machinist for many years now and I have a question for you:

If I was going to undertake grinding lifters for myself,I would do it with a precision V-block or possibly a 5-C collet in a holding block/jig made for holding the said collet. This would provide squareness to tenths of a thousanth of an inch, and a great finish.

Does the valve grinding machine's finish (as shown in your photos) provide a finish which is more suitable or superior for the application?

Possibly, I've missed something that is obvious(?)

Thanks Herm for your opinion on the subject.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 01:24 pm:

Mack, that was me, and unfortunately that question was buried in my posting with other stuff--so, I think that both your (& Mine) and Darren's question needs answers:
1) How much can safely be ground off the cam lifter heel before the hardening is lost?
2) What finish is the optimum finish for the lifter's heel?
and hmm, 3) best way to provide an accurately "square" surface to the lifter body?
I ask this last one as I could put the lifters in a collet in a friend's Harding lathe and run a carbide tool across the heel, but maybe that would not be a smooth enough surface?
The valve ends & the bolt tops are small enough surfaces that I believe an accurate V block would provide a precise enough surface. But I could be wrong!!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 01:58 pm:

Dave, Thats a BUTT. Dont you dare call it anything else or you are a BUTT HEAD. There is only one word for things in this world no matter where you live or grew up. The dictionary should remove most of the words so we wont miss quote anything ever. And there is only one way to make a perfect part.
So please get your Butt out of your A$$ and fly right.
Most machine shops will call butting a facing cut.
An automotive shop may call it butting as the old books say so and thats fine. But we know that the big book has many words in it.
So we can stay in the 18 century or adapt to the modern world. Both terms are correct and lots of us know that.
And yes all parts should be checked if you want long life out of them. I check every part on all my work. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 02:34 pm:

Scott,
I thought I was being diplomatic by avoiding the word! :-)
So much for being PC! (Which I seldom am. . .)
Now how about answers to the important questions?
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 03:04 pm:

David, Yes the v blocks are just fine. As we know the lifters and valves are in bores and have clearance or they would stick. So with that in mind the lifter, valve will have some rock to it. It is verrrrry little but machining [ butt-face] within tenths is very close. Cutting with carbide is not the way to go. Grinding is best. Now all my parts are heat treated and case harden. I call out hoe deep I want the case. The deeper it is the more it cost and the more the part is going to warp in the process. The part is heated to around 1750 degrees and keep there for around 4 to 6 hours. My guys do a very good job on racking or hanging the parts and they come out very nice. But I only ask for .010 to .015 deep. So you can see how muck there is to grind off. Lifters are made out of stainless and you can not case harden they. So grind away on the stem. But the lifter should be cased. Cased, my word for case hardening and I will accept other words for the same job. Not all material can be case hardened and I dont know what the suppliers are using and Iam sure it varies. Did I leave anything out? I have thick skin so blast away if you know what you are talking about, Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 03:27 pm:

Uh, Scott, you say lifters are stainless & can't be case hardened, and then you say they should be? I guess a magnet would tell me if they are stainless or not? It sounds like there isn't much depth to the hardness though!
Maybe I should dig out my toolpost grinder and do them in my lathe? Or check yard sales for valve grinding machines--so many auto parts houses are getting out of that part of the biz, there's likely to be some around!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 04:23 pm:

David, Opps on my part. Valves are stainless not lifters. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 04:39 pm:

if the lifters are hardened i would imagine that with such a small flange like that they would be hardened through and through?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:04 pm:

Matt. It depends on what material they use. Some steels are thru hardening and some are surface hard and soft core. 8620 and 9310 can be 58 - 62 rockwell on the surface and 20 - 40 on the inside. That is good gear material. 4340 is hard all the way thru and will shatter if you made gears out of it. I saw a top fuel hydro explode a set of gears made of 4340 on the second pass. Case can be as thin as .005 and still work very well. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

huh, i didnt know you could surface harden steel without casehardening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:55 pm:

Matt, You are right almost. 4340 will come up to 52 rockwell but if you dont apply case it will have no wear factor. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 06:25 pm:

what would you make lifters out of if you had the choice?

have you ever seen lifters with the furnace brazed material on the ends? im not sure what the material is though.

although ive also seen "chilled iron lifters"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 06:44 pm:

Matt we are talking Model T here. Chilled iron as I know it is a process of drawing cast iron out of the furnace and chilling it as it comes out. It makes very dense iron and it is very stable. It is used in mold making a lot. I would think its great stuff for the job. If I was making lifters for my self I would use 8620, case hardened and grind to size. But it cost more and that why china sells a lot of stuff over here cause we like to save money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 07:10 pm:

Darren Wallace, as a tool and, die man, I know you know how the surface a lifter end, as you know, all it takes in some one to surface the lifters to a 90 degree to the lifter body. I just use a valve grinder, on the attachment side, as that is what I have.

If I done it on your surface grinder, you would have to show me how, or it would come loose also, and be flung through one end of your shop wall!

Thanks Herm.

The finish, as you know, should always be smooth, the finish that is on the finished lifter, is smooth, and is as smooth, as before I started, but now, it is also flat. The marks in the finished lifter bottom, can be seen, but not felt with the finger nail, it is smooth to the touch.

I will say again here, that all lifters I have ever put in, repro's, that is, are all the same way. Stock Ford lifters were straight, and flat.

Again we remove only, 2 to .004 thousandths normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 07:19 pm:

While attempting to separate the pepper from the fly poo in this thread....which is not so easy for me since I am neither a machinist nor engine builder....I did notice what I found to be an intriguing matter raised which I do not believe was addressed.

The matter:

Do the lifters need to rotate in order to avoid uneven wear? And, if they do need to rotate, does squaring the ends inhibit or promote the lifters rotating while the engine is running?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 07:24 pm:

Mack,

But any how,I have all ways thought the lifter was hardened on the surface that rubs the cam.I would think if a person ground off to much,it would be soft and wear quicker unless the entire lifter is made of hardened material."END QUOTE"

The lifters I grind, I check with a file before, and after, there is no difference, they are HARD. I don't think the lifters are surface hardened, and if they are, it goes very deep. These are Bob's Lifters, and they are of the Highest Quality, and I will not use any but his from now on. Thanks Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 07:36 pm:

Bobs lifter? tell me more about these,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 07:53 pm:

just went and dug out 7 original ford lifters. definetly were not rotating!

although im thinking im going to collect up a bunch of original lifters and regrind the faces, and drill and tap the ends and make adjustables aout of em.

i realize i could just buy them but this would be more fun and satisfying. plus how many of you have ford script lifters!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:02 pm:

Do the lifters need to rotate in order to avoid uneven wear? And, if they do need to rotate, does squaring the ends inhibit or promote the lifters rotating while the engine is running?

Lifters in a Model T do rotate, being flat, while they are not a Rotating lifter per say, they do Rotate. The sharp toe of the cam, and a flat lifter are a match, in more cars from 1950, down, then any other kind.

Case in point, I have never tore a Motor down, that didn't have flat lifter bottoms. If they didn't turn, they would have big gullys in them.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

Matthew, good luck with drilling, and tapping, they may be a little hard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:16 pm:

Kohnke, If Bob,s lifters are so great why do you have to fix them? If I had to redo new parts I would send them back and get good ones or my money back or my labor for fixing them. And yes I think you are right that the lifters do rotate even thou they have no crown and modern ones do. I think that the lifters are centered over the lobe in a T and offset in modern motors. Is that right Kohnke? Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:19 pm:

yah im interested to see just how that goes, i just checked them with a file, they are pretty hard, but not super hard. if worst comes to worse ive got a good selection of carbide.

a couple of these have some nasty wear on them from staying in one place. who knows how long the engine ran for that these came out of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:56 pm:

Thanks for clarifying Herm.
I thought maybe there was some reason(I wasn't aware of) for the specific type finish. I find that there's always some interesting point to learn when we are all talking about T's,motors, machine shop theory, antiques, etc...
It's nice to have the right equipment for the right job.Your grinder is the same one a friend of mine has. He has some really neat shop equipment specifically for engine rebuilding,babbiting, and even some great stuff for just model T repair specifically.

You mentioned flinging stuff off of surface grinders......I've done my share of that....:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 09:08 pm:

Scott, I don't know about modern Motors being off set, I am sure you are right, but when you get past the 1960's, I have no idea.

We work on stuff, no body else will touch.

Now Bob's lifters, as I will say again, NO lifters for Model T, A, and B, have been as good as they could be, for smooth, and straight ends. Scott, if you are looking for Perfection in parts, I never have found any, on those kind.

With that said, Bobs lifters are other wise prefect. It is NOT uncommon to Butt lifters and for sure all Valves, even Modern valves we use, none are as good as they could be, no big deal.

Thanks Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:13 pm:

I suppose this isn't the time or place to say that the lifters at one time were case hardened in a basket in a cyanide bath at ???? degrees. (It's been 37 years since I put any steel in a soak to case harden it). At any rate the one thing I learned when cleaning the case hardening bath never blow the dust on the top off with an air hose. Typical tolerance on a case hardened part is usually within a couple thousands of .015". And if your curious I think they're checked on the Rockwell "N" scale using a standard Rockwell tester with a diamond cut specific to check to that scale. Many case hardened parts are ground to "true" them. Shafts are centerless ground, flats and blocks are surface ground and faces are butt ground. This is coming from a very old memory that hasn't done any machining since 1978 and it probably shows. Herm's nomenclature is correct. However everyone had the right to take exception with it. But don't treat Herm with disrespect because of the things he says. He's a super mechanic that's been in the business longer than most of us and the terms he uses were terms proper to his profession when he started and he still uses them in his shop and in most older "manual" shops you'll still find them being used. Herm, I appreciate having you on this forum and really appreciate your teaching methods and what you teach. I wish I wasn't retired and I was about 45 years younger because I'd be honored to be accepted in your shop and to be an employee of yours. When I went to school to become a tool and die man, my instructor was very strict that we use proper nomenclature when speaking in his shop. And then he's turn around and call a micrometer a mic and hell most of you clowns call a digital caliper a mic. And I'd give anything to watch some of you read a vernier caliper. I've gone from slide rule to calculator to computer and beyond. Change with the technology but don't throw away the knowledge because of it. Ok my 2 cents worth. I haven't been on this forum for a week and probably won't be back again for awhile and therefore wrote enough to last. Now if all of you would pull your collective heads out of your butts we can get on with the teaching and learning.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

Oh and by the way, when you launch a v-block off the magnetic chuck on a surface grinder you usually have a good excuse for changing the wheel. And before you change the wheel you have to ring it to make sure it's sound. I know, I've seen it done. I'd never admit to doing it myself but I did put a notch in my belt after destroying a brand new wheel on a large Blanchard grinder. And then I changed it and the next guy in line cracked that one. You have to turn those magnetic chucks on!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

just when the conversation was getting productive.

why the hell would you stir the pot by insulting people by calling them clowns!

Herm is obviously a great source of knowledge, there was some dispute over terminology but thats over, and now we are discussing lifters and there manufacture, if you would like to contribute productively do so, but if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 12:19 am:

Here we go again. Mr Maiers, thank you for censuring me. I didn't mean anything by what I said. And I deeply apologize for it. I meant it in jest because I have seen a lot of young engine builders call a digital caliper a micrometer. I realize it's not there fault they don't know what they're doing but I just thought I'd put in my shots. Especially at one particular builder who lurks on this forum a lot and is very guilty of doing it. I tease him about it every chance I get because I know I can get away with it and he doesn't become insulted. I also apologize for not backing off when I should. I thought there was some question about case hardening and the fact you can grind some of the surface down and still maintain the hardness. I'm actually surprised I found "dished" lifters in my own '26 T. I'd also like to add that if you're going to try to cut case hardened material with carbide be sure it's the right grade of coated carbide and keep the coolant on it. You're the one who brought up the idea of checking hardness with a file and I made an attempt at letting the people of this forum aware that the correct way of checking case hardening is on a machine called a Rockwell tester. I know I went way overboard showing off some very old knowledge that almost gave me a headache to drag out but I figured what the heck everyone else get to show off their knowledge on here and this was my chance to show some of mine. I apologize for that too. From now on this is your forum. Treat it with respect and I'll go lay by my dish again. God bless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:16 pm:

There's lots of people on this forum. Just like any cross section of folks, some are mild mannered, some use only proper English, some don't punctuate well, some are indelicate with their words, others more polite. This is just part of the human condition. Let's try to realize that we all have different ways of expressing ourselves and not look for a chance to be insulted.

True, some comments are "over the top" and those probably deserve some question. However, let's try to not be too sensitive when others don't express themselves the way we might.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:34 pm:

David Dewy,

No, you can't use a magnet to tell if a material is stainless or not.
There are a host of different stainless materials, and quite a few even just used for engine valves.
"Austenitic" stainless are non magnetic and do not respond to normal heat treating,(heat and quench). An example used widely for exhaust valves is 21-4N. That and other similar grades often have a disc of hardenable steel welded to the tip for wear resistance, or in cases where the valve had "butt locks" ( Oops, there is that word again ), locks that do not grip the valve and lets it rotate freely, a carbon steel stem is inertia welded to the stailess head, so that the area of the lock grooves can also be hardened for resistance to wear.
A "martensitic" stainless steel is magnetic. Some, like "Silchrome XB" was used in exhaust valves, but has been more common in intake valves as modern engines run hotter with much higher specific outputs. In my opinion "Sil. XB" would make a good exhaust valve for a T engine, and yes, - the tip can be hardened.

Mathew David,
A "chilled iron" wear surface on a tappet is hard (no pun intended) to beat for wear and scuff resistance, as the surface is full of carbides. The only surface i can think of that could beat it would be a ceramic (yes, that has also been used, but not in high volumes). Chilled iron is created in the casting process. The molten iron is poured into the mold with chill inserts in it where you want the chilled iron microstructure to form. These inserts will typically be copper, in order to very quickly draw the heat out of the iron at the surface as the iron solidifies. Some tappets did have a chilled iron disc silver soldered to a steel tappet body. The slant 6 Mopars used a lot of those.

FWIW
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:47 pm:

yah as i remember when i relaced the cam in my 390 FE the lifters had silvered or brazed ends on them. always wondered what the material was.

cast iron is pretty amazing stuff as far as wear goes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 08:44 pm:

every one was off!


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration