Manifold leak, JB weld?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Manifold leak, JB weld?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 12:33 am:

We have a small (but annoying) exhaust wanifold leak on the K. It is just a tiny "slice" of space toward rhe rear cylinder. Would a small dab of JB weld work?

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 01:11 am:

No........it won't take the heat.
Try some muffler cement.
With the engine cold, wet the offending area, do what you have to do to get some cement in there and let it cure according to directions.
It's quite amazing stuff....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 01:13 am:

JB weld is supposed to be good to about 500 F. The exhaust gas is much higher then that, I would bet is would not work. There are some exhaust pipe sealers around, maybe if it would stay in place it may work.

Maybe something like this would work, it is supposed to be good to 2400 F
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_7160074-P_x _x

Jim


Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:53 am:

I have used Lab Metal for similar repairs, thermo weld as jim suggests would be worth trying too.

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 10:25 am:

A good high temp RTV will work if you disassemble and clean all the surfaces completely. I don't think anything will work just squirting it on the problem, adhesives need clean shiny metal to adhere properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 05:24 am:

if the cracked or damaged area is accessable, you could pre heat the manifold by running the engine lean, getting it bright and hot, and shut it off, with the nickel rod / arc ready and zap fix it , re start the engine, re heat and should be cured !!!
If you cant get a nickel stick to it, then sorry.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 07:08 am:

Rob,

I’m sorry to hear about the leak. If it was an exhaust manifold for a Model N, R, S, SR, or T I would recommend trying to fix it yourself with one of the above suggestions. However, new reproduction manifolds are available for those cars. In the case of the K, I do not know, but I would suspect there are not any NOS or reproduction manifolds available. I would also guess the number of used manifolds would be very limited. Historically cracks continue to grow under normal usage i.e. heating up cooling down and the normal vibrations from the engine running and road bumps. Based on all of that, I would want to find and hire someone who is experienced, recommended, and has a good track record of successfully repairing exhaust manifolds and the repair lasted under additional use. I.e. if the car isn’t run but put in a museum, then the repair is not really stressed again.

I’m sure you will have some additional recommendations and hopefully some of them will include some recommended people to do the repair. On John Myers’ HCCA related site at: http://www.horseless.com/parts.htm he has a listing of some folks that do repairs – scroll down to the heading RESTORATION. I would think contacting the HCCA folks and/or the EFR folks might produce several great repair shops/people for an exhaust manifold repair.

If you want to try it yourself – I would recommend obtain a couple of Model T exhaust manifolds with a small crack. Repair them and test them on your T. After you confirm you have the knack for it or that you don’t then you could decide what to do with the K manifold. Note in the recommendations above I did not see any that suggested stop drilling the crack. I am not that familiar with cracks in exhaust manifolds, but for most of the other repairs for cracks in metal that I am familiar with recommend stop drilling both ends of the crack. Also I would recommend limit the engine running on the K until it is repaired. Good news, you have a several other great cars to choose from until it is repaired.

Good luck with the repair and please keep us posted on how it all comes out.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 10:37 am:

Have it metal stitched....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:03 pm:

I think you need to see what the problem is. Maybe you just need to machine the surface true, or maybe the block is not true. I don't think RTV or lab metal will solve your problem. If its a crack then metal stitching would likely work. The best way to fix a crack would be to get someone who knows how to and is equipped to weld cast iron (Jack Zerkel?) to repair it and then machine it true.

Hap's correct, you have a treasure here and you need the best repair that's practical.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:05 pm:

Another thought, you might make a soft copper gasket for the manifold with a little thickness so it can compensate for some mismatch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

Thanks guys. The leak is between the jug and manifold at the back. Dean yoder put some material in but it cracks and the leak resumes. It isn't bad enough to pull off the manifold, just a tiny crack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 04:54 pm:

General question -- won't exhaust gas leaking between the manifold and the cylinder eat the gasket away (I have seen it do that) and then start to eat away the cylinder port and exhaust manifold port? I think the answer to that is yes -- but I do not have any personal experience with that one.

Rob,

If it is leaking between the manifold and the engine cylinder (they were cast as single cylinders) then normally either the surface on the cylinder (i.e. the same area as the T block) or the surface on the manifold are not lining up properly. That could be because one or both of those surfaces is not flat. It could also be the same thing that happens to the Model T exhaust manifold – it has warped and the holes are no longer in a straight line from the beginning to the end of the manifold. (On the T number 4 exhaust tend to drop down. For an example of what I am talking about please see: the Tulsa T Site about how to straighten the T exhaust manifold at: http://mtfctulsa.com/Tech/manifold.htm . Again, rather than trying to do that yourself for the first time on the K manifold – I would recommend hiring an expert.

Note depending on what is causing the leak – you can sometimes add a gasket, or add a crush gasket to that one port, etc. But if you continue to let it leak --- I have seen it the gasket. I also believe, but do not have personal experience that if left unchecked the exhaust gas will begin to eat away at the exhaust port (block on a T – jug on the K) and the exhaust manifold.

T items are probably too small for the K (they work nice for the N,R,S,& SR) but you could have something similar produced for the K. See the T rings and glands at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/3063-64.aspx as well as the flat style gaskets at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/3063-3.aspx also available with copper on each side at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/3063MC.aspx Again you will probably need a larger version or individual flat gaskets for each cylinder.

Note if the ports are not lined up properly you could possibly shim the cylinder(s) to make them higher so the exhaust ports lined up. You could also probably have a an adapter machined that would fit into the cylinder exhaust port and have an offset to match the port on the exhaust manifold and then use the flat style gasket over the port(s).

Again there are multiple options and it might even be as simple as replacing the exhaust manifold gasket and lining up the ports better (I’m usually not that lucky when it comes to exhaust manifolds lining up – but you can check it out and you maybe that lucky.) Again, you have a beautiful car and repairing that leak should make it trouble free (ok trouble free for a 1907 vehicle). Best of luck.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 04:59 pm:

Rob, I would braze it up and machine it down square with the other port runners. Welding cast iron is a bad idea as it will crack close by the weld. Brass will hold up to the heat of the exhaust, will discolor dark with time and the cracking problem will go away. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Sometimes I post before I notice I forgot to type what I had been thinking. If the manifold is not flat – it can be resurfaced by a machine shop.

If the manifold is flat and the cylinder ports are flat the problem might be related to the following GUESS: Because the cylinders are installed individually onto the block, I would GUESS they may have some amount they can be rotated. “IF” that is the case, then loosening the bolts holding the rear cylinder might allow you to rotate it so it lines up better with the exhaust manifold. I have not worked on a K so that may be “out to lunch” but it was a thought I wanted to pass on. Related item – loosen the appropriate nuts/bolts on both cylinder and manifolds equally.

Respectfully added,

Hap 1915 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 06:56 pm:

Cast iron gas welded WITH cast iron does not crack and in old, burned out, manifolds it sometimes is the only way to save them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:02 am:

I would get a piece of lead,like a old tire wieght,and beat it thin,then peck it in the crack with a punch and then mushroom it around.the lead should take some heat and it is soft enough the pecking should form it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:06 am:

Oh and btw,JB weld,and liquid steel from napa,wont take the heat.
I used some of the permatex liquid steel from Napa for a strange job and thought it would work.I have a dog bone on my TT radiator and on top I have a eagle from a small trophy bolted on as the motometer would be attached.Well the kids at the event I went to at the local gold mine a few months ago musta twisted it alot and striped it out.So I put a glob of liquid steel on the bolt and crammed the eagle over it.Held good till I got the truck good and hot.it was soft and wouldnt have took much to make it fall off.Just the heat from the radiator made it soft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:14 am:

Mack, you need a water pump to keep that TT cool. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:24 am:

Thanks guys. Oh, by the way, K's (all Ford pre-Ts) have water pumps :-).

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:29 am:

It dont git that hot.Thanks to someone here on the forum a few years ago selling me a good flat tube radiator for 75 bucks.That was a blessing.I reckon I shoulda said,once it got to operateing temp it made the stuff soft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:51 am:

You could try wood stove cement/sealant, comes in a tube like caulking compound and is rated to 1,000F. I used it to fill and seal a pitted block surface where the exhaust manifold bolts up to a post-war Mopar flathead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:18 am:

I have used the metal composition gasket material from the local auto parts store with good results. The link shows a picture of what I use. Cut to fit. If the manifold is really bad, double them up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:19 am:

Oops, here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHEET-METAL-EXHAUST-GASKET-MATERIAL-GASKET-CARD-PACK-/22 0521429127


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration