Old Photos, Series with some of the same car.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Old Photos, Series with some of the same car.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 07:00 am:

A few days ago, I posted the photo shown at this link-
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/308809.html?1346329765

I recognised the name of the photographer as one that I had seen a few times before, Lindsay Cumming. When Peter Kable posted another photo on the same thread, it set me wondering, is it the same car or not. Well it definitely is the same photographer.

The Museum of Victoria has this to say about him- "Cumming lived in Alexandra and set up a studio and bike shop in the main street ca. 1910, he was later a bee keeper and he ran a Ford dealership. His photographs document the history of the Alexandra district between ca. 1910 and ca. 1950."

Interestingly, the curator seems to think that if Cumming photographed it, then it had to be a Ford car, so there are quite a few other makes labelled as Fords. However, I tracked down some more interesting shots.

The one below is obviously taken of the same car as my first posting and if I am not mistaken, the same location-



Here is the same car, in a flood, with a nice snake on board-



Now we come to the car that Peter Kable posted, but taken at a different location, apparently before the parade-



Although I must agree that the two cars are very similar, I can't be certain that they are in fact the same vehicle.

Curiously, there are two very similar photos apparently in the same location as the 'pre-parade' one, showing a much later car, so presumably taken for another parade a couple of years later.







All of the photos are credited to Lindsay Cumming, or Lin Cumming, and are located in either the library of Museum Victoria or the Murrindindi Library.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 08:51 am:

I believe it is the same car, modernized with black era radiator shell and front fenders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:09 am:

Good work Dane, I thought that the photo of the two woman in the car on the road was the same just a crop of the car for the close up but obviously 2 different photo's.

Seems the car was just sitting on the road as its in the exact spot, does look like they were driving at speed though.

The photo in the flood must be the earliest as the T has not yet received its custom paint job. As Royce pointed out it then got a make over with later radiator and mudguards (sorry fenders).

Wonder if the T was Mr Cumming's personal vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:16 am:

Royce and Peter,

You could both easily be correct that the dealer as the owner of the car continued to upgrade a single 1915/16. It would have been a lot less expensive to purchase “at wholesale” the radiator, radiator shell, fenders, and splash aprons and have them installed verses the cost of a completely new car. And in the case of Henry Ford who obviously could afford to take any new Ford off the assembly line for himself anytime he wished, he apparently liked to upgrade his “older Fords.” For example on page 482 of Bruce’s (RIP) out-of-print book Henry Ford’s personal roadster was manufactured May 14, 1909 and it was converted into a Coupe on Oct 27, 1909 and then became a chassis only in Nov 1, 1910. And a case could be made that the 1909 Ts were in short supply is why he did that rather than just take one of the new Ts. But he also did a similar thing with his personal Model T coupe which he had upgraded over the years. He used that T for approximately 10 or so years. It is now probably still located in the garage at Fair Lane [which I just leaned is now closed to the public while it is undergoing some renovation] see: http://www.henryfordestate.org/mfmodelt.htm It has a 1926ish engine and wire wheels (but the small drum rear axle), nickel radiator shell and headlamp lens.

But as a dealer there is also the possibility that he had several cars made up the same way. For example the street scene that shows two identical Model N Fords – same paint scheme, no side lamps, and a single spot light mounted centered on the dash. If we saw a photo of the cars individually we would think they were the same car, instead the dealer prepared them the same way.

In the photo below [from:
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemLarge.aspx?itemID=388098 -- cropped for research use ] you will notice the three 1915-16 Canadian Fords in Australia are all 3 equipped with an accessory hood. It blends the brass radiator to the body rather than to the original hood former. And while the tires appear different on the car on the far left, all the cars are very very similar. And if we saw them by themselves with the same person in them, I would logically think they are the same car. But with them lined up side by side – clearly they are three different cars.



And even in modern times, the 1000 or so 1966 Hertz “Rent-a-Racer” Shelby GT350 H Mustangs –were/are difficult to tell apart when they were finished in the same general paint style see: http://mustangs.about.com/od/1966mustangmodelprofiles/a/1966-gt350h.htm

A couple of clues that might help us. What about the license tag rules in that area of Australia back then? In the case of my current state, South Carolina, when I sell a car I either put the license tag on my next car (saves time and money) or I turn it back to the state (or pay a fine). However in other locations (some states in the past) and I believe in the UK also – the license plate stays with the car and is transferred to the new owner. And of course we also have the manufacture’s plates in the USA – which is why the plate “5M” Michigan apparently appears in different factory photos of different Model T Fords see it on a 1926 coupe on page 379; on a 1926 Tudor on page 407; of Bruce’s out-of-print book also on his CD. In this case we know the cars are different and that the 5M plate is the manufacture’s plate that is swapped from car to car. [Note: There is another 5M tag on the 15,000,000 Model T as it rolled off the assembly line – but it appears different from the one on page 379 & 407 so I would guess it is a different year tag. For additional information about the Michigan Manufacture plates see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/188393.html?1297083292 and read the info on the license plates – Thanks Erik Johnson for posting those details!] And in some locations they also had dealer plates – which again would be moved from car to car.

So does anyone know what type of license plate the 1915-16 touring car(s) in the photos have that both have the number 10361 on them? And note that while the numbers are the same 10361 the plates appear to be slightly different with the car in the water having a more “ornate” font while the brass radiator but light color and striped car on the road has a more plain font for the license tag numbers.





Also note that the parade cars when the front area is visible do NOT have a license tag (the light colored one with the stripe or the second one in the same photos). I cannot tell if the steel radiator shell car does or does not have a license tag.



Note in the “zoomed” in photo above on the steel radiator car, the car appears to have a dark painted steering column gear case. In the USA that was typical of the early 1917 production. I do not know if it was or was not typical for early 1917 Canadian production. But in the previous 1915-16 cars – we do not see a dark colored gear case. [note in the lower resolution photo of the steel radiator car it does not look as dark on the gear case]. But an early 1917 car would have likely had the equal length hinges and riveted windshield brackets like the 1915-16 cars.

So it clearly could have been a repainted [including the steering gear case] and upgraded with fenders car. But could it have possibly been a dealer that liked that paint scheme? Or – was the dealer actually selling 1915-16 cars that were left over and “flooding the market” by initially upgrading the paint job and then later additionally upgrading the radiator, fenders, hood, as well as the paint job paint?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 04:07 am:

Hi Hap, Yep! It could have been all those scenarios or the cars could also be one of the optional versions offered here in Australia.

With different parts changed (note also the seats which appear to have either new covering or covers of material similar to the roof) it may be a more expensive model than the base "Universal" car - a Sydney, Melbourne, Peace model but cheaper than the top line "De Luxe."

The general rule here for the number plates (tags) is they stay with the car, though you could possibly retain them if you needed depends on the rules in place then. So a new owner may now own the same car with plates. In the early 1920's the plates were often painted by a sign writer so the different font may be the choice of another or original owner???

Wonder if we will ever know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 04:28 am:

In NZ the plates stay with the car EXCEPT for the dealers who are issued with "dealers plates" which can be legally changed from one "unlicensed" car to another.

Admittedly the plates that I am familiar with are of a different colour to normal plates and I do not know how it worked back in the early 1900's.

Did a similar system operate across the ditch ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 08:47 am:

Here is a newspaper ad from the

"Alexandra and Yeo Standard and Yarck,Gorur,Thornton and Acheron Express"

(That has to be a contender for longest newspaper name)

At the time Touring cars were advertised at 250 Pounds with starter.

Seems Lindsay Cumming added a bit extra maybe it was for the paint job etc???
cumming


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